The Future of MPN?

[PianoMan51]

Just signed up for Patreon. While folks can debate and decide on the best solution for the long term future, those of us who appreciate Keyboard Corner can donate the price of a burger each month to keep the lights on.

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

Reading between the lines, I think what you're asking might really be if maybe someone else might be the Db of the forum for a while or even permanently. Does that sound right?

 

Not at all.

 

I could use a little help, though…and I’d be happy to pay for it; however, if someone wants to buy MPN from me, I’d certainly listen to offers.  An acquisitions company just tried to buy MPN this month.  They were almost successful.

 

 

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

If so, maybe it's worth putting the call out for admin/tech, with the caveat that it might be a volunteer position basically forever, and see who bites.

 

Gratis? 🤔

 

No one will, brother Josh.  Why would they?  It’s a much bigger job than it appears, and takes a decent amount of time.  As I mentioned earlier, whoever owns this place probably needs to also establish an LLC to be able to administrate it properly; and, unless they’re very knowledgeable on the tech side, they’ll have to hire at least one other person to help with that.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

Short of that, instead of (or in addition to) Patreon, what if there was a single "Help us keep the lights on" fundraising effort with a concrete target to aim for--say, $4000. That's five years of the current Patreon load. I think people would respond to the crucial need for a specific amount of funding much more quickly and reliably than the general ask to top off the Patreon when and if they feel like it. 

 

As I keep trying to say - there’s no concrete way of knowing what that number is; however,, FWIW, basic operating costs without paying anyone to do any work are thousands of dollars a year.

 

 

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

Finally, I know it's a repeated question, but if you or someone could take some time and break down what the financial needs specifically are and which are live-saving measures and which are "nice to haves," that might prompt some contributions as well. At the most basic level, it would seem that a hosting plan with the bandwidth to handle the boards would be baseline. Then it might be good to chip away at this stuff item by item from there so at the very least we know we'll keep the doors open if it comes to it. 

 

I have no wish to lay all of MPN’s financial details out here for everyone to see.

 

In my experience, team management does not work, especially when there are people involved don’t know the history, haven’t got the time to be caught up on all the details and have no skin in the game.

 

What I’m trying to find out is if the community is willing to help crowdfund MPN.  If so, that’d be really great.  If not, we’ll figure something else out.

 

dB

[Mighty Motif Max]

A few thoughts as one of the younger members here. First, the younger folks like me who heavily use social media (but I stick to forums for gear discussion) are already very used to ads everywhere. I do not know one Gen Z person personally who uses an ad blocker. I’ve tried to promote MPN at college with to music classmates and such (also the MPN hat is worn everywhere). I think what’s hard is that I don’t feel like MPN has done a great job with promoting the sheer depth of knowledge and decades of information here. I think about GearSpace, the Line6 forum, etc, where there’s a much larger general presence in the community. But where is that coming from? Word of mouth, ads, what? I’m not totally sure. 
 

Of course, since clicks matter with ads, they’re going to have to be relevant to the music community. I do not click on random ads - too many sketchy ones on some sites and they’re risky. But ads here wouldn’t have to be keys-specific, just somehow relevant to musicians. That could be anything from software to tutorials/leaning platforms to content production/AV, and of course music gear. Even, say, car ads would be fine IMO. I DO click on ads at GearSpace sometimes. I can deal with a fairly substantial ad density (think TikTok or Instagram) as long as they’re not sketchy “green download button” types of things that make you feel like you might get a virus just by scrolling over one.

 

Secondly, I am not sure that going for a mandatory subscription model would work well. Yes, people will subscribe to Netflix, phone plans, etc. But again if you’re looking at wanting to expand into a younger demographic, there are financial limitations there. Since this forum already isn’t necessarily successfully promoting its content depth to new users, it’s going to be a hard call to add a substantial subscription. I think that membership tiers are the best option in this scenario. Have a higher paid tier for people who truly want no ads - that would very likely bring in more money than the number of ad clicks you would get from those users anyways, so it’s a win-win. Don’t limit posting to paid subscribers - the value proposition isn’t immediately there for newcomers because they haven’t experienced this place.
But have a paid tier that allows listing in classifieds, posting in the promote your music subforum, gives a “supporting member” banner on the profile, and allows uploading attachments (vs linking externally - every file uploaded here is going to take storage space which equals server cost, so I don’t think that needs to be a freebie).

 

Here’s a breakdown summary of what I would consider doing in your position, having seen this sort of situation play out with another site I was involved with starting some years back:

 

- Full ad integration into threads as well as banners (not overkill but an ad island between every few posts would be fine) - ads focused on music gear, tech, AV/content creation, automobiles, masterclass/tutorials, musician album releases/new music, recording/publishing services, and perhaps construction materials/architecture.

- Force a whitelist of adblockers when accessing MPN

 

- Multi-tier membership (subscription prices can be adjusted, however, I wouldn’t recommend going over $10/month for the highest tier):

1. Tier 1 (free): register, read main forums, post in main forums, view & reply-only in Shameless Plugs, *reply* ability to classifieds.

 

2. Tier 2 (upgraded) Tier 1 + ability to view Gearlab Reviews, post new threads in the Shameless Plugs music promo sub-forum, banner under avatar. $3/month

 

3. Tier 3 (supporting): Tier 2 + can list in classifieds, upload files/attachments, $5/month

 

4. Tier 4 (Platinum): Tier 3 + zero ads, can include professional website link in their profile, allows links in signatures. $7/month

- Continue Patreon as an option for one-time/spontaneous donations.

 

- Conspicuously post the advantages of upgrading to higher tiers in every forum - folks don’t seem to read pinned threads, so consider making an island or sidebar with this information instead.

- You’ll want to have an avatar banner for each level to encourage folks to get a little recognition - a little validation can do wonders for some younger people. And if they missed the information sidebar/island, they might wonder what those banners are for - pique their interest a touch.

[Dave Bryce]

BTW - for those of you who are pulling for a bare-bones “lights-on” only version of the forum, I believe I can create a member group that can basically do that here relatively easily.  

 

I’ll strip what folks in that group can see to the bare minimum, just allowing reading and posting in only the music forums - just the basics.  Then, I’ll be happy to switch anyone over to that group and they won’t have to worry about any donations or payments at all.

 

Sound reasonable?

 

dB

[Jonathan Hughes]

23 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

For those of you suggesting subscriptions, we can certainly engage those pretty easily.  What amount do you think is reasonable?

 

Talkbass.com has a nice system with various membership levels: https://www.talkbass.com/account/upgrades

The basic level is $35 per year, and that seems quite reasonable. Higher levels get more perks (including no ads). Talkbass probably has more active users than MPN as a whole but their price levels seem like they could work here.

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Here’s my two cents, although I already said pretty much the same earlier. 
 

A forum is as an obsolete thing and you can’t grow it anymore. You’ll have to deal with that realization. I’d be happy to be proven wrong though. 

 

As I said earlier, it would take a different model. I believe you're thinking too narrowly. It's like saying the idea of having a portable music player is dead because cassette walkmen don't sell anymore.  A different model supplanted casettes (first iPod, then smartphones), but the idea of carrying music around in a portable player persevered. 

 

There's no reason why forums have to use the same model and format they used in 2000. The essence of a forum is interaction among people with similar interests. There are many ways to do that that currently are not being explored.

[MathOfInsects]

5 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

BTW - for those of you who are pulling for a bare-bones “lights-on” only version of the forum, I believe I can create a member group that can basically do that here relatively easily.  

 

I’ll strip what folks in that group can see to the bare minimum, just allowing reading and posting in only the music forums - just the basics.  Then, I’ll be happy to switch anyone over to that group and they won’t have to worry about any donations or payments at all.

 

Sound reasonable?

 

dB

I think it's just a matter of helping people know what the ask is. From a user standpoint, this feels like a discussion board, much like any other, so "lights on" mode would be, can we be hosted and support the bandwidth requirements? (In people's minds, not in reality.) Sending people to trade shows and the like feels like a whole different component, and is something mad-impressive that you do, but isn't immediately apparent to the Discussion Board model.  That's not to say it's NOT related, I just think in general people need some help being brought there. 

I can't speak for others, but me stumbling on pay-wall content online is generally the same moment that I click away and go find that content for free somehow/somewhere. While the subscription model will certainly bring some $ in, on balance it also has the potential to decrease our traffic. I'll personally be happy to drop $ in the collection jar for this site, but would really suggest crafting a gofundme-type fundraising effort with a particular target at the end. This is the only way PBS and other public-funding campaigns ever reach their targets. It's Ok if the number is "made up" or if the components are invisible, it just helps to bring people along if they know where the finish line is and how we're doing along the way. We'll take your word for whatever that number is, we just need a target to aim for. It's just human-nature marketing stuff. We could do one every year; the specificity just helps to focus people's efforts. It's just that, as we all know as musicians, everyone's a fan until there's a record to buy....

I agree with @Anderton, there are likely other solutions that can add value to the "brand" while strengthening the community. In the short term, I think all of us "regulars" would get behind a fundraising campaign to take some pressure off the electric bill, whether it's paying for lights or a light show. And one takeaway from the thread is that I think we could all stomach ads if it came to it, it's just a matter of ensuring enough clicks for it to matter. Maybe a trial run one month?

[surfergirl]

When I joined it was Guitar Player Magazine and my grandfather subscribed to the magazine. Would have joined if there were a subscribed? I'm not sure. To the situation at hand, I would pay a subscription, but if I were not already a member would I pay a subscription to join? probably not. So there is the problem, would members pay? Yes, would people join? Questionable.

[Motif88]

Just signed up for Patreon at $6/month...hope that helps!

[Dave Bryce]

35 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I think it's just a matter of helping people know what the ask is.

 The simple version is (to rely on a previously referenced meme) that I’m basically asking the members of the forum if they’re willing to voluntarily contribute approximately the cost of one cup of Starbucks (depending on your drink/drink size, of course) per month to support MPN based on your perception of the current face value you get coming here.  No more, no less.  

 

So, the central question is this:  is MPN in its current form worth some small voluntary monthly donation to help it run?  Again, as the person who would have to figure out, navigate and administrate a subscription model, I would really rather not…mostly because I really don’t want to MAKE people pay.  My hope is that you’d want to do so on your own.

 

This may sound like a guilt trip.  It isn’t intended as such.  Per brother MOI’s request, I’m just trying to break this ask down to it’s most essential form.

 

dB

[Mighty Motif Max]

Just now, Dave Bryce said:

 The simple version is (to really on a previously referenced meme) that I’m basically asking the members of the forum if they’re willing to voluntarily contribute approximately the cost of one cup of Starbucks (depending on your drink/drink size, of course) per month to support MPN based on your perception of the current face value you get coming here.  No more, no less.  

 

So, the central question is this:  is MPN in its current form worth some small voluntary monthly donation to help it run?  Again, as the person who would have to figure out, navigate and administrate a subscription model, I would really rather not…mostly because I don’t want to MAKE people pay.  My hope is that you’d want to do so on your own.

 

This may sound like a guilt trip.  It isn’t intended as such.  I’m just trying to break this ask down to it’s most essential form.

 

dB

I believe my proposed structure would be in the ballpark of what you would want in terms of outcome. Hopefully you have had a chance to read through that post and it hasn’t gotten buried too quickly. Just a suggestion that I think would meet the needs of multiple groups decently. As I mentioned the actual numbers could be tweaked a bit depending on what the financial picture looks like for you.

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

I believe you're thinking too narrowly. It's like saying the idea of having a portable music player is dead because cassette walkmen don't sell anymore.  A different model supplanted casettes (first iPod, then smartphones), but the idea of carrying music around in a portable player persevered.

That’s a good analogy since the model shifted entirely to streaming services. You subscribe and you have every album in the world anywhere. You have curated playlists or just random shuffle. 

 

The analogy to this is Facebook. You have all the groups and people in the world and there’s all kinds of content in a single feed. 

 

And a forum is like an old audio player. You have one forum for this, another forum for that… it’s like changing CD-s. You can think that changing from CD-s to MP3-s is good but that still won’t work. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I love forums. But I grew with forums. Younger people prefer short videos or tweets or FB posts - you have everything in the world in a single place. There’s no way you can appeal to them with a specialized forum, no matter how well you polish it. They don’t like wasting time going to a separate place on the Internet to just chat with people about something specific. That’s not how their mindsets work now. I have a young kid and I see they work in an absolutely different way than us. They are much more flexible, broader in interests and possessing multitasking than us and can switch focus in a matter of seconds. And they prefer to just browse through a feed with music, games, cats, parties, pics, fun… and filter it in a split second while scrolling through it visually. 

[jazzpiano88]

I like the idea (not sure who suggested it) of a yearly gofundme drive with a targeted goal like PBS.  You raise the money voluntarily and don’t have to change anything.  Unless the drive doesn’t meets its goal.  Maybe you give away some merch at different contribution levels.  

[Dave Bryce]

4 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I believe my proposed structure would be in the ballpark of what you would want in terms of outcome. Hopefully you have had a chance to read through that post and it hasn’t gotten buried too quickly. Just a suggestion that I think would meet the needs of multiple groups decently. As I mentioned the actual numbers could be tweaked a bit depending on what the financial picture looks like for you.

 I did read your post.  I appreciate you taking the time to out it together - thank you!

 

Did you read my earlier post about what the nuts and bolts of implementing a subscription service would entail?

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

15 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I like the idea (not sure who suggested it) of a yearly gofundme drive with a targeted goal like PBS.  You raise the money voluntarily and don’t have to change anything.  Unless the drive doesn’t meets its goal.  Maybe you give away some merch at different contribution levels.  

Doesn’t Patreon essentially accomplish the same thing?  

 

You don’t have to manually donate every month - Patreon handles that for you - so just take the amount you think you’d pledge per year, divide by 12, and make that your monthly Patreon donation.

 

From an administrative point of view, a smaller dependable monthly flow is significantly more helpful than a larger unpredictable annual single influx of $.

 

dB

[ElmerJFudd]

It's a pledge drive, folks.  Things that are of value that need funding... PBS, public jazz and classical radio stations. 

$5 a month or $51 for the year (15% discount).  

 

[Docbop]

Wikipedia  about once a year puts up popups asking for an annual donation, I use Wiki a lot so I donate.   I guess since I have donated a couple times I got an email from them about the upcoming donation period.  They talked about how few people donate and those that do how little they tend to donate.     So even for a tool most use almost everyday either directly or from search engine results people are they don't value it.   Like when people started downloading and stealing music, videos, software, books, etc if it's digital and they can't touch it they think it should be free. 

 

 

 

 

[Motif88]

14 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

Doesn’t Patreon essentially accomplish the same thing?  

 

You don’t have to manually donate every month - Patreon handles that for you - so just take the amount you think you’d pledge per year, divide by 12, and make that your monthly Patreon donation.

 

From an administrative point of view, a smaller dependable monthly flow is significantly more helpful than a larger unpredictable annual single influx of $.

 

dB

Agreed...I didn't realize that you could decide how much you want to pay and control the frequency. I'm in for $6/month and hoping others that use the forums do the same.

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, Motif88 said:

Agreed...I didn't realize that you could decide how much you want to pay and control the frequency. I'm in for $6/month and hoping others that use the forums do the same.

He said the cost of a single cup of Starbucks coffee. By my calculations you're $117/month short.

[jazzpiano88]

42 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

Doesn’t Patreon essentially accomplish the same thing?  

 

You don’t have to manually donate every month - Patreon handles that for you - so just take the amount you think you’d pledge per year, divide by 12, and make that your monthly Patreon donation.

 

From an administrative point of view, a smaller dependable monthly flow is significantly more helpful than a larger unpredictable annual single influx of $.

 

dB

I like the manually paid yearly lump sum.  I’ve started to dislike the monthly subscription as you lose track of everything you’ve signed up for and all of a sudden have 25 payments going out the door automatically and also making it harder to reprioritize if desired.  

[zephonic]

2 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I like the manually paid yearly lump sum.  I’ve started to dislike the monthly subscription as you lose track of everything you’ve signed up for and all of a sudden have 25 payments going out the door automatically and also making it harder to reprioritize if desired.  

 

I think you can do one-time donations on Patreon as well.

 

[zephonic]

We are now at 12 patrons and $75.15 monthly.

 

 

Let’s keep it going, brethren!

[Dave Bryce]

35 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

He said the cost of a single cup of Starbucks coffee. By my calculations you're $117/month short.

Over $120 a cup???? What blend are you drinking??? 🤔😁

 

dB

[MathOfInsects]

3 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

Over $120 a cup???? What blend are you drinking??? 🤔😁

 

dB

I ask for oat milk.

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

They are much more flexible, broader in interests and possessing multitasking than us and can switch focus in a matter of seconds. And they prefer to just browse through a feed with music, games, cats, parties, pics, fun… and filter it in a split second while scrolling through it visually. 

 

In a way, that's what I have in mind. A "virtual town" you can visit that's designed for musicians. A library for content, a theater for videos, forums for discussions, an auditorium for events, a "radio station" for playing the community's music, mall for shopping, all cross-linked so it's easy to hop from one to another (e.g., you see a video that's interesting, you can hop to a discussion about it, or the mall to check out a related product in more detail). That's not germane to this discussion here because it's out of our reach technically. But if Dave Bryce won the Powerball, I'd try to talk him into doing that with MPN

[PianoMan51]

5 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I ask for oat milk.

Never thought about how many oats you would have to milk…

[MathOfInsects]

Just now, PianoMan51 said:

Never thought about how many oats you would have to milk…

And you need tiny little fingers too. It's a very complicated procedure. 

[Michael Wright]

     It seems pretty straightforward.  Dave needs our help,  and the easiest and fastest way to do that,  is to support MPN with the  mechanism already in place.  It may not be the ultimate solution, but seems to be a gauge of the viability of a crowd funding model , as opposed to others, which have drawbacks of their own.   If you value the forum, want to see it flourish, and ensure its continued existence, it's just not a big ask.  The Paetron system has been in place for a while now.      

[Polychrest]

11 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

The Guardian has an average of 1,027,000 readers per issue. If we had that many people checking into MPN, we'd be covered!

They’ve also got serious ad revenue, which we don’t.  But….if we could induce the same proportion of our members to contribute via voluntary subscription equivalents like Patreon or recurring tip-jar style donations, our much more modest modest administrative needs might indeed be covered.  We’ve already got high-quality editorial content—your name’s at the top of the marquee, after all—and our writers all work for free.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Hey Dave,

 

Absolutely- I’ve read every post in this thread before adding to the discussion. My suggestions were intended to address some of those concerns as well. Now granted, part of this is the accounting student in me coming out. To address some of the things you mentioned in that post:

 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

 

• We’d need to figure out an amount that’s reasonable for everybody.  Right there, I’m not a fan.  As I just mentioned, I don’t think that number should be the same for everyone who comes here…and I’d prefer to avoid making the decision about what that amount should be, then having to rationalize/defend it.

Setting up multiple tiers instead of a free tier and a single paid tier lets people pay for what they want. I used to be part of a site called Bandhub. They amassed a massive amount of users and data and originally had the same idea that people should pick what they want to pay and leave it at that. Unfortunately very few people did so, and so they were looking at having to shut down the site due to it needing tens of thousands of dollars per month to keep it running (the main feature was audio/video recording so you can imagine the file sizes). The last ditch effort to try to prevent this was by creating a “Premium” tier that was not very affordable and stripped nearly all the useful functionality from the free version, and also started deleting free users’ previous data (no grandfathering in for the new project number limits and such). They lost nearly everyone because very few people could afford or were willing to pay their subscription price (IIRC ~$45/month) for something that in the big picture wasn’t a must-have. As a result they had to shut down the site permanently.

 

Their primary mistake was making one expensive premium tier that cost a lot and making the free access essentially useless - no new users wanted to come in at that point and the remaining ones were loosing so much and hadn’t budgeted for that extra $540/year - it wasn’t rich professionals using that music collaboration site, it was primarily average hobbyists.
 

What I am proposing is that the most important functionality of this forum, reading and contribution, remains available for everyone. Back on the old platform we didn’t have file attachments or some of the other niceties that we have now. It’s those bonus features that don’t prevent new users from coming in and getting involved with the forum that I’m suggesting we could charge a bit for - especially those that add to server storage needs, like file attachments. Otherwise people can just host off-site like we always did before. But that lessens the future storage needs while bringing in a little money to help with the remaining storage from those who do want to host files here. A win-win.

 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

• I have to configure that amount for different countries, and keep an eye on that constantly as exchange rates fluctuate.

 

Surely there is a way this can be automated, at least in part. For example, PayPal auto-calculates exchange rates when buying overseas. And if you really wanted to directly track exchange rates without having to look all over multiple, scattered sources, a possibility could be writing a short program to pull current values of your primary world currencies into a report that you could run anytime. That data could be tracked with an Excel sheet.
 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

I have to involve a company called Stripe, who are responsible for handling and processing payments on the Invision platform.  They have several hoops that need to be jumped through, of course.

 

This is, unfortunately, one of those things that you would just have to get through. Some of this stuff just comes with the territory in the new era of subscription-everything we live in now. I’m not saying it is fun to get running, but I would hate to see that potential technical difficulty be what sets the future of MPN’s community!

 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

• I have to create a new membership category (Premium Member?), then figure out how to tell the Invision platform who has paid and how to switch them to that new category automatically…or, failing that, I have to manage that manually.  
 

 

I believe this would be a starting place to do that, already present within the Invision umbrella. I haven’t personally used it and I’m not sure how many tiers you can set up but it should be a good starting point at least! https://invisioncommunity.com/solutions/subscriptions/
 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

We have to figure out some way to differentiate the Premium members from the rest in terms of their MPN experience.  I’m not a fan of that, either.  That’d be a bunch of work to figure out and then implement.

I covered some suggestions in my other post for breaking down features based on tiers that don’t deter people from contributing here. I think user groups are a way to do that.

 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

* I have to sell this concept to everyone who is already a member here, including (as recently mentioned above) the non-KC folks who are not participating in this discussion yet.

The breakdown of opinions thus far largely fall into three groups - (1) no payment beyond keeping the “basic” features, (2) full subscription, and (3) voluntary Patreon-like system only, with the rest being a mix or not wanting any charge whatsoever. I believe the 4-tier model I proposed would provide for all of those groups, while also making switching over between them affordable. Having ad-free be the highest tier compensates for any loss of ad revenue from those users.

 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

• I have to figure out and implement some sort of pitch for potential new members that doesn’t change their mind about joining.

Hence my suggestion regarding a sidebar or island explaining the perks of upgrading (like every other subscription place out there now), but having a very solid free option so they can feel out the community. The features I suggested for Tier 1 are what I would expect from a forum ultimately as a younger person, and so I don’t think that setup would turn off people.