The Future of MPN?

[Caevan O’Shite]

I just signed-up and made a $10.00 payment through Patreon, and will continue to do so as I can, when I can (monthly payments should be be fine, I just might have to juggle things from time to time).

How about optional subscription? (Maybe Patreon is basically just that?) If it's reasonable, I'd subscribe annually, and I also wouldn't mind at all if other Forum Members couldn't or wouldn't or shouldn't. Maybe offer some perks for paid subscribers, maybe not. (Sideways tangent while we're here- maybe offer some easy way to post notation and tablature to display in posts? Or school me if there are already ways to do that?)

I kind of like the idea of soliciting ads from topically-related entities- such as Fender, Gibson, Marshall, various pedal makers, string makers... I'm sure it's not so simple, though! Strings and Beyond, perhaps? Brands and products that many of us would be occasionally buying anyway would be good...

Forummites might need to be reminded that it's beneficial to occasionally click on active promotional banners and the like to effectively say, "We're here!", and paying attention to the ad content of sponsors...

Pop-up ads and the click-bait crap would be horrid, though. Some sites are difficult to read through all that garbage!

[Docbop]

With Patreon could use it to offer up perks.    Maybe some artist support with a video,  or pdf.   Also vender Q&A and similar type things.  Patreon has the facilities built in to do all that so all that become supporter can get the perks.   What was the old commercial that said.....  Membership has its rewards. 

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

 

In a way, that's what I have in mind. A "virtual town" you can visit that's designed for musicians. A library for content, a theater for videos, forums for discussions, an auditorium for events, a "radio station" for playing the community's music, mall for shopping, all cross-linked so it's easy to hop from one to another (e.g., you see a video that's interesting, you can hop to a discussion about it, or the mall to check out a related product in more detail). That's not germane to this discussion here because it's out of our reach technically. But if Dave Bryce won the Powerball, I'd try to talk him into doing that with MPN

 

Since (as you know) I share your same original vision for MPN with you (y’all do know that Craig is the founder of MPN, yes?), you wouldn’t have to exert a lot of effort to get me on board.

 

Powerball, huh? Hmmm…. 🤔😏

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

24 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

IHow about optional subscription? (Maybe Patreon is basically just that?)

 

Yep, it essentially is….with the added benefit that you decide how much you want to contribute, and it’s not forced on everyone.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

 

If it's reasonable, I'd subscribe annually, and I also wouldn't mind at all if other Forum Members couldn't or wouldn't or shouldn't.

 

😎

 

 

24 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Maybe offer some perks for paid subscribers, maybe not. (Sideways tangent while we're here- maybe offer some easy way to post notation and tablature to display in posts? Or school me if there are already ways to do that?)

 

I think you can do that. depending on how the notation/tab is saved.  When creating a post, in the lower right hand corner there’s an option to add “OTHER MEDIA”.  Try that…

 

 

24 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

I kind of like the idea of soliciting ads from topically-related entities- such as Fender, Gibson, Marshall, various pedal makers, string makers... I'm sure it's not so simple, though!

 

You’d be correct.  As previously mentioned, that could be either a full- or part-time gig.  I’d be quite happy to find/pay someone willing to help with that.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Forumites might need to be reminded that it's beneficial to occasionally click on active promotional banners and the like to effectively say, "We're here!", and paying attention to the ad content of sponsors...

 

Yup.. Lack of clicks is what ended our relationship with Kraft Music.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Pop-up ads and the click-bait crap would be horrid, though. Some sites are difficult to read through all that garbage!

 

I’m kinda with you there.   When I look at what AdSense has done to Harmony Central, it hurts my eyes and my heart. 😔

 

dB

[RABid]

I didn't realize that the Sweetwater banner was a referral link. I will start using it.

[aronnelson]

I feel you on this. For over 20 years, I tried to pay the bill for my forum. At the end I did try Adsense and I wish I had done it sooner. I made it so that visitors had ads but members didn't. It pays the bills which is what I was concerned about. Ever since 911 and COVID, gigs and places to play are way down for me so I had to do this or just shut it down. I found that people will donate but the regular donators are less than 20 for a forum of over 1 million posts.

It's tough when everything is "free" including music!

[Lindaru]

7 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

I find it interesting that some of you say things about Patreon vs. subscription since they're pretty similar. I think some have said they'd do a subscription but not or haven't done Patreon. If you're okay with a subscription you could do Patreon in the meantime. Patreon has been "I need to figure out what I want to contribute to KC/MPN" for a while. I'm currently doing three. One is for a podcast that I really enjoy but I'm not crazy about the guy's music so I support him with that instead, another is for another podcast that has been life-changing for me and doesn't run ads, and the third is for a band that I love (and found out about from KC). In that case, they have levels that give you different access to stuff. It's really a fan club. I don't know if there are possible things MPN could do like that, or of we're better off sticking with the current, "if you love MPN, please consider contributing."

 

 

I also contribute to the hosting of the WeVidi site (as one of the founders) and a pod-caster who has also featured me in a radio play last Halloween through Patreon.  The nice thing about Patreon is that all of your support is bundled into one deduction, so less to keep track of than a separate subscription for accounting purposes.
 

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

In a way, that's what I have in mind. A "virtual town" you can visit that's designed for musicians. A library for content, a theater for videos, forums for discussions, an auditorium for events, a "radio station" for playing the community's music, mall for shopping, all cross-linked so it's easy to hop from one to another (e.g., you see a video that's interesting, you can hop to a discussion about it, or the mall to check out a related product in more detail). That's not germane to this discussion here because it's out of our reach technically. But if Dave Bryce won the Powerball, I'd try to talk him into doing that with MPN

That’s a pretty nice idea indeed. But it’s all too similar to Facebook, or even more to MySpace for those who remember it, it was like a proto-Facebook but more music oriented. But that was also its Achilles’ heel. It’s just too complicated and resource demanding to be used for something specific. That’s where Facebook got a win, they abstracted it to the level of using all these functions in a more flexible way for basically anything. One can argue Facebook already does all that. I for one deleted my account permanently after years of using FB due to the growing polarization and hostility. It all started friendly in 2008 to end up as an activist battle field for anyone arguing with anyone, and especially their closest friends, about anything and not accepting any other view than their own. I feel so much better without Facebook. 
 

But back to feature rich music oriented social network. That’s so difficult to implement and sustain that it will indeed be possible only if you have way too much cash to waste for the luxury of it 😉 But it’s a really nice idea, no doubt about it. 

[The Real MC]

Social media like Facebook has a serious fault - try using their search tool.

MPN fixed their search tool so it is practical.  It WORKS.

MPN has a LOT of valuable info in its archive.  

Every time a retailer acquires a discussion forum, they ruin it and many members leave.  HC had good gear reviews which were deleted and they FUBAR'd the forum interface.  When HC 2.0 came out against the advice of admins and moderators they lost a LOT os members.

I would gladly pay a subscription for ad-free surfing rather than scroll post-ad-post-ad-post-ad ad infinitum.  MPN's ad ratio is tolerable; too many ads and I will leave.  It's precisely why I left cable/broadcast TV & radio since 2000.

[Dave Bryce]

37 minutes ago, RABid said:

I didn't realize that the Sweetwater banner was a referral link. I will start using it.

 

The Sweetwater affiliate linked banners weren’t generating much interest, so I took them down.  If you guys would like, I can put them back.

 

The way they work is that if you click on to Sweetwater’s site from the banner, MPN gets a small % for anything you buy while you’re on their site.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

46 minutes ago, aronnelson said:

I feel you on this. For over 20 years, I tried to pay the bill for my forum. At the end I did try Adsense and I wish I had done it sooner. I made it so that visitors had ads but members didn't.

Oh, that’s an excellent idea!  We actually get a fairly decent amount of visitors….

 

Thank you, brother!

 

dB

[jazzpiano88]

This may have been previously mentioned, but is it worth setting up a MPN or KC YouTube channel that can monetize some of the more valuable content outside of the user-generated forum content?     Some of the golden nuggets that might get traffic and also drive new forum users:

 

- Keyboard Chronicles podcasts. (worth their weight in gold!). These are hidden away but could get a bigger audience on YouTube.

- Gear Lab.  Can these be more video-geared up front posted on YouTube and then let discussion follow in youtube comments and direct people here as well.   The GX-80 I can imagine would have gotten a lot of views on YT.

 

[marczellm]

I have nothing really new to add, just to agree with some points from others.

Quote

any time we want to try and add value like paying folks to cover trade shows, do videos, do reviews, curate press announcements, ..., run the MPN Store and more.

I agree with the great points MOI and Geoff Grace have made as well as JazzPiano88. I'm a casual not too heavy user of these forums. For me the main value is the forums and community. The aforementioned types of content that cost extra to produce, I don't consume (read / watch). I think there could be quite a logical next step to turn just that into subscription-only while keeping the forums free. I feel these already cater to the most committed crowd. I'm also not against cutting the amount or certain types of that content if it turns out, maybe via a survey, that very few people read / watch it.

 

I think Patreon also could be the way to go but there needs to be a coordinated, well thought-out "marketing campaign" to hopefully reach all regular and casual users, as well as new users in the future also have to be greeted by very clear messaging on
- what we need the donations for
- and what is the recommended amount. This second point is basically a middle ground between pay-what-you-want and fixed subscription: you can pay as much or as little as you like, but there's a recommended amount that's sort of like a subscription. Also I have seen Patreon supported companies tie some content to Patreon membership exclusively. So that way we could have the best of all worlds.

 

Quote

I’ll strip what folks in that group can see to the bare minimum, just allowing reading and posting in only the music forums - just the basics.  Then, I’ll be happy to switch anyone over to that group and they won’t have to worry about any donations or payments at all.

An idea: maybe a statistic can be extracted from the forum software that reveals what percent of users participate in the music forums and what percent consumes the extra content too. That would inform the decision.

 

Quote

I think what’s hard is that I don’t feel like MPN has done a great job with promoting the sheer depth of knowledge and decades of information here.

Quoted for emphasis. Marketing and messaging is very important and it's just recently that I'm discovering how much.

 

[Dave Bryce]

9 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

This may have been previously mentioned, but is it worth setting up a MPN or KC YouTube channel that can monetize some of the more valuable content outside of the user-generated forum content?     Some of the golden nuggets that might get traffic and also drive new forum users:

We have a Youtube channel.

 

MPN YouTube Channel

 

The link to all five of our social media channels including the YouTube one are at the bottom of every page.

 

Not quite enough members or viewed to monetize it yet. Could probably use more content, tbh…

 

 

9 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

- Keyboard Chronicles podcasts. (worth their weight in gold!). These are hidden away but could get a bigger audience on YouTube.

 

They’re already linked to our channel.

 

 

9 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

- Gear Lab.  Can these be more video-geared up front posted on YouTube and then let discussion follow in youtube comments and direct people here as well.   The GX-80 I can imagine would have gotten a lot of views on YT.

 

Another fine idea.  We do have some of the GearLab content on the MPN channel and would love to have more content there…but the amount of reviews we can do has been limited by our budget.

 

dB

[Lindaru]

3 hours ago, Docbop said:

Wikipedia  about once a year puts up popups asking for an annual donation, I use Wiki a lot so I donate.   I guess since I have donated a couple times I got an email from them about the upcoming donation period.  They talked about how few people donate and those that do how little they tend to donate.     So even for a tool most use almost everyday either directly or from search engine results people are they don't value it.   Like when people started downloading and stealing music, videos, software, books, etc if it's digital and they can't touch it they think it should be free. 

 

 

 

 

I also donate annually to Wikipedia.  I agree that there needs to be an exchange of appreciation.  They give us a wide variety of information at the drop of a search, so I feel the public that uses it should help out financially.

Maybe an annual MPN donation request to boost whatever people give through Patreon would be something to be considered.

 

[16251]

Reading about contributing here or anywhere like FB, YT, etc. I get a little PTSD about my digital footprint any transaction I do on web, except when I decide to buy from them ie Amazon, Sweetwater, etc.

[Keyboardplayer]

First it was administrator Sharp over on the Korg Forums saying he needed to raise funds to keep the doors open. Now Dave Bryce is searching for ways to keep the doors open over here at Music Player Network. 👍 Although, I thought Casio was sponsoring Keyboard Corner? Casio has boat loads of money no doubt, so you'd think they would chip in to keep the lights on. Perhaps they already do. Music Player Network draws musicians from all over the world and I suspect even big name artists browse MPN on occasion and have likely even posted if only anonymously. MPN is important to the music industry itself because people who gather here are usually looking to buy music/audio gear which helps keep the companies that make the gear in business. I'd hate to see MPN go belly up.

 

Crowdsource funding is probably the way to go if other options don't work out. Here is probably the best online crowdfunding company currently: https://gogetfunding.com which is the highest rated according to Trust Pilot and has the lowest flat-rate platform fee.

[eric]

I haven't been quite as regular on the forum in recent years - I think largely driven by a general slowing in Gear Acquisition Syndrome aka GAS for me, as I've kind of stabilized my gear arsenal at home and for gigs. There was a long period of time, probably 15+ years, when I was buying, selling, trading all kinds of vintage and modern keyboard gear almost weekly. LOL. Someone on the forum even gave this a name - an "Eric Moment" - for those that were doing similar things.

 

I'm a very long time member here and my favorite dividend that this forum has paid immeasurably is the human connections and countless friends I've made virtually here, many of which have translated into meet ups around the country/world, whether NAMM show, or many Mid Atlantic Keyboard Corner Forum Hangs aka MAKCFH...and while I've been around on business travel all over the USA and Canada, I've had the joy of meeting up with many of you on this forum, seeing your bands play, sharing a few pints, sitting in with bands, building lifelong friendships, etc. I could go on and on about this. 

 

I reflect on the above as I consider the forum to be PRICELESS and I'd love to pay it forward as generously as I can - I'll start with Patreon (new for me, I wasn't aware of it previously)...and if there are any other campaigns to collect targeted funds, consider me a donor. 

 

Back in the early internet days, I helped to moderate an old school CloneWheel user group and it was kind of fun, though largely thankless and time-consuming. I am in awe of brother dB and his decades of patience plus hard work here on this forum. He has been the mainstay that kept us going through multiple changes and tech challenges.

 

I'll sign up for a monthly Patreon donation right away - thanks to everyone for your ideas and willingness to contribute to this priceless resource.

 

Eric

[jazzpiano88]

24 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

We have a Youtube channel.

 

MPN YouTube Channel

 

The link to all five of our social media channels including the YouTube one are at the bottom of every page.

Not quite enough members or viewed to monetize it yet. Could probably use more content, tbh…

 

Ahh yes, I understand.    We need a boost to get subscribers over the hump.  Maybe a viral video.   Do you own any cats?

[Anderton]

10 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

Ahh yes, I understand.    We need a boost to get subscribers over the hump.  Maybe a viral video.   Do you own any cats?

 

I would love to do  more content for the video channel. However, I already produce at least one video per week and get paid for them. It would be difficult to find the time to do more videos pro bono. Also, to derive any significant income from YouTube videos, you need a lot of views - you get about $18 per 1,000 views. 

[linwood]

For me...I'd like something easy like $99 for the year or whatever will make the numbers work for you. Can I pay a one time C note to Patreon? I'm sooo 14.95'd. 19.99'd 29.99'd a month as it is. I'd like to just pay the band and enjoy the site. 

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

Ahh yes, I understand.    We need a boost to get subscribers over the hump.  Maybe a viral video.   Do you own any cats?

No, just dogs….but they’re both really photogenic.

 

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

38 minutes ago, linwood said:

For me...I'd like something easy like $99 for the year or whatever will make the numbers work for you. Can I pay a one time C note to Patreon?

 

I think so.  Patreon site sez:

 

Switching from monthly to annual billing

Click the Manage Memberships button (pencil icon) in the left navigation

Click the Edit button next to your membership 

The checkout page should be familiar — directly under the page header, you can toggle between monthly, or annual membership to compare the cost 

Select the annual price button and click the Update button. Please note, that you’ll pay for the entire year upfront

 

Starting an annual membership (not yet a patron)

Log in to your Patreon account and find the creator’s page you want to join

Click the link for the annual discount directly below the Join button for the tier. You can compare the creator’s monthly and annual options on the checkout page before you confirm

Review your billing method and auto-renewal details in the Summary section of the checkout page – you may want to print or screenshot the page for your records

Click on the Confirm button to start your membership. You’ll pay for the year, in full, immediately.

 

I’m not sure if I have to do anything on my end to make that work.  If so, please let me know…

 

dB

[Al Quinn]

I just finished reading all of the posts in this thread and am exhausted. To me, DB’s ask is crying for a simple solution. 
 

I like the previous comments about Wikipedia. They ask for money on occasion and I donate because I value what they offer. I also like what Linwood just said.
 

For me, this forum is an important and valuable way to exchange ideas with folks who share my passion for music. I’m happy to contribute but haven’t yet simply because I didn’t understand the state of affairs. My needs are along the lines of “keep the lights on.” Just a place where we can share thoughts, recordings, videos, and any other music related stuff. I wouldn’t want to see this place become a business. If ads help that’s fine with me.
 

DB’s ask to contribute the price of a cup of Starbucks coffee per month is a no brainer. I’m headed over to the Patreon page now to setup my payments…

[jazzpiano88]

Just editorializing here;  feel free to ignore....  I have to say, whatever it takes to keep this forum operational is worth it.  In my experience, it is one of the few online forums that is both productive and largely without controversy.

 

I don't know how Dave manages to do it, but the content is always on point and this community seems like a bunch of good friends and acquaintances and welcomed strangers interacting like normal people.  I should have been banned multiple times for flying off the handle at people i disagreed with, but I was brought down to earth by the good graces of reasonable people who corrected me, and those are the type of people that Dave cultivates and boosts in the membership, I have to believe.  This really is one of the best communities on the internet in my experience.

 

 

 

[linwood]

I couldn't find it, so I did the monthly for $8. Now I'm feeling like a cheapskate.

[Dave Bryce]

19 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I have to say, whatever it takes to keep this forum operational is worth it.  In my experience, it is one of the few online forums that is both productive and largely without controversy.

 

I don't know how Dave manages to do it, but the content is always on point and this community seems like a bunch of good friends and acquaintances and welcomed strangers interacting like normal people.  I should have been banned multiple times for flying off the handle at people i disagreed with, but I was brought down to earth by the good graces of reasonable people who corrected me, and those are the type of people that Dave cultivates and boosts in the membership, I have to believe.  This really is one of the best communities on the internet in my experience.

 

You’re way too kind, brother.  Thank you…

 

MPN is what it is because of the people like you and the other folks who choose to spend their valuable time here.  It’s an honor and a privilege for me to be in a position to help keep it going as long as it has. 

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

19 minutes ago, linwood said:

I couldn't find it, so I did the monthly for $8. Now I'm feeling like a cheapskate.

 

When factoring in everything you’ve contributed to the community over the years…I’d say you were anything but a cheapskate, my friend.  👊🏼

 

dB

[Nathanael_I]

I was a bit lost on trying to turn this into a profitable business, but a simple Patreon ask is easy.  Done.  I've learned so much here - even found the piano in my studio through Dave Ferris.  I don't drink coffee, but I can buy the site one every month!

[drawback]

I'd still go for some kind of subscription model, but since reading dB's posts on the subject and considering a great many options and opinions, I've gone with Patreon in the meantime. I'm an everyday guy for almost 20 years here, so whatever it takes. Keep up the outstanding work, dB, and you know all you have to do is ask.