What is the next ‘big thing’ in keyboards?

[niacin]

16 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I wish Apple made a workstation 😀 Like: integrate Logic Pro, MainStage, iPad, Mac, AppStore and their expertise in making intuitive and usable products into a sleek keyboard with great touch and feel and some revolutionary stuff only Apple can do. 

 

And there’d be no headphone out 🤦🏻 .

Then they could follow Korg’s lead and put out a you beaut version 2 special edition in puce with a headphone output and charge $1000 for the upgrade 🤗

[niacin]

2 hours ago, CHarrell said:

 

It wouldn't give them any chords or anything, it'd just be like this guy and he'd pop up in your DAW: 

Nah, it’ll be “Hey Jackass, it looks like you’re writing a bridge, that’s so last century.”

 

Other prompts will include “Hey Jackass, it looks like you’ve modulated up a semitone, what is this, an 80s ballad?”

 

”Hey Jackass, that looks like a guitar solo, that’s so last century.”

 

”Oh awesome, a harpsichord part, going back to the 1960s are we?”

[PianoMan51]

Alexa, I want to make some fresh music to go with my homework Vlog. I’m thinking the first section of the 2nd Movement of Tales From Topographic Oceans, but played by an early baroque orchestra. Just repeatedly play the backing track and I’ll sing some melody lines until I find a good one. Then you can add the melody in my voice but as a counter-tenor with Swingle Singers type ‘doos’.

[Tom Williams]

More wish than prediction: Physical (not Analog!) modeling: reed instruments, plucked and bowed strings, brasses.  We were promised that in the 90s and 00s, and Yahama and Alesis nearly delivered, but they never made it accessible -- Fusion's AM parameters made a DX7 look intuitive and easy.  I want to be able to say "base pitch Bb, .375 cylindrical bore" and get a good trombone.  Add conical bore and get a tenor tuba or euphonium.  Put a large double reed mouthpiece on it and get Schickele's TromBoon.

 

Couple that with a new implementation of Roland's SuperNatural that incorporates aftertouch, and I'll take you to the moon and back.

[MathOfInsects]

The only presets on the front panel will be for harpsichord patches.

[Paul Woodward]

4 hours ago, Tom Williams said:

More wish than prediction: Physical (not Analog!) modeling: reed instruments, plucked and bowed strings, brasses.  We were promised that in the 90s and 00s, and Yahama and Alesis nearly delivered, but they never made it accessible -- Fusion's AM parameters made a DX7 look intuitive and easy.  I want to be able to say "base pitch Bb, .375 cylindrical bore" and get a good trombone.  Add conical bore and get a tenor tuba or euphonium.  Put a large double reed mouthpiece on it and get Schickele's TromBoon.

 

Couple that with a new implementation of Roland's SuperNatural that incorporates aftertouch, and I'll take you to the moon and back.

God, I loved my Fusion 88. Never really explorer it fully. Was a glorified stage piano. 

[stoken6]

6 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

the first section of the 2nd Movement of Tales From Topographic Oceans, but played by an early baroque orchestra

 

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

The only presets on the front panel will be for harpsichord patches.

@PianoMan51 Find a cello, you've got your continuo.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Tusker]

I'd like to see a class of professional stage piano + laptop controllers, optimized for both tasks. Most typically they will have:

 

- a gig-adequate piano sound

- a high quality action with AT (perhaps poly AT)

- knobs AND nine sliders (for synths and b3)

- trigger pads (for loops and hits)

- two continuous pedal inputs

- an audio interface

- a ribbon or x-y pad, and

- the usual mod and pitch wheels

[CyberGene]

12 minutes ago, Tusker said:

- a gig-adequate piano sound

- a high quality action with AT (perhaps poly AT)

- knobs AND nine sliders (for synths and b3)

- trigger pads (for loops and hits)

- two continuous pedal inputs

- an audio interface

- a ribbon or x-y pad, and

- the usual mod and pitch wheels

 

Fantom 8?

[AUSSIEKEYS]

What is the next ‘big thing’ in keyboards?

 

Im just awaiting the keyboard that can factor World Peace. 

 

The Peacephoniam

[Konnector]

This is really big 

 

[Tusker]

8 hours ago, CyberGene said:

 

Fantom 8?

 

It's a very good workstation but I am talking about the replacement of workstations here. They try to do too much in an age of laptops and tablets. Consider:

 

Fantom 8 is 61 lbs.

RD2000 is 47 lbs.

RD88 is 29 lbs.

 

RD2000 is closer to the spec I am thinking of. It lacks the trigger pads but it has everything else.  But (imo) it is still on the heavy side and it attempts to control zones that a laptop or tablet would. It's a competent master midi controller and like all master midi controllers it's great once you have set it up.

 

But we don't need master midi controller functions as much we used to do we? 

 

I am suggesting that we need to go backward a bit to figure out how to go forward. Remember the days when we did have these master controllers (Peavey DPM C8, Roland A-80 etc.) and a rack of modules? Today a tablet or a laptop can be that rack of modules but it can also handle the master midi controller functions; zoning, layering etc. All we need is a "simple" keyboard with ergonomic, high quality controls.

 

Do less. Do it well.

[Docbop]

22 minutes ago, Tusker said:

RD2000 is closer to the spec I am thinking of. It lacks the trigger pads but it has everything else.  But (imo) it is still on the heavy side and it attempts to control zones that a laptop or tablet would. It's a competent master midi controller and like all master midi controllers it's great once you have set it up.

I think the weight of the RD2000 is due to the 88 wood hammer action keybed.    Seems like everything with woodkey keybeds are heavier. 

[Tusker]

18 hours ago, Tom Williams said:

I want to be able to say "base pitch Bb, .375 cylindrical bore" and get a good trombone.  Add conical bore and get a tenor tuba or euphonium.  Put a large double reed mouthpiece on it and get Schickele's TromBoon.

 

+100

 

Loved the Yamaha pm instruments. Today I use this pm instrument in Reaktor ...

 

 

You can pick different mutes and body sizes. You can shift some formants and make your own instrument. It doesn't have the reed part ... yet though. 😅 

 

This is why I am fan of keyboards which play nice with laptops and tablets.

[Ibarch]

1 hour ago, Tusker said:

 

It's a very good workstation but I am talking about the replacement of workstations here. They try to do too much in an age of laptops and tablets. Consider:

 

Fantom 8 is 61 lbs.

RD2000 is 47 lbs.

RD88 is 29 lbs.

 

RD2000 is closer to the spec I am thinking of. It lacks the trigger pads but it has everything else.  But (imo) it is still on the heavy side and it attempts to control zones that a laptop or tablet would. It's a competent master midi controller and like all master midi controllers it's great once you have set it up.

 

But we don't need master midi controller functions as much we used to do we? 

 

I am suggesting that we need to go backward a bit to figure out how to go forward. Remember the days when we did have these master controllers (Peavey DPM C8, Roland A-80 etc.) and a rack of modules? Today a tablet or a laptop can be that rack of modules but it can also handle the master midi controller functions; zoning, layering etc. All we need is a "simple" keyboard with ergonomic, high quality controls.

 

Do less. Do it well.

 

It depends on what you want it for. 

 

I want a single board that I can take gigging without having to use a laptop. I absolutely want real time control of zones, above most other things. One of the main reasons for upgrading to a Fantom 08 from the RD-88 was to get 16 zones instead of 3, with fadars and on/off switches per zone. 

 

I want a sequencer and/or audio recording when working on arrangements in practices, to record that new riff we've just put together. Has to be quick and simple to use. 

 

I want pads to play drum tracks when putting new songs together in my studio. I want full Daw integration and midi control for this too. 

 

I want a fully weighted keyboard that plays like my Bluthner real piano or even my Kawai digital but I want it lightweight so I can carry it, even with my bad back. So I've compromised here but I'm OK with that so long as I don't swap straight from the piano. Fantom 08 is 30 lbs, with same keybed as RD-88. 

 

 

So what will the future be? 

 

 

I like the direction Roland is going with the Fantom and Fantom 0 series. Concentrating on working with DAWs, not trying to replace them. Keeping enough functionality on board to be useable but leaving some heavy lifting for the laptop. Seemless integration so it doesn't feel like two separate worlds. They've not got it perfect yet but it is a pretty decent effort. 

 

I don't see generic hardware with plug in tablets being a thing.

 

Midi controllers arn't going away but they arn't going to kill off the dedicated boards, too many people don't want the hassle of a computer/tablet. 

 

I don't think there is a big enough market for full workstations as of old. Their day has gone.

 

However, the workstation will live on as a workstation lite with DAW integration. They have a big future ahead and will only get better. Maybe even so that most Pro level boards become like this as standard. 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

On 10/12/2023 at 3:53 AM, CyberGene said:

I wish Apple made a workstation 😀 Like: integrate Logic Pro, MainStage, iPad, Mac, AppStore and their expertise in making intuitive and usable products into a sleek keyboard with great touch and feel and some revolutionary stuff only Apple can do. 

Oh god please no.

[Tusker]

6 hours ago, Ibarch said:

 

It depends on what you want it for. 

 

I agree with your taste and approach for your particular use case. You would like to have a product which suits your needs.

 

So would performers who use laptops. At the moment they have to choose between over-spec'ed heavy workstations, slab stage pianos which lack interface elements and the dinky studio keyboards which are often not up to gigging.

 

Increasingly we see more laptops on stages. Keyboard manufacturers can profit by more directly serving these musicians with appropriate products. 

 

[Ibarch]

3 hours ago, Tusker said:

I agree with your taste and approach for your particular use case. You would like to have a product which suits your needs.

 

So would performers who use laptops. At the moment they have to choose between over-spec'ed heavy workstations, slab stage pianos which lack interface elements and the dinky studio keyboards which are often not up to gigging.

 

Increasingly we see more laptops on stages. Keyboard manufacturers can profit by more directly serving these musicians with appropriate products. 

 

 

Are you asking simply for better Midi controllers? I agree completely that there is a lack of quality in the current crop and plenty of room for improvements in their integration with computers and tablets.

 

I don't see these as being replacements for workstations, as your post seemed to suggest. 

 

Midi controllers meet different needs and I see them co-existing alongside workstations and simpler all in one boards, as 3 distinct categories. 

[Paul Woodward]

Would be great if you could buy a controller keyboard from a manufacturer with your favourite keybed. For example, why no RH3 controller from Korg? I would take that over Studiologics offerings anytime. Pretty sure they could get a 73 near to 10 kilos. Does seem that you need to buy a piano to get the action you need. Same with waterfall keybed, can’t find a decent controller with that keybed.

[Ibarch]

23 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Would be great if you could buy a controller keyboard from a manufacturer with your favourite keybed. For example, why no RH3 controller from Korg? I would take that over Studiologics offerings anytime. Pretty sure they could get a 73 near to 10 kilos. Does seem that you need to buy a piano to get the action you need. Same with waterfall keybed, can’t find a decent controller with that keybed.

 

Yes, it would be so much better if this were possible. I've spent half a lifetime on stunted, cut down versions of flagships only because I needed to keep the weight down. If I could have swapped the super heavy weighted keybed with the lightweight keybed but kept everything else, I would have done it in a flash. Even paid a similar price. 

 

Why does the manufacturer think that if you want a lighter board you want their budget version with one third of the spec? Or if you want 73 keys then you must be after a synth action?

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

Pretty sure they could get a 73 near to 10 kilos.

I'd love that, but I don't think the RH3 goes "that light". While Casio, Yamaha and Kawai all have 12kg-ish hammer 88s in their portfolio, Korg have always been in the 18-20kg range. Even their 73-key SV1/2 and Grandstage are 17kg. 

 

But in principle, I agree - more competition for Yamaha CP73/YC73 and Studiologic Numa X. (I'm excluding TP/100-based boards like the Electro HP because I detest that action). 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Paul Woodward]

24 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I'd love that, but I don't think the RH3 goes "that light". While Casio, Yamaha and Kawai all have 12kg-ish hammer 88s in their portfolio, Korg have always been in the 18-20kg range. Even their 73-key SV1/2 and Grandstage are 17kg. 

 

But in principle, I agree - more competition for Yamaha CP73/YC73 and Studiologic Numa X. (I'm excluding TP/100-based boards like the Electro HP because I detest that action). 

 

Cheers, Mike.

My bad, I was getting confused with the SL88 I had which was 13kg, but that was the TP100 you clearly detest…I wasn’t that keen on it. At one point I almost bought a Korg D1 as it was the nearest option to getting a RH3 controller (and the piano sounds come in handy), but not enough controller features. 

[Tusker]

4 hours ago, Ibarch said:

 

Are you asking simply for better Midi controllers? I agree completely that there is a lack of quality in the current crop and plenty of room for improvements in their integration with computers and tablets.

 

I don't see these as being replacements for workstations, as your post seemed to suggest. 

 

Yes, I am asking for a specific set of features in controllers to make gigs simple for laptop keyboardists who are increasing in number. A piano sample in the controller may help sell it because many keyboardists believe that laptops are prone to failure, while in my experience with three different laptop rigs, they aren't. I won't be using the piano sample. I'll be using Pianoteq.

 

Many of us continue to own workstations but sometimes those workstations stay at home due to weight issues or because we need something specific that a workstation can't easily provide (physical modeling or unique libraries). Like your Blüthner my Steinway stays at home. The best alternative for me is Pianoteq. No hardware digital piano comes close. Why? Take a look at this velocity response curve in Pianoteq:

 

 

With most stage pianos, you have to calibrate your action to the instrument. With Pianoteq the instrument calibrates to you. It's personal. It fits like a glove to your way of playing. There are many valid reasons why musicians may prefer workstations and also many valid reasons why musicians may prefer to add a laptop. We could debate those reasons for days.  But in an increasing number of use-cases the laptop IS replacing the workstation keyboard. I am not saying it should or shouldn't. It just is. The workstation keyboard is not destined for extinction or near extinction ... if it evolves.

 

The Fantom 08 ( not the Fantom 8 ) has many of the controller features at an easily giggable weight. Perhaps Roland is listening...

[Motif88]

15 hours ago, Ibarch said:

 

It depends on what you want it for. 

 

I want a single board that I can take gigging without having to use a laptop. I absolutely want real time control of zones, above most other things. One of the main reasons for upgrading to a Fantom 08 from the RD-88 was to get 16 zones instead of 3, with fadars and on/off switches per zone. 

 

I want a sequencer and/or audio recording when working on arrangements in practices, to record that new riff we've just put together. Has to be quick and simple to use. 

 

I want pads to play drum tracks when putting new songs together in my studio. I want full Daw integration and midi control for this too. 

 

I want a fully weighted keyboard that plays like my Bluthner real piano or even my Kawai digital but I want it lightweight so I can carry it, even with my bad back. So I've compromised here but I'm OK with that so long as I don't swap straight from the piano. Fantom 08 is 30 lbs, with same keybed as RD-88. 

 

 

So what will the future be? 

 

 

I like the direction Roland is going with the Fantom and Fantom 0 series. Concentrating on working with DAWs, not trying to replace them. Keeping enough functionality on board to be useable but leaving some heavy lifting for the laptop. Seemless integration so it doesn't feel like two separate worlds. They've not got it perfect yet but it is a pretty decent effort. 

 

I don't see generic hardware with plug in tablets being a thing.

 

Midi controllers arn't going away but they arn't going to kill off the dedicated boards, too many people don't want the hassle of a computer/tablet. 

 

I don't think there is a big enough market for full workstations as of old. Their day has gone.

 

However, the workstation will live on as a workstation lite with DAW integration. They have a big future ahead and will only get better. Maybe even so that most Pro level boards become like this as standard. 

 

Sounds like many of us are looking something between or a merge of the Roland A-88 MKII and the Fantom 08.

[HammondDave]

Voice controlled AI interfaces that allow the musician to easily combine and texture sounds and effects into performances. Imagine commanding your Siri in the Montage to call up all the synth sounds from “Africa” and split them on the keyboard.  And maybe mixing in some piano to one of the sounds.  Boy, would THAT save programming time.  
 

The  technology is here… why not implement it? 

[Tusker]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

Voice controlled AI interfaces that allow the musician to easily combine and texture sounds and effects into performances. Imagine commanding your Siri in the Montage to call up all the synth sounds from “Africa” and split them on the keyboard.  And maybe mixing in some piano to one of the sounds.  Boy, would THAT save programming time.  
 

The  technology is here… why not implement it? 

 

 

That's really exciting! It could be a similar AI to how Ozone will already adjust your track to sound more like the reference track you provide.

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

That’s why I suggested Apple, they have it all. Besides, they also have the entire music in the world, so you can ask the AI to match sounds from given songs, for instance. 

[Artomas]

TL;DR - (OMG just kidding, this is the exact opposite of TL;DR) A future keyboard's synth architecture might work (if not look) something like Synplant 2, only it would use additive synthesis with very many partials, each with pitch and amp envelopes, instead of the 2op FM that Synplant uses. This hypothetical synth would have both analog and digital audio inputs, so that you could play a sound into the keyboard, and the onboard AI would analyze it and then formulate a bank of synthesized sounds that are "genetic offspring" of your input sound... IOW, this would be similar to how Synplant functions in its resynthesis screen... except it would have a better synth engine. Additive with physical modeling benefits.

 

Paragraph won't make sense unless you're famiar with the synths I mention:

A modern rompler synth, like the Wavestate, might be able to mimic many of the resultant sounds of an AI software like Synplant... if you have all the time in the world to program all the nuances manually. In order to match a typical weird glitchy evolving (as you pull out the tendrils while in the "green eyeball" screen) Synplant style sound, using the Wavestate synth instead, then usually you'd need to sequence A LOT of tiny snippets of different waves, with just the right shapes, crossfades, timing, and then you'd have matched a single tendril from the Synplant green eyeball, which is based on a single node/seed that you'd selected from the page that has the resynthesis itinerary. But what if I wanted to put a different tendril on each key key (which Synplant can do), using polyphonic aftertouch to trigger that note's tendril to expand? With the Wavestate, I could make 4 sequences total (there are 4 layers), and it would take forever, if I even could match the sounds from Synplant.

 

I was playing the CK88 along to Ben Jordan's Synplant walk-thru... and I definitely disagree that any modern rompler can cover any sounds you'd want. He was playing sounds you'd find on the ghost ship from Alien, and then turning short voice and dog samples into dozens of outrageous new instruments. Some of them had nice timbres. You'd still have to develop a knack for getting to those sweet spots efficiently, just like with a normal synth... but that skill is closer to the skill of prompting, refining, and selecting from any AI, as opposed to being similar to the skill of programming a synth... except for the ear, the listening aspect. That's the same.

 

Right now, with 2op FM, it's amazing what it can do (the Nonlinear Labs C15 is 2op FM too). I think it'll be more widely appealing when it includes additive synthesis with either "moving partials"... or alternatively, many many partials, and many envelopes, which can fire off different partials thru time. And karplus-strong synthesis (very fast tuned delays with filters in the feedback) to add the resonant body that additive sometimes seems to lack, and convolution to give the sound a fake sense of place in space. A developer would have to refine the kind of machine learning that Synplant uses for its resynthesis, by quite a bit... but that's the way things are heading.

 

I think, then, we could have a keyboard, or a Lumatone or whatever, that has something that works like a Star Trek "sound replicator" as its onboard synth. There would be a ton of presets of course, or you could start with your own seed sounds. I'd love that. I'll probably be dead before that happens.

 

What we'll probably get, instead, is the continued slow iteration of each manufacturer's same old sounds, except the keyboards will be able to project holographic emojis, like a happy face for a major chord, or a bouncing excitement smiley for lydian, and so on. There's been a tiktok thing where a person pretends they're a NPC, and they'll act out, and speak, the emojis their viewers send them, along with real money tips apparently, via chat. Maybe instead of holographic IRL, the first of these keyboards could project the emojis into tiktok world. People could tip the keyboard player for playing the right emojis and making it sound good too. This could be a brave new way to be a pro keyboard player - busking emojis on tiktok. I like my other idea, about the sound replicator keyboard, better, frankly. It would be so difficult to design - maybe AI could design it🤣<=that would be a pitch-shifted chord, with a fizzle and a flutter at the end, maybe? Man, even an emoji keyboard would take a lot of work to make all the presets, and people would still complain...

 

[Artomas]

In the above, I didn't mean to imply that the C15 would be getting additive synthesis. I meant that AI resynthesis will get more realistic results if they can incorporate that kind of additive synthesis, in addition to FM and physical modeling.

[DmitryKo]

21 hours ago, Tusker said:

Today I use this pm instrument in Reaktor ...

 

 

 

 

Is that Dannerberg Brass library?

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/reaktor-community/reaktor-user-library/entry/show/13607

 

Do you use a wind controller to play it?