DmitryKo

If you think you have a defective cooling fan, take your Montage M back to your dealer and have them inspect it and replace if needed. But if they say it's allright, you need to start assessing the noise at the exact same moment you're playing the actual keyboard, preferably with your headphones or speakers on, and stop monitoring it from another room. Hell no, each to their own: engineers design digital musical instruments, 'pro users' whine and rant.

Desktop PCs have several different cooling fans for PSU, CPU, and GPU (if you have a discrete graphics card), the latter two with variable rotation speed controlled by temperature response curves in the UEFI BIOS / firmware. None of these fans are heavy enough to cause any vibration - what you're hearing is likely an increase in airflow when a higher rotation speed kicks in at some point.

It's just your thought process is too rigid and not flexible enough to synthesize these two concepts into a brand new and exciting one 😂 I'm pretty much enjoying my 320 years old piano technology, 60 years old analog subtractive synthesis technology, and 45 years old digital frequency (phase) modulation and sample-based subtractive synthesis technologies, thank you very much. What is the purpose of overquoting a post from some other forum when it essentially copies everything posted in this exact thread? Too much information for you to handle in absence of a Computer Science degree?

You do realize it's a stock photo by a Brazilian photographer who deliberately set this prop on fire then Photoshopped smoke and flames on top?

Here's a picture of a novel digital musical instrument that had two cooling fans: NED_Synclavier_II_rear.jpg Modular synthesizers, music samplers and most other studio equipment had cooling fans for ages, and I don't recall any of the users obsessing about fan noise, they were busy recording great albums. End of story for me. It's air movement, nothing else. The main board does have a dedicated voltage converter IC for the fan (TI LM73606, ICE02), so I guess Yamaha could implement fan curve settings in a future update. It's a 50 g part, with a 15 g plastic blade assembly - that's not going to cause any vibration in a 300 g metal cover attached to a 18 kg chassis, unless the fan is not properly secured, or the DC motor becomes defective. In my experience, even when the bearings wear out, the blades simply stop rotating. Montage M power consumption is 36 W, same as your wallmart phone charger - have you ever heard about overheating issues with phone chargers? Yamaha PA-500 is rated for 60 W, so it's working at half ot its rated load in the Montage M.

Probably a cost/supply issue. I didn't hear anything about PSU reliability problems on the original Montage, but finding a replacement Yamaha PA-500 unit would be much easier. Even if you're going to spill liquid on the keyboard, a sealed external-type PSU is not going to make much difference. PSU voltage of 24 V and the 5.5 mm DC connector are likely fixed, changes would require a new revision of the AJK daugherboard with different voltage regulator cuircuits, and Yamaha rarely makes such revisions (if ever). FYI the PSU in the original Montage supplies three voltages (+5 V, +15 V, -15 V), so it has to use an internal JST connector. PSU type is not fixed, 24 V is an industrial standard and there are a lot of suppliers for both external brick type PSUs and industrial PSUs; but procurement costs are probably a pretty big issue for such a low volume production as a top-end music synthesizer keyboard. Please share your procedure for "detecting the difference" - does it involve SuperMan Vision? 😆

Not the rear, you need to get close to the keyboard to hear the noise on the Montage M (and the original Montage does not have any fans). But yes, it's not audible from a normal playing position, and hitting your actual keys would make considerably more noise.

They are back in operation after getting some investment from a Hong Kong company that actually produces all Modal hardware. Modal Electronics is back under new ownership structure of Alltronics Holding Ltd https://synthanatomy.com/2024/05/modal-electronics-is-back.html Modal Electronics completes strategic restructuring and commits to sustainable transformation of the brand and the product line https://www.modalelectronics.com/modal-electronics-completes-strategic-restructuring-and-commits-to-sustainable-transformation-of-the-brand-and-the-product-line/

FYI I've uploaded high resolution photos to Wikimedia Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Yamaha_Montage_M7_(ser._no._JCDN01001)

Thank you, Paul - this was surely as interesting to read as your previous take on the SWP70 in the original Montage! I wanted to, but forum software would downsample the hell out of any uploaded photo, removing all fine detail 😐 Block diagrams would be more interesting to peek into, but unfortunatly the Montage M service manual has not leaked yet.

5. Tone generator / effects processor and flash memory configuration is an extension of the original Montage, with a primary SWP70 with 4 GBytes of flash memory for AWM2 preset wave data (~10 GBytes when uncompressed to 16-bit linear format), (new) a secondary SWP70 with 4 GBytes of flash memory for AWM2 user samples (~3.75 GBytes, no compression used), and a secondary SWP70 with no flash memory for the FM-X engine. These three are the exact same YWM832-C tone generator as used on the original Montage, MODX/MODX+, and Genos2 - not an updated version with more polyphony or additional sound engines, as speculated in an earlier thread. 6. Finally, the CPU is an Texas Instruments Sitara AM5728, which includes several dedicated processing cores: Dual-core ARM Cortex A15 MPU (1.5 GHz) Dual-core TI TMS320C66x DSP (750 MHz) Quad-core ARM Cortex M4 IPU (213 MHz) Dual-core PoverVR SGX544 GPU (532 MHz) In absense of new or updated dedicated DSPs onboard, the AN-X synth engine is very likely to run on the CPU and/or TMS320 DSP cores. Which probably means Montage M could be extended to include other 'software' engines like VL/VP, and that Yamaha seems to have gone the relatively unlikely 'software' route for new development, instead of relying on proprietary DSP hardware. That's all for today.

3. There are two high-end audiophile grade DACs on the main board, 32 bit 192 kHz Texas Instruments PCM1795, and an 24 bit 192 kHz PCM1804 ADC. So analog conversion moved back to where it was on the Motif series, which is fine because all connections to amplifiers on the analog I/O board run balanced audio signals. For those who still complain about 'typical Yamaha' sound which is supposedly 'thin', 'sterile', 'plastic', 'lefeless', 'not fat / phat' or whatever, please stop listening to Youtube videos through your boombox speakers and get yourself some decent wired headphones, like Sennheiser HD-560S/6xx/660S2, Sony MDR-7506/7510, Beyerdynamic DT770/DT990 Pro, or at least Superlux HD681 (if you're on a budget); it makes a ton of difference even without audioplile DACs / amplifiers. 4. There is Yamaha SSP3 which is the same "DSPMixFx" effects processor and USB audio controller used in Steinberg UR-C series audio interfaces (UR22C/UR24C/UR44C/UR816C). Just like on the original Montage, the USB TO HOST interface is USB Audio Class-compliant and supports 32-out (16 stereo) / 6-in (3 stereo) channels at 24 bit 44.1 kHz, and 8-out (4 stereo) / 6-in (3 stereo) at 24 bit 48, 96, or 192 kHz.

Hi all, I've just received by Motif M7, a Japanese market model - so I had to open the case to confirm actual PSU rating (which is easy if you follow the service manual for the original Montage, or the Motif series). This is what I've found. 1. In spite of the voltage label that says "~100 V 50/60 Hz", the internal PSU is an universal switched power supply rated for ~100-240 V 0.15 A. Curiously, in place of an industrial PSU that was on the original Montage (CoSel LDC30F), this time they installed the Yamaha PA-500 - a brick-type external 24 V PSU for P-series digital pianos and PSR-E series home keyboards, complete with IEC C7 connector and IEC C8 plug on the cord. It's wrapped in a strip of protective foam material and held to the chassis with metal brackes. The power switch has a built-in solenoid that can be engaged from the main board; this is part of EU regulations that mandate auto power-off, and the time of inactivity can be set on the Utility / Advanced screen. 2. The CPU cooling fan is a slim 80x80x15 mm 24V DC industrial ball-bearing type (XFan RDL8015B2). Though it's a standard voltage-controlled fan, I don't think the main board includes any means to control the rotation speed, it just spins at a constant rate. If you really want it, I guess you could drill additional holes in the main board cover and install a bigger 90, 100, or 120 mm fan; the top cover clearance should be enough to use a standard part with a height of 20 or 25 mm. However 24 V DC rating is unconventional comparing to standard PC fans which use 5 V DC, and the connector is 3-pin JST-GH (1.25 mm pitch) rather than standard PC motherboard 3-pin Molex type, so it would be challenging to procure from consumer stores. Not to mention that the whole idea of fan replacement seems like overkill, as you will only hear the fan if you rest your head directly on the keyboard. If you have no experiece repairing home electronics or custom buiding desktop PCs, you can easily damage surface-mounted components on the main board, which is not really repairable.

Yes, polyhpony and timbrality is the question. I don't think physical models are fixed to any dedicated BCM chip - at least Roland refers to a dynamically allocated polyphony and not some fixed number of voices per each engine (unlike for example the Yamaha Montage/MODX). FYI there are four BCM (Behavior Modeling Core) chips in the Fantom, as was confirmed in that article - these are embedded CPU/DSP processors which run Zen Core sample-based SuperNatural synthesis, ABM (Analog Behavior Modeling) emulations, V-Piano modeling, and n/zyme wavetable/analog synthesis. I thought Fantom-0 uses the same number of BMC chips... does it? I couldn't find whether BMC chips were ever employed for ACB (Analog Circuit Behavior) emulation in other products. At least Fantom-0 has the same maximum polyphony count, though it doesn't support V-Piano and n/zyme engines or stereo analog filter. https://support.roland.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039197611-FANTOM-6-FANTOM-7-FANTOM-8-Maximum-Polyphony https://support.roland.com/hc/en-us/articles/4570102526491-FANTOM-06-FANTOM-07-FANTOM-08-Maximum-polyphony https://rolandcorp.com.au/blog/fantom-fantom-0-comparison-chart If they said "bringing Analog Circuit Behavior (ACB) to the FANTOM", with the definite article, that would be a reference to the existing Fantom series. But they actually said "to FANTOM", with a zero article - whether that really means something is open to interpretation. By this logic, Roland should never release new flagship workstations because this would make existing Fantoms obsolete. Unless you're trying to make an intentionally vague statement to prevent your users from switching over to competition on a wave of excitement for a new product.

True. Controlling these articulations in realtime with a modwheel, ribbon and aftertouch seems tedious at best. I guess the two modwheels on the VL1 and EX5 series would make it a bit easier, but still far from straightfoward. OTOH mastering a wind controller is not an easy task for someone who wasn't trained to play real woodwind insruments. It's still a pity Yamaha discontinued their VL engine, because physical modeling is the best engine for wind/brass sounds. I was a trumpet player before I switched to piano/keyboards, and I still can't get myself to play synthesized or sampled brass sounds, even after all these years. They all sound synthetic and artificial to me, because there isn't enough variaton between consequtive notes. When you play a real brass instrument, the most challenging part is actually to sound consistent enough throughout the entire passage. You need to control not only air pressure, but also vibration of the lips, and that becomes quite tiring soon. To make the same kind of sound on every single note, especially when played across an interval that requires you to switch registers, would be an achievement of no small proportion. This is the key part that differentiates brass articulation from keyboard instruments, where only key velocity is driving the timbral nuances and therefore it's much easier to sound consistent. I guess a better approach for keyboard control of virtual acousting instruments could be to auto-detect articulations used in typical keyboard playing techniques and to auto-map them to brass-specific articulations, something like SWAM is doing with their String Sections models (violin/viola/cello/contrabass). CPU requirements for SWAM String Sections are quite high though, so I don't expect this approach to trickle down to hardware instruments any time soon. Maybe there could be Omosis-like 'gestures' that combine staccato/legato with aftertouch, escapement and portamento, similar to already existing legato, key off, and Assign Switch sources used by Expanded Articulation Control (XA Control) in the Yamaha Motif/Montage. https://manual.yamaha.com/mi/synth/montage_m/en/om02screenparameters0090.html#link01 For now, the most natural articulations for brass/wind instruments come from SWAM trumpet and saxophone models in combination with wind controllers like Roland Aerophone AE series. Sure, but I was referring to the part about getting the most value out of selling your old gear. All the words were English but I counldn't really get the meaning, so I literally had to Google every single phrase. For one, I never knew that GMAC was once named "General Motors Acceptance Corporation", or that "repo man" and "repo list" are related to creditor's repossession right, not to mention the fact that such right even exists without any limitation by judicial due process! I guess a lot of these cultural references are lost on me, since I wans't raised in that enviroment...

If they are referring to existing Fantom series, why they didn't mention the Fantom-0? Anyway, we shall see in due time whether they meant existing keyboards or a new product. The pre-announcement is clearly intended for Fantom users who are considering switching over to competing products like Yamaha Montage M or Korg Nautilus AT, and Fantom users have been petitioning Roland to include ACB modeling for years, so it's hardly pointless. You've already gven this exact same argument below. Surely Fantom users wanted ACB and Roland has been researching it. The question is whether existing BMC chips in Fantom / Fantom-0 series are capable of suporting ACB modeling - and what's important, doing it without interfering with polyphony and sound quality of existing synthesis models and effects. There were reports of voice stealing in the Fantom when using multiple engines, and adding a new modeling engine that vastly increases computional complexity by simulating indivudual discrete components instead of whole oscillator/filter curcuits could be a challenging task. So it's not just a matter of simply making a marketing decision to include this feature - otherwise it wouldn't take 4 years just to announce the development of ACB modeling. Didn't know things went so bad for Roland. Then again, these longer breaks during 2010s would be a reflection of the trouble they went through, and not a conscious desicion to lenghten the product cycle beyond the typical 4-5 years.

Demo of Montage M performances designed by Easy Sounds designers YAMAHA MONTAGE M Audition Demos - AN-X Performances | Easy Sounds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yvsiHdd0Ow YAMAHA MONTAGE M Audition Demos - Multi Part Performances | Easy Sounds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG31Xzl8vc0 Montage M side by side comparison to the original Montage Yamaha Montage M vs Yamaha Montage | No Talking | DKS SYNTH LAB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ykvlebzirkc

They said they are excited to announce, but it doesn't follow that the users should be excited as well. To me the wording like "bringing Analog Circuit Behavior (ACB) to FANTOM" implies a new model in the Fantom line. This Q&A with Roland engineers was originally conducted in Japanese, hence some awkward phrasing and too literal translations, but at least the translator seems to know the distinction between definite, indefinite, and zero article. Of course that's a secondary observation to the main point, i.e. whether ACB modeling can magically appear out of thin air at this point in the product life cycle, when Roland clearly did not consider it in their original ptoduct planning. If you consider the timeline of Roland flagship modules and workstations based on the 128-voice SuperNatural engine, i.e. XV-3080/5080 (2000), Fantom FA76 (2002), Fantom-S (2003), Fantom-X/Xr/Xa (2004), Fantom-G (2008), Jupiter-50/80 (2011), Integra-7 (2013), and FA-0 (2014), and also count-in their current flagship Zen Core engine models, i.e. Fantom and Jupiter-X (2019), and Fantom-0 (2022), it seems like 4 to 5 years would be the average time between most recent product releases. The earlier models, which were struggling to compete with Korg Triton and Yamaha Motif series, were replaced at a much faster rate.

BTW here is what Roland CEO said about BMC and ABM modeling in the Jupiter-X back in 2019: "Never chase a ghost": Roland says analog remakes aren't coming - CDM Create Digital Music https://cdm.link/2019/11/roland-analog-remakes-statement/ Some more excerpts from that Fantom development team Q&A article which also serves as ACB announcement: Roland Engineering: Designing FANTOM - Roland Articles https://articles.roland.com/roland-engineering-designing-fantom/

This announcement sounds like a new Fantom to me. They do have four BCM (Behavior Modeling Core) chips in both the Fantom and the Fantom-0, which is an embedded CPU/DSP that can do ABM (Analog Behavior Modeling) for emulation of historical synth models, V-Piano physical modeling, and Zen Core sample-based tone generator for SuperNatural and sampled sounds. They also released a new n/zyme synth engine back in 2022, which combines sample-based wavetable synthesis with analog-style phase/shape modulations and filters. It would be quite an achievement to implement ACB (Analog Circuit Behavior) with a DSP designed for less demanding ABM virtual analog engine - unless a dedicated ACB chip was onboard the Fantom / Fantom-0 all this time, which would be silly to withhold for 4 full years after the initial release. They also mention custom FPGA chips but only in the context of sample loading time, so I suppose these are used for sample compression. So while there are some references to continued development of new synthesis engines, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Genos 2 it is. https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/keyboards/your-next-masterpiece/index.html 2 YOUR NEXT MASTERPIECE NOVEMBER 15TH 2023 – 6PM CET Come discover the next generation of Yamaha workstations in a very special online event.

This is a global Utility Tempo setting for the Performance mode, you don't have to run the sequencer to hear the clicks. It's not a separate operation mode, the sequencer works within the selected Performance. There is no way to set up a dedicated button to control the click sound, you need to press the Tempo/Tap button and change the Mode or Volume parameter on the screen. If you absolutely need push-button operation, there are external digital metronomes that can be had for under $50, provided you don't need tempo-synced parameters for LFOs, effects, arps, or Motion Sequences on the Montage M. https://www.musicradar.com/news/best-metronomes If you recorded or loaded a click track pattern and assigned it to one of the Scene buttons, you can use a different Scene button to select an empty pattern while the sequencer is playing. You can also use Part Group 1-16 button and respective Mute buttons to mute Parts 9-16. A more convenient way would be to simply set the Click mode to Playback and start/stop the sequencer with the dedicated buttons. BTW there are no assignable buttons that can be set to user-defined functions in the OS. The ASSIGN1/ASSIGN2 buttons on the far left are for eXpanded Articulation control only. Mastering MODX: Assignable Switches 1&2 - Yamaha Synth https://yamahasynth.com/learn/modx/assignable-switches-1-2-mastering-modx

You can set the metronome to Always click mode in your Performance, not just during sequencer playback/record, and you can select the audio output for the click sound (Main and Assignable outs or USB audio, stereo or mono) on the Tempo Settings screen accessible with the Tempo/Tap button. MONTAGE M Operation Manual | Screens and parameters | Utility screen https://manual.yamaha.com/mi/synth/montage_m/en/om02screenparameters0320.html#link15 You cannot control it with an assignable button though. Yes, it's just the Slider Direction setting in Part Common Edit. MONTAGE M Operation Manual | Screens and parameters | Part Edit (AWM2) screen | Part Common Edit https://manual.yamaha.com/mi/synth/montage_m/en/om02screenparameters0080.html#link25 Yes, VCM Rotary is only available for Part 1. https://manual.yamaha.com/mi/synth/montage_m/en/om02screenparameters0080.html#link09 4. Correct. Analog Xperience includes 262 MBytes of samples, so it will use that separate 128-voice polyphony available for User Waveform flash memory. MONTAGE 'Analog Xperience' (Download) | Yamaha MONTAGE Premium Series | Yamaha Synthesizer | EASY SOUNDS Shop https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-synthesizer/yamaha-montage-premium-series/36/montage-analog-xperience-download 5. These are 128 stereo voices.

I have not got a slightest idea about anything you are talking about, like how you should not test drive your Montage M into loan sharks on the repo list vehicle unless it's a freaking blast off the USD conversion chart stored in the garage at the pawn shop of the Guitar Center Motor Acceptance Corporation... or whatever, I missed a lot of cultural references here but it sure sounds fun, please continue having this conversation. 🙃 Regarding the PLG cards, I did consider adding VL and AN boards to my Motif ES at the time, but there were a lot of limitations because those boards were essentially standalone synthesizer modules connected by MIDI. The host OS in the Motif would include program names and bulk SysEx data for the plug-in user Voice banks, and could copy data from the voice banks on the plug-in board, but there was no editing of plug-in synth parameters the main GUI (besides the few parameters provided by the AWM2 engine in the Motif ES). So the workflow would be tedious, as I would have to use PC editor software to edit and store the User programs on the PLG boards. So this was a nice idea to use these boards in the SW1000XG computer sound card or the MU2000 desktop music module, since you would already use editor/sequencer software to control them, but having them as plug-in slots in a professional keyboard or module... not so much. I also believe VL requires breath controller - or better a WX-series wind controller for VL1m/VL70m modules - to master the expressions of the real wind instument. Although there was a bank of keyboard-only patches, keyboard demos sounded less impressive to me in comparison to breath controller demos; I couldn't demo it in person though. BTW please check out Yamaha Synth Space demos of VL1 by Dom Sigalas (keyboard only) and a review by Katsunori Ujiie (musiktrackjp) with a breath controller!

But those prices... holy cow, 4200 € to preorder the Yamaha Montage M7 at the few European dealers that list them. There's also this new direct sales model, where customers sign directly with Yamaha Europe, and your local dealer only acts as a sales agent who drop ships the package fron Yamaha's warehoude to your door. Obviously Thomann called it quits and won't even stock the Montage M. Montage M availability in EU? https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20125