Vidal Boutique Controller Keyboards

[davinwv]

I started a thread about these over at V-Control, but I thought there might be interest here, as well. These are uber-expensive, but still pretty cool. If you live near Philly, you can schedule an appointment to go to HQ and play the prototype(s).

 

https://playvidal.com/products/vidal

[mate stubb]

With only two moving parts for each key, it cannot have any escapement feature. Action similar to a Rhodes?

[tnelson]

Spruce full-length keys by same source as Steinway, pivot on piano pin rail, felt bushings, steel weights and magnets(!) against spring to adjust static and dynamic resistance through keystroke....This is a completely new action concept, designed with a classical pianist and grand piano rebuilder on team, aiming for real piano feel.  Check out their IG page @playvidal to see more details. They are still working with prototypes, so some stuff may change.  To put cost in perspective, these are crafted one-at-a-time, real piano materials, wood not plastic....yet still portable.  It's a niche, but jazz pianists (classical pianists?)...watch the development of this project....

[stoken6]

Hey - it's that form factor I like! Super-pricey, but I wish them well.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[mate stubb]

So it's magnets. I dreamed of trying this years ago.  An electromagnet calibrated to vary its strength along the key travel path might be able to do some cool things emulating the actual touch of a grand action.

[tnelson]

They say the action will be user-adjustable, from upright piano (lighter) to grand piano (heavier) feel. Not just through adjusting the MIDI keyboard velocity map (which also can be done), but by physically changing the action through adjustment to the weights and magnets.

[David Emm]

That's gorgeous. $2599 is a tidy handful of cash, but something that high-end should do minimal traveling, so I see it as mainly a master that stays put. It holds up nicely when contrasted with the Infinite Response VAX77. Someone may tour with it, because the build is tough, but at 40 pounds, its not a candidate for a gig bag.

 

I note the pitch bending STICK as a plus, which no one has attempted since Nord first applied it. The ports seem a bit minimal and support the idea of it being a studio creature feeding a DAW. Its not built to be a David Sancious stage tool with multiple outs like the Peavey controller he once favored.

 

Being just 5 octaves, it won't satisfy those who seek a larger piano keybed for use with Ivory and weighted keys that good aren't what I envision for synth playing. Will it be sought after all the same? Its hard to imagine that it wouldn't be, with beautiful specs like those. IMO, a lot of people will commit for the adjustable action. C'mon, Loopop and Sonic State reviews!

[TWB121234]

It will be available in a 73 and 88 key version. Mo' money of course.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

And that's all I have to say about that!  

 

[CyberGene]

Doesn’t look like there’s space for electromagnets (solenoids), so in the best case there are just static magnets that can’t do anything special. To me it looks like a pretty simple action and not any different than any other digital action. Wood doesn’t mean anything besides looking fancy. A real piano action feels like how it feels because of the complex mechanism and multiple leverage stages, including real escapement that detaches the jack from the high leverage ratio whippen-knuckle and holds the hammer through the low leverage backcheck-to-hammerhead ratio instead. In contrast, digital actions have a constant leverage that contributes to permanent pushback against your fingers which is tiring. Look at Kawai wooden digital piano actions for instance, they don’t feel like a real grand, although they are good actions. That’s why there are hybrid pianos such as NV10 and AvantGrand. There’s no replacement for displacement, so to speak 😉
 

Unless they managed to put solenoids beneath the keys somehow, it’s just a fancy looking action that is no different than any other digital action. 
 

We also discussed it over at PianoClack. 

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Doesn’t look like there’s space for electromagnets (solenoids), so in the best case there are just static magnets that can’t do anything special. To me it looks like a pretty simple action and not any different than any other digital action. Wood doesn’t mean anything besides looking fancy. A real piano action feels like how it feels because of the complex mechanism and multiple leverage stages, including real escapement that detaches the jack from the high leverage ratio whippen-knuckle and holds the hammer through the low leverage backcheck-to-hammerhead ratio instead. In contrast, digital actions have a constant leverage that contributes to permanent pushback against your fingers which is tiring. Look at Kawai wooden digital piano actions for instance, they don’t feel like a real grand, although they are good actions. That’s why there are hybrid pianos such as NV10 and AvantGrand. There’s no replacement for displacement, so to speak 😉
 

Unless they managed to put solenoids beneath the keys somehow, it’s just a fancy looking action that is no different than any other digital action. 
 

We also discussed it over at PianoClack. 

The key length appears to be a factor they were interested in addressing.  But yes the action is less complex, more like a Rhodes than a piano. Have to play it to comment.  Most other products are a TP100 or TP40 variant in a case.  

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

There’s no replacement for displacement, so to speak

👍😁👏

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

I would no more dream of entering a conversation about piano action among you guys than claim I could teach Julia Child how to cook French food because I can thaw frozen cordon bleu chicken patties in the microwave, but in amongst this conversation I must make one small correction:

 

On 6/23/2023 at 6:34 PM, David Emm said:

I note the pitch bending STICK as a plus, which no one has attempted since Nord first applied it.

 

The Nonlinear Labs C15 has such a stick. The designer is very proud of the fact that it works the same way as the Nord, but has a smoother action because it uses magnets rather than a physical spring.

 

What he did not think through, however, was the shape of the stick itself. The top has a cup-shaped depression for the fingertip rather than a concave arc where you can comfortably lay the pad of the finger. I'm not the best synth soloist on the planet, but my attempts to play with this design were very uncomfortable and difficult to control, whereas I have always enjoyed how easy it is to lay the pad of my finger on the Nord pitch stick and play very natural vibrato. 

 

My 5 Lindens' worth. Please do go on without me. 

 

mike

 

[CrossRhodes]

Love the aesthetic and mission statement. Looking forward to seeing how these instruments evolve!

[o0Ampy0o]

"All ports are mounted to a steel panel and are nearly indestructible for use gigging and on tour."

 

I get the fine crafted acoustic piano / musical instrument as furniture concept but a practical durable rough & tumble housing option for gigging and touring would broaden its appeal to more who might seriously consider buying one.

[nursers]

As a home-based studio option I love this, including the real estate on top. Very very tempted...

[davinwv]

7 hours ago, o0Ampy0o said:

"All ports are mounted to a steel panel and are nearly indestructible for use gigging and on tour."

 

I get the fine crafted acoustic piano / musical instrument as furniture concept but a practical durable rough & tumble housing option for gigging and touring would broaden its appeal to more who might seriously consider buying one.

I asked Vidal about the possibility of more road-worthy finishes on Instagram. No reply yet.

[Nathanael_I]

I got no answer to a question about its data stream. The most important quality in a controller is the output data. Love the nice case, but what about the sensors?  Seems they use standard bubble contacts. No mention of triple sensor. No mention of 14-bit MIDI.  It’s a nice case. But I want to know about its actual qualities as a controller. Can it play controllably in the 20s and below?  What is its expressive range?  The VAX 77 was delightful in these regards. The Kawai Grand is also quite good. How good is the data out of this? 

[mynameisdanno]

This looks awfully perfect to plonk a Nord Stage # Compact on top of.  Gonna have to find a way to put my hands on one.

[davinwv]

9 hours ago, mynameisdanno said:

This looks awfully perfect to plonk a Nord Stage # Compact on top of.  Gonna have to find a way to put my hands on one.

I thought of your rig's form factor as soon as I saw this, Daniel. It would be a great replacement for your CP300 (are you still using that?).

 

If I got one, I would put my single-manual Hammond controller right on top. No more 2-tier stand.

 

I do worry about the roadworthiness of the finish, though.

[mynameisdanno]

10 hours ago, davinwv said:

I thought of your rig's form factor as soon as I saw this, Daniel. It would be a great replacement for your CP300 (are you still using that?).

 

If I got one, I would put my single-manual Hammond controller right on top. No more 2-tier stand.

 

I do worry about the roadworthiness of the finish, though.

For stage gear, I like the idea of something that could get gracefully dinged up in the way all our bandmates enjoy. My main skepticism is how this novel action mechanism will feel. Time will tell, I hope. They seem to have a great team assembled. I want to believe!
 

The CP300 is still my go-to bottom board for backline rental situations, or if someone else is setting it up. The CP300 that’s been baking in my parents’ garage in Oklahoma for 17 years still boots up just fine every time I go back home, so I imagine all the backline companies will keep theirs around for as long as people keep asking for them.
 

For special occasion local one-offs, the Kawai VPC1 looks a little sharper. If space or weight is at a premium, the Kawai ES110 and my @Tonysounds-inspired half-tier to hold up the back of the Nord. 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:53 PM, Dr Nursers said:

As a home-based studio option I love this, including the real estate on top. Very very tempted...

 

Agree but an 88 will probably work out around 6 grand in Aussie greenbacks (exchange rate works out at 5 grand but we know Aussie importers like to gouge us especially this being a niche keyboard).

 

I sold off my real baby grand for our house move replacing it with a Kawai mp9500 due to portability of the house move and a bit to live off. I like the Kawai a lot. It is lighter than my grand it replaced but i soon embraced that.

 

I have a hankering for an 88 board without the usual sensors that can be affected by dust. The Vax always was an interesting beast because of its sensing but an elusive beast in Australia 

 

Its not exactly clear on a quick look if the magnets are to do with the weighting of the keys or if they are for sensors. Or both. I can see them being either. 

 

If this was revolutionary then 5 or 6 grand could replace someones used baby grand. And it may be appropriate but it would need to be fool proof at the Aussie price

 

We will be finally moving to our new home in 3 months to renovate it but will possibly be many more months to actually live in it. Is a revolutionary 88note controller possibly of interest down the track  or do i keep on loving my Kawai MP 9500. If it was US price here its a very good price but at our exchange rate its would have to be ground breaking and the last 88 weighted one could lust for.

 

As ive let go some of my vintage gear for the move My wifes been pushing me to get something like the Akai MPC key61 to record with and eliminate all my vintage junk and actually get focussed. What about this 88 instead or with the Akai on top. 

 

Will it be revolutionary to make its price palatable?

 

Edit: i just read another forum where they said it has membrane switches like every thing else. I was hoping for some radical sensors using magnets. 

[CyberGene]

17 minutes ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

Will it be revolutionary to make its price palatable?

I bet a beer it won’t. 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

34 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I bet a beer it won’t. 

 

Yeah i believe you plus i cant bet you as Im one of the few Aussies who dont drink alcohol. Hee hee

 

i just read another forum where they said it has membrane switches like every thing else. I was hoping for some radical sensors using magnets.

 

Thought it at least it'd have secret agent Alien technology captured by the govnment in the 50s. At least

[nursers]

Yep great points @AUSSIEKEYS will be interesting to see

[Nathanael_I]

I think it's a big miss to have membrane sensors and not optical sensors with Hi-def MIDI (14-bit output).  I have a Non-linear Labs C15 that scans the keys 4000 times a second for internal sounds.  It is a radically more connected experience than MIDI. The VAX77 playing Pianoteq was the same (14 bit MIDI).  Making a deluxe case is cool, and the feel is critical.  But the sensors are what make a controller expressive!  I already have a Nord Grand with a lovely triple-sensor action.

 

I like the idea of this a lot.  But it is not an insta-buy.  All of my DM questions about the data stream have gone unanswered.  I wanted to know how the dynamic range is - how controllable it is down into the MIDI 20s... how hard it is to get 128.... what is the usable range.  Note off velocity?  There's just no detail on what the controller data stream includes, and that makes it difficult to evaluate except as a box of beautiful wood.   

[davinwv]

Vidal will post an in-depth look at the magnetic action design on 07/12:

 

https://instagram.com/stories/playvidal/3140504810739166015?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

 

You can submit your questions via Instagram DM.

[davinwv]

Here's a detailed article re: the specifics of the action:

 

https://playvidal.com/blogs/news/how-our-magnet-action-works?fbclid=PAAaYwTDjC8O4BpVsksj8bEEyNeIL_n-rWEnBDWivaq1ZZkhj-WMU43rPIKFY

[CrossRhodes]

I wonder what's up with these guys? Seems like the IG has gone silent since August of last year and haven't seen a single review out in the wild. Seems kind of odd.

[Motif88]

On 6/23/2023 at 1:48 PM, mate stubb said:

So it's magnets. I dreamed of trying this years ago.  An electromagnet calibrated to vary its strength along the key travel path might be able to do some cool things emulating the actual touch of a grand action.

How different is this from the Yamaha GEX action?