The Future of MPN?

[S_Gould]

51 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Do something like YouTube subscribe to not see ads and ads for everyone else.   

 

This sounds like a good compromise.

[Dave Bryce]

55 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Do something like YouTube subscribe to not see ads and ads for everyone else. 

The problem there is that there are ad blockers you can add to your browser that would defeat that model.

 

I believe Craig is correct - a subscription would probably have to come with some sort of premium content not available to those who don't subscribe.

 

dB

[Docbop]

3 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

The problem there is that there are ad blockers you can add to your browser that would defeat that model.

 

I believe Craig is correct - a subscription would probably have to come with some sort of premium content not available to those who don't subscribe.

 

dB

 

Simple like some of the online schools do and have separate discussion area for subscribers to chat among themselves. Maybe product demos from companies for subscribers.   Easy to add perks for subscribers. 

[Dave Bryce]

21 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

A variation is to have a doorway. To get in you open the door. Opening the door sends clicks to an array of advertisers. Is that possible to set up? It bypasses the intrusiveness of ad while it provides the clicks. One obstacle may be that advertisers insist that their product get exposed. Addressing that, the door could have eye candy stickers or photos of products or just logos depending on the company's request. But design it so it is a recognizable door and not a page plastered with ads.

The simple answer: I don't know.  I'm a keyboard player, not a web guy.  

 

Here's a great illustration of what I'm talking about.  It'd be awesome to have enough $ to be able to hire someone who knows what they're doing to help me navigate the control panel and take advantage of the full power of the site.  The migration to Invision brought us a bunch of powerful tools, some of which I've been able to figure out by trial and error and with help from the Invision support community...but a bunch of which are over my head. 😬

 

...and I do not want a volunteer to try and help.  Volunteers tend to have a way of losing interest more easily, where someone hired to do a job does not.

 

dB

[o0Ampy0o]

Brainstorming...

 

Do auctions?

 

If housing, shipping and inspecting gear is too much added complication limit the items to things accessible online (i.e. services, instruction, PDF content, etc.) and postal doc parcels like tickets, gift cards, etc. 

[Dave Bryce]

5 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Brainstorming...

 

Do auctions?

 

If housing, shipping and inspecting gear is too much added complication limit the items to things accessible online (i.e. services, instruction, PDF content, etc.) and postal doc parcels like tickets, gift cards, etc. 

Run by whom?

 

We've got a bunch of ideas.  It's figuring out how to make them work/pay for same that's more the problem.

 

Check this out:  Michael Boddicker wants to get Synthplex involved wth MPN, as Craig mentioned earlier.  Among the assets he has is a whole bunch of unedited video and audio from the performances at Synthplex. He even recorded a bunch of it in 5.1! If we could pay someone to edit those, we could offer them up as premium content. 😎

 

dB

[MathOfInsects]

Brother Dave, perhaps it would be good to break down which expenses are musts for the continued existence of the site--hosting and the like--and which are in the "it would be nice to have" category (paid reps at trade shows, site-specific IT-like person). It is easier to solicit underwriting for a hard number and purpose, than for the general need of better things to be had. Then maybe the fees paid to an IT consultant or to send someone to a trade show, might be specifically underwritten on a case-by-case basis. 

[ProfD]

I'd be fine with contributing via Patreon or subscription. 

 

Just let me know the way forward instead of turning out the lights on the site.😁😎

[Geoff Grace]

43 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

To everyone who is asking how much we need "to keep the lights on":  that's not so easy to figure out.   Basic operating costs aren't the core of the issue - it's more about having our hands tied any time we want to try and add value like paying folks to cover trade shows, do videos, do reviews, curate press announcements, do PR to try and drive new traffic to the site, do the maintenance that the forums/site need on a fairly regular basis, run the MPN Store and more.  Most of that is being done for next to no compensation currently.  Not ideal.  

 

Also, please be assured that we've been trying to figure out how to make MPN work from a financial standpoint for a few years now, including how to do that as inexpensively as possible (of course). 

 

The bottom line here is that we're more trying to get a gauge of whether the community members are inclined to help support the forum's existance; and, if so, what would be the best way to do that.

 

dB

It’s my hope that the forums will remain free, so that anyone can have some level of access to the community. At the same time, it makes sense to charge for the other content (videos, reviews, etc.) to help pay for the labor involved. 
 

As for advertising, I’m fine with it, as long as it doesn’t overwhelm the experience. My understanding is that VI Control manages to cover its expenses that way. Their ads are relatively unobtrusive (although I do sometimes accidentally click on their right margin ads while scrolling on my iPad).

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Dave Bryce]

18 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Brother Dave, perhaps it would be good to break down which expenses are musts for the continued existence of the site--hosting and the like--and which are in the "it would be nice to have" category (paid reps at trade shows, site-specific IT-like person). It is easier to solicit underwriting for a hard number and purpose, than for the general need of better things to be had. Then maybe the fees paid to an IT consultant or to send someone to a trade show, might be specifically underwritten on a case-by-case basis. 

Here's the problem, Josh - doing something like that would require someone who knows what they're doing, and is willing to take on the responsibility of figuring out the nuts and bolts of doing that work, then administrating it after they do.  I've been trying...but I'm simply not that good at this.

 

As previously mentioned, the expenses of keeping the site running are not the lion's share of the problem.  It's doing the things we need to grow the site, keep it interesting and attracting new traffic.  The latter is a big issue....as far as I can tell, very few of the MPN community do much to try and drive traffic here.  I almost never see any posts in social media where members are talking about/sharing what's happening on MPN.  Even more interesting: when I try to start posts on FB or IG to get folks over here to discuss something, they come here and read what I've posted about, then return to FB/IG to talk about it. 🤯

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

17 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I'd be fine with contributing via Patreon or subscription. 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Just let me know the way forward 

 

MPN's Patreon page is here.  

 

dB

 

 

[mynameisdanno]

I'm personally a fan of Patreon for the "public radio" type model of things that work best when free to all, and those who see the value and want to support can kick in.  I subscribed as soon as I noticed there was a MPN Patreon set up.

 

If Patreon numbers aren't going to cut it, the "free with ads, subscribe for ad-free" model seems like the next natural step up.  That maintains the low barrier to entry, generates some revenue, and also generates some revenue from people who want to support the forum but don't want to sign up for a Patreon for whatever reason (and/or hate ads).

[MathOfInsects]

I think ads are fine. I do agree, though, that they only matter if someone clicks through. 

Also, FWIW, I'm not a fan of the "pay us to make this bad thing stop" business model. People generally end up holding the bad thing against the company, rather than paying to end it.  IMO if we went to subscription the site would be functionally dead in a week. 

This whole Discussion Board format is a niche a few times over. One is that it's sort of an old-school construct anyway, another is that it's for a particular sub-population (musicians), and a sub-sub-population within that. 

But your experience with the IG/FB is really the crux of it: most younger users have their 
"communities" wrapped into their social media experiences. It was one thing when a Discussion Board was the only place to talk about something specialized, but now all anyone needs to do is start a Facebook group and "they" will come. 

In my view the way forward is either going to be to introduce some kind of commerce that supports the Discussion Board--retail or other commercial component, which maybe we should consider--or else a host that lets us basically squat for free or the cost of bandwidth, and we keep our size and expectations proportionate to that. 

[mynameisdanno]

49 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

The problem there is that there are ad blockers you can add to your browser that would defeat that model.

 

I believe Craig is correct - a subscription would probably have to come with some sort of premium content not available to those who don't subscribe.

 

dB

 

I don't know what percentage of people use ad blockers, but I'd file that under "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."  There will always be a significant percentage that don't bother with ad blockers, and the people who do bother to enable them don't really represent lost revenue, since they are mostly not people that would ever have actually clicked on an ad if they hadn't blocked them; these are people bothered enough by ads to take extra steps to never see them.  

 

[CyberGene]

A year and a half ago I created the PianoClack forum as a spin-off of PianoWorld forums due to their unfair moderation and poor web experience. I pay the hosting myself and I maintain the forum myself. It has costed me around €5 a month so far. No ads and no need for subscriptions or donations. Unless hosting becomes too expensive for some reason. I see no more than 100 active users here and that’s a reach. You should consider downsizing both the hardware and people resources IMO. 

[Anderton]

28 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

As previously mentioned, the expenses of keeping the site running are not the lion's share of the problem.  It's doing the things we need to grow the site, keep it interesting and attracting new traffic.  The latter is a big issue....as far as I can tell, very few of the MPM community do anything to try and drive traffic here.  I almost never see any posts in social media where members are talking about/sharing what's happening on MPN.  Even more interesting, when I try to start posts on FB or IG to get folks over here to discuss something they come here and read what I've posted about, then return to FB/IG to talk about it. 🤯

 

dB

 

Italics above were mine for emphasis. An issue is that the community has no incentive to help grow MPN. The forum has survived through thick and (mostly) thin, thanks to Dave Bryce. It's easy to take this place for granted. All my books mention MPN, and so do all my workshops and seminars. But that's just one person.

 

There wouldn't even be this discussion if the general community felt emotionally invested enough in MPN to help grow it. That could be as simple as making people aware of threads and inviting them to join the discussion, rather that taking a discussion that starts here over to Facebook. Having a growing community increases the odds of obtaining relevant, targeted ads from companies that would perceive value in what is a pretty awesome group of musicians. That would provide the resources to hire people who actually know how the web and websites work. As Dave has pointed out, he doesn't. I don't either. I can generate content, but knowing how to manipulate SEO for MPN to rise to the top of searches is out of my area of expertise.

 

Simply stated, MPN is not on the radar of company marketing budgets. If it was, and companies valued advertising to a concentrated people who are knowledgeable about music and gear, that would provide the needed resources. End of discussion. Casio is smart enough to sponsor the Keyboard forum, and Cloud to sponsor the recording forum. What would it take to get, say, Fender or Line 6 to sponsor the guitar forum? Or companies to realize how much better the GearLab format is than static reviews on other websites - and drive their users to to the reviews? But even if Dave (or I) knew, that wouldn't be enough. It would still be necessary to hire someone to make it happen.

 

[slowtraveler]

FWIW, I currently kick in a few bucks monthly via Patreon. That's in the same ballpark as the amounts I pay to support my local NPR station and a couple of other online information sources. MPN seems like a great deal to me at $50-$60/year. I'd be happy to continue with Patreon or any other subscription model. Maybe free to read; pay to post?

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

In my view the way forward is either going to be to introduce some kind of commerce that supports the Discussion Board--retail or other commercial component, which maybe we should consider

I’ve actually explored the daylights out of that option.  I’ve tried to partner with manufacturers and dealers, I built and populated the MPN store, I’ve tried putting together several different packages to let potential partners pitch their wares to our community, including the aforementioned pop-up forums…just haven’t been able to come up with a good model.

 

dB

[TommyRude]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

You should consider downsizing both the hardware and people resources IMO. 

In my relatively quick read of this thread, that sounds like going from one to zero. Not so great.

[dazzjazz]

I never click ads, but I’m happy to subscribe or patreon $10 Aussie dollars per month. Not sure if that is enough though. I want this site to continue, and still mourn Keyboard magazine in print form. 

[jazzpiano88]

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

Basic operating costs aren't the core of the issue - it's more about having our hands tied any time we want to try and add value like paying folks to cover trade shows, do videos, do reviews, curate press announcements, do PR to try and drive new traffic to the site, do the maintenance that the forums/site need on a fairly regular basis, run the MPN Store and more.

....

As previously mentioned, the expenses of keeping the site running are not the lion's share of the problem.  It's doing the things we need to grow the site, keep it interesting and attracting new traffic.  The latter is a big issue....as far as I can tell, very few of the MPN community do much to try and drive traffic here.  I

 

I would consider cutting  "paying folks to cover trade shows, do videos, do reviews, curate press announcements".

 

Also, a subscription model would seem to lessen new membership at the same time of spending money to grow the site  ("the expenses of keeping the site running are not the lion's share of the problem.  It's doing the things we need to grow the site, keep it interesting and attracting new traffic").

Do we know how successful these efforts have been, and have a feel for whether the site would die without these efforts if we "just keep the lights on".

 

I'd be willing to pay for a subscription model ($29-$49/yr?) if if wouldn't result in the site dying, either "lights on" only or just enough support to promote the site.

[RABid]

For me it will be easier to give examples of other music forums I visit and how I feel about their ad structure.

 

KVRAudio - Been there for years. They have banner adds, side adds, and a home page with lots of adds. Have to admit that their adds have never bothered me. They are almost always relevant to music, and never one of those deceptive adds that tell you your computer is slow or you may have a virus. They are a model for a site that is full blown add supported without being intrusive. 

 

TalkBass - Add supported along with subscription levels. The lower level prescription does not do away with adds. It gives other benefits like being able to list more items in the for sale area. Gold members are add free. I was gold for a while but last I checked a gold membership was $9 a month. Too much for me. There adds of a much wider variety rather than music themed like KVR, they are also mixed in with the posts, but there is not as many adds.

 

Two forums I visit often have no adds and am I not sure how they manage it. Elektronauts could be supported by Elektron. There is a home page with news and links to sound libraries. ModWiggler also has no adds, but they have a long list of module manufacturers with dedicated forums that may be paying for that right. 

 

I'll be honest, neither the KVR or the TalkBass system seem to be driving people away. I still go there despite the adds, and hardly notice them. The TalkBass subscription was acceptable when I was posting a lot and was working. Now that I am retired, and now that the fee went up, I'll just deal with adds.

 

 

[RABid]

Just to expand a bit one what I said in the previous post, relevant adds are much more likely to be clicked as well as not feeling as intrusive. Taking it a step further, referral links could help. Every YouTubber knows that they can make more money off of referral links than they get from YouTube for views. MusicPlayer should sign up with Amazon, Sweetwater, Perfect Circuit, etc to start earning referral dollars. Any time someone does a review, add links to that product for the reader to click. Any purchase made grants a small kickback and costs the user nothing. I would not mind clicking on a referral link here before buying something from Amazon or some music store.

[Dave Bryce]

28 minutes ago, RABid said:

MusicPlayer should sign up with Amazon, Sweetwater, Perfect Circuit, etc to start earning referral dollars. Any time someone does a review, add links to that product for the reader to click. Any purchase made grants a small kickback and costs the user nothing. I would not mind clicking on a referral link here before buying something from Amazon or some music store.

We’ve had affiliate links for several years.  The Kraft ads, and more recently the Sweetwater ads.  They didn’t my get very many clicks.  I believe that’s the primary reason we lost Kraft.  I carefully picked them as a sort of “neighborhood store” for the forum because they’re a keyboard-centric superstore and yet are still a family owned independent retailer.  Not sure I could have chosen a better partner. 

 

It was great to have had the opportunity to give Kraft an exclusive for as long as we did, too.  As many of you know, it’s been a major goal of mine to keep advertising to as minimal a presence as possible. 

 

dB

[CyberGene]

I don’t think forums can really grow these days. Younger folks are on social networks and video sharing platforms. Forums are mostly for the older generations and some forums are still around to serve the existing members but you can’t really hope to grow them. That’s why I suggested downsizing. Alternatively, you can introduce subscriptions but frankly I wouldn’t pay for a forum either, even though this one is my favorite. I may not be right but you’ll certainly lose a lot of members if you introduce subscriptions. Heck, people don’t even want to subscribe for Logic Pro on the iPad and it’s a tool they will use for making money, e.g. gigging. And now we’re talking about a forum. And I personally hate ads and use AdBlockers all the time. Maybe you should just seek sponsorship?

 

P.S. How about paid features? For instance allow picture/file upload only to paid members whereas the free tier users should upload image/files on external services, etc?

[Dave Bryce]

24 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I don’t think forums can really grow these days. Younger folks are on social networks and video sharing platforms. Forums are mostly for the older generations and they are still around to serve the existing members but you can’t really hope to grow them. That’s why I suggested downsizing.

 

If that’s true and we can’t hope to attract younger audiences, then the life expectancy of this site may be somewhat limited.  That’d be sad - there’s an awesome amount of killer info here, and I’ve always found it to be a pretty entertaining hang. 🥳😁

 

 

24 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Maybe you should just seek sponsorship?

 

I’ve been chasing that notion since I acquired the site, my brother.  We’ve has some success, but it requires a decent amount of maintenance and is more of a time consuming thing to do than you might think…and ad sales is neither my passion nor my forte. 😬

 

I’m happy to have Casio and Cloud Microphones sponsoring two of our forums…but that’s all the advertising we currently have.  I was running Sweetwater affiliate banners for the past few months…but, like the Kraft banners, they weren’t getting many clicks.

 

dB

 

 

[CyberGene]

I just added a P.S. above about separating “premium” features for subscribers but still keeping the base functionality free.

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I'd be willing to pay for a subscription model ($29-$49/yr?) if if wouldn't result in the site dying, either "lights on" only or just enough support to promote the site.

 

Lights On Only mode may be more time consuming that you might think.  At least one person has to take the time to do that.  Right now, that’s me. In addition to what I do onsite (I’m here for several hours every day), I have to maintain an LLC to keep MPN as a viable entity, pay bills, etc. Jim Quinn is a brilliant computer programmer who has helped keep us alive for more years than I can count mostly out of the kindness of his heart.  Gotta have someone like that as well to man the Admin control panel.  We’d have been lost forever many times over the years if it weren’t for brother Jim. 

 

Should the folks who do things like this be paid for their efforts?  If so, what’s their time worth? And where should the $ to pay them come from? 

 

dB

[Doerfler]

When the forum was operated by previous owners, I always subscribed to the magazines they published, hoping that would help keep the forum viable.

 

The fee was annual, or multi year.  This format works best for me.  It costs what it costs.  

 

I have no idea, however, as how to calculate that cost. 

[Dave Bryce]

Just now, Doerfler said:

I have no idea, however, as how to calculate that cost. 

 Me, neither… 🤔😳

 

That’s why I figured the Patreon thing was the best way to go.  Different people use the forum differently, and each one values it in their own way.  I’d like to believe folks should be able to pay what they think is a fair price.  Maybe that’s naive on my part…?

 

dB