The Future of MPN?

[Dave Bryce]

29 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

It's so odd how different all our views of the site are. I've never seen that page that JazzPiano88 just posted. 

The forums are organized into groups.  You can see them on the main TOC page. 

 

The FEATURED group contains SSS, Gearlab and  New Product Announcements.

 

The KEYS AND SYNTHS group has KC and the Keyboard Chronicles.

 

You get the idea...

 

These can be accessed in a couple of ways:

 

1) Click the name of the group in the black bar over that group in the TOC page:

 

 

 

 

 

2) Click the group name in the nesting chain under the black nav bar towards the upper left corner: Home > Featured > Craig Anderton's Sound Stage and Studio:

 

 

Hope that clarifies.

 

dB

 

 

 

[Biggles]

Zero interest in any other section.

 

Even less interest in Advertisements for any USA Company.

 

Not everyone lives in the USA.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Dave Bryce said:

The forums are organized into groups.  You can see them on the main TOC page. 

 

The FEATURED group contains SSS, Gearlab and  New Product Announcements.

 

The KEYS AND SYNTHS group has KC and the Keyboard Chronicles.

 

You get the idea...

 

These can be accessed in a couple of ways:

 

1) Click the name of the group in the black bar over that group in the TOC page:

 

 

 

 

 

2) Click the group name in the nesting chain under the black nav bar towards the upper left corner: Home > Featured > Craig Anderton's Sound Stage and Studio:

 

 

Hope that clarifies.

 

dB

 

 

 

Yes (I want to add "duh" but would never do such a thing). Except nothing on your screen looks anything like what is on my screen, right down to the logo/banner. My MPN experience is completely different from yours, in almost every way.

[CyberGene]

I mostly browse the forum on my iPhone 13 Pro Max which is the biggest iPhone, yet the forum is so cluttered the main topics are well beyond the bottom:

 

Also, I live in Europe and I’m not interested in the US ads. So, I just blocked all banners and subforums I’m not interested in. Here’s how it looks:

 

If you think it can help the forum, I can click on the ads once a month. Not sure about donations though. I only use the forum functionality to read regular user posts and to post myself and I think that functionality alone should be free. 

[MAJUSCULE]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

Yes (I want to add "duh" but would never do such a thing). Except nothing on your screen looks anything like what is on my screen, right down to the logo/banner. My MPN experience is completely different from yours, in almost every way.

You’re making it sound like MPN is some sort of psychedelic experience, brother. 

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

nothing on your screen looks anything like what is on my screen, right down to the logo/banner. My MPN experience is completely different from yours, in almost every way.

 

I haven’t got a clue how that’s possible. 😳

 

I may be able to find out, though. Got pics? 🤔

 

dB

[MathOfInsects]

Sure.

 

That's me putting "forums.musicplayer.com" in the browser, or just clicking the MPN logo. No full-name logo, no categories. Just the rectangular logo and all the posts.

[Dave Bryce]

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Sure.

 

That's me putting "forums.musicplayer.com" in the browser, or just clicking the MPN logo. No full-name logo, no categories. Just the rectangular logo and all the posts.

 

There are two versions of the MPN logo. Some of the themes use the stacked one, some use the horizontal one, so that’s not unusual.

 

Which theme are you using in that pic?  

 

dB

 

 

[o0Ampy0o]

1 hour ago, Dave Bryce said:

 

There are two versions of the MPN logo. Some of the themes use the stacked one, some use the horizontal one, so that’s not unusual.

 

Which theme are you using in that pic?  

 

dB

 

 

I suspect the indicator is in the color of icon highlights. Two themes are dark.  Bravo highlights are white. Dynamic has some blue and some white. Therefore if I am correct,  Math would be using Bravo. Cyber would be using Dynamic.

 

There are two white themes but Jazz could be using either. You need to see the very top of the page where the MPN is either rectangular or horizontal to see the one difference I know of. Default uses the rectangle while MPN1 uses a horizontal.

[Dave Bryce]

Also, I guess that if you choose to use a global dark theme on your phone and your chosen MPN theme's default is light, that could add another dimension.

 

dB

 

[Dave Bryce]

23 hours ago, Biggles said:

Even less interest in Advertisements for any USA Company.

 

Not everyone lives in the USA.

 

I get that.

 

FWIW, There are four ad banners running right now:

 

The MPN Store, which can be patronized worldwide.  

The Casio banner, which links to their website and can pretty much serve anyone worldwide.

The Cloud banner, which also links to their website and can pretty much serve anyone worldwide

The Sweetwater banner, which does link to their store...but no one here really uses it, which is why I had it turned off before it was suggested to me that maybe I should turn it back on.  So far, it's generated ~$50 total revenue since I first implemented it a few months back, and $0 since I turned it back on - so it's not really effective.

 

So, I'm not sure how much water your point holds, although I do understand it in principle.  

 

I've already come to the conclusion that trying to get a ton of banners going like GearSpace has will not work here.  Hence the presence of this thread - to try and find a different solution.

 

 

23 hours ago, CyberGene said:

If you think it can help the forum, I can click on the ads once a month.

 

I actully don't think doing that will help the forum given the current crop of ads.  I need to figure something else out.  Again, hence the presence of this thread.

 

 

23 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Not sure about donations though. I only use the forum functionality to read regular user posts and to post myself and I think that functionality alone should be free. 

 

Oh, I think it should be free, too!  The problem is that these pesky bills keep showing up that need to be paid so the forum will continue to run, and there are maintenance issues that require people's time for which I believe it is not unreasonable that they be compensated.  Yes, even in lights-on only mode.

 

Let me ask you this, Gene - do you think I should pay the operating costs for the forum entirely out of my own pocket?  If not, where would you suggest I get the funds?  Remember, there are more costs than it appears - as previously mentioned, in addition to the fees the forum itself incurs, a business entity (Music Player Network, LLC) had to be created and maintained to be able to pay the bills.  That, too costs money....and not just fees.  So far, my wife has been kind enough to donate her time to run the LLC we had to create, but I think it's unfair to ask her to do that as a favor to me.

 

Follow up question:  over the 23 years that I've been here, I've spend literally hundreds of thousands of hours of my time working on it, both in front of and behind the scenes, almost all of it done for free.  Jim Quinn, our webmaster, also spends a decent amount of time holding up the technical end, and has also been doing so for more years than you want to know, also mostly without being compensated.  Despite your repeated wish that we find a way to provide you with the experience you want for free by doing things like stripping it down to bare bones (which, as I mentioned earlier in the topic, still costs a decent amount of $), a bunch of this work is unavoidable.  Do you contend that it should be done on a volunteer basis? 😬

 

I did think about making a new category with the forum stripped down as far as I can for you and anyone else who feels the way you do...but frankly, I don't want to do that, because it would fall on me to administrate the new category, including choosing what features to bag, which members to assign to the category, etc.

 

Here's another really important point: to keep this forum alive, we simply need to attract new traffic.  That, too, costs $ for things like social media support, coming up with/implementing things we can do to make MPN attractive to potential new community members (e.g. Gearlab, trade show coverage), etc.  Without new traffic, this place will almost certainly wither and eventually die.  That's just a fact.

 

As I said in the very first post in this thread - I've been running into walls trying to figure this out over the past few years, and could sure use help figuring this out.  While I appreciate your comments, suggesting that I should find a way for this forum to be free for everyone without advertising or crowdfunding does not seem to be a workable - or fair - solution.

 

dB

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

You're right, if I switch to the "white" view the banner looks different.

I still don't have the "Featured" and other forums listed that way, no matter what theme I use or how I navigate the site. My "home" page is the threads from whichever forums I choose, including if I choosing none (meaning, all) of them. This is true whether I navigate directly to the site via link or click on the logo to get "home." It's also true whether or not I back the link up to only the .com, or not.

It's possible that this is a preference I've chosen at some point and if I log out things will be different. Since the "other" view exists, I'm guessing that would be the case. I'm only pointing this out to say that some solutions will not be seen by everyone (in the same way that I have never once seen Tom Hanks anywhere on this site, or really in anything good since he stopped doing comedy). In that case, it would be specifically true among members, which is who we would most want to see them. While it could be that I'm the only one on earth viewing the site this way, that doesn't seem likely.

I sort of guessed the "Mrs." factor, which you've hinted at before. In a way this forum is your "one keyboard too many." We'll do our best to keep peace in the kingdom. I haven't donated yet but will ASAP. 

[PianoMan51]

Here’s my five dollars worth of advice, from the head and heart…

 

Dave, make the ‘ask’.

 

Just come out straight and ask us for money. 
 

It will get easier over time.

 

You’re not draining pension funds from widows!

 

Namaste.

[Dave Bryce]

37 minutes ago, PianoMan51 said:

Dave, make the ‘ask’.

 

Just come out straight and ask us for money. 
 

It will get easier over time.

 

You’re not draining pension funds from widows!

 

I thought I had been asking. 🤔

 

Are you telling me I’m being too passive aggressive?  Is the new Donations text box at the top too subtle?  😏

 

I’m really not into the idea of the subscription concept for reasons previously mentioned.  The only thing so far that feels right to me is that community members should be made aware that we could use financial help (and why), but that contributing should be voluntary - the amount should be able to be a matter of individual choice based on each person’s situation and what they feel the experience here is worth to them.

 

I acknowledge that it seems unlikely that there is a solution that will be ideal for everyone.  The “Tip Jar” concept seems to me to be the most flexible, therefore the most equitable.

 

dB

[Atlantic Rich]

I found this site a year ago, and it's been really helpful.  I bought two keyboards without playing them in advance largely based on comments here, plus I've gotten a lot of other great advice just reading the posts.  I'd definitely miss this site if it went away.

 

The tip jar concept works for me.  Just one question - on the banner, it has two links for payment, annual and monthly.  Is there a way to make a one-time contribution?  Just keeping with the tip jar idea.  Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

[PianoMan51]

Dave,

 

You have been asking. 
 

“You didn’t have to be so nice,

We would have liked you anyway “

 

Ask directly. Close the sale. There are hundreds of us who will support you.

 

Jack

[Dave Bryce]

32 minutes ago, Atlantic Rich said:

IThe tip jar concept works for me.  Just one question - on the banner, it has two links for payment, annual and monthly.  Is there a way to make a one-time contribution? 

 

Yes.  Use the Annual payment option, but only pay once.

 

I’ll change the text to make that more apparent. 

 

Thanks!

 

dB

[MathOfInsects]

Speaking only for me, it took me a few pages to figure out that this wasn't really a "what do you think?" thread and was actually a, "do this thing that I need done right now, please" thread. 

It's going to be the regulars, and in general the same ones over and over, who donate. I still think giving us hard numbers and less nebulous indications of what the donations fund, would help keep the spigot on in the long run. Fundraising campaigns routinely delineate not only what is funded, but also how the process is doing along the way.

Personally (as I think either I or others have said, or maybe Tom Hanks said it?), I feel less fire to fund sending folks to trade shows and the like than in keeping the lights on, unless I understand the necessity of it. I think framing it as austerity vs full membership is a bit backward: really, keeping the lights on should be full membership, and underwriting trips to trade shows and the like would be a bonus or elite-tier level of support--a "nice to have," but not a necessity.

Anyway, hopefully stuff is coming in now and keeping a little peace at home...? 
 

[Dave Bryce]

Just now, PianoMan51 said:

Dave,

 

You have been asking. 
 

“You didn’t have to be so nice,

We would have liked you anyway “

 

😊

 

 

 

Just now, PianoMan51 said:

Ask directly. Close the sale. There are hundreds of us who will support you.

 

Okay, sure. I like speaking directly. 😎

 

 

As those of you who are reading this thread are aware, it has been challenging to generate enough income to cover MPN’s operating costs.  With that in mind, we’d like to ask the members of the community to donate to supporting MPN.

 

We’ve provided two ways to do that:

 

Click here for Monthly donations, via our Patreon site

 

or

 

Click here for Annual/One time donations via our MPN Store.

 

There is no minimum or maximum donation amount.   Anything you can contribute is appreciated.

 

Thanks so much!

 

dB

[Lindaru]

1 hour ago, PianoMan51 said:

Here’s my five dollars worth of advice, from the head and heart…

 

Dave, make the ‘ask’.

 

Just come out straight and ask us for money. 
 

It will get easier over time.

 

You’re not draining pension funds from widows!

 

Namaste.

Even some of us widows on pension funds prioritize how we spend those funds.  I, for one, have included us here into my budget.

☺️

 

[Dave Bryce]

28 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Speaking only for me, it took me a few pages to figure out that this wasn't really a "what do you think?" thread and was actually a, "do this thing that I need done right now, please" thread. 

 

I did start out the first post with the phrase, “I need your help”.

 

However, there was, in fact, an element of “what do you think” involved.  There really were several paths available to us, and it was important to me to try and ascertain which path was the best choice for the most people.

 

 

28 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

It's going to be the regulars, and in general the same ones over and over, who donate. I still think giving us hard numbers and less nebulous indications of what the donations fund, would help keep the spigot on in the long run. Fundraising campaigns routinely delineate not only what is funded, but also how the process is doing along the way.

 

As I keep saying - there are lots of things that we could do depending on the funds we have available.  A big part of our goal is growing the membership of the forum, as previously mentioned.   That means doing everything we can to make sure it’s a desirable place for people to spend their valuable time.

 

Please try to understand that I really don’t want to lay MPN’s financial situation - including plans to grow going forward - out on a public forum.

 

 

28 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Personally (as I think either I or others have said, or maybe Tom Hanks said it?), I feel less fire to fund sending folks to trade shows and the like than in keeping the lights on, unless I understand the necessity of it. I think framing it as austerity vs full membership is a bit backward: really, keeping the lights on should be full membership, and underwriting trips to trade shows and the like would be a bonus or elite-tier level of support--a "nice to have," but not a necessity.

 

I appreciate the input, brother Josh.  😊

 

dB

 

[jazzpiano88]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I still don't have the "Featured" and other forums listed that way, no matter what theme I use or how I navigate the site. My "home" page is the threads from whichever forums I choose, including if I choosing none (meaning, all) of them. This is true whether I navigate directly to the site via link or click on the logo to get "home." It's also true whether or not I back the link up to only the .com, or not.

 

Try this:  https://forums.musicplayer.com/forum/3-featured/

 

I got to "Featured" by going to Craig's SSS and seeing this:

 

Then I click "Featured" and there is no KC, which I thought should be "Featured" if we're asking for more support.

 

I think "Featured" isn't a good name for a forum category in MPN under these circumstances.

 

[Dave Bryce]

Just now, JazzPiano88 said:

I think "Featured" isn't a good name for a forum category in MPN under these circumstances.

 

Sure we could probably do better.  I’m open to suggestions. 😎

 

dB

[jazzpiano88]

11 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

 

Sure we could probably do better.  I’m open to suggestions. 😎

 

dB

 

Craig's forum is pretty all encompassing so it's hard to think of a good name for a category. 

 

Maybe "Music/Audio Technology and Product Announcements/Review", the second term covering the Gear Lab and NPA?   Seems pretty clunky.... maybe someone can refine.

Maybe just "Music/Audio Technology"  

[MathOfInsects]

32 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

Try this:  https://forums.musicplayer.com/forum/3-featured/

 

I got to "Featured" by going to Craig's SSS and seeing this:

 

Then I click "Featured" and there is no KC, which I thought should be "Featured" if we're asking for more support.

 

I think "Featured" isn't a good name for a forum category in MPN under these circumstances.

 

I clicked your link, and this is what I got. Below is the whole page minus the footer, there's nothing cut out of this:


 

[o0Ampy0o]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

You're right, if I switch to the "white" view the banner looks different.

I still don't have the "Featured" and other forums listed that way, no matter what theme I use or how I navigate the site....

 

Do you ever clear your cache and cookies on your cell? Sometimes it takes doing it a few times for you to see a truly refreshed location. Your phone is the likely culprit behind not seeing that Featured arrangement. If you are typing in the MPN URL you should not be taken to KC. Something is telling it to go there.

 

I don't recall the Tom Hanks ad or any of the column content displaying on my cell. A cell phone OS could not possibly adhere to conventions of devices tablet size and larger. Everything would be too small to read. It might have displayed is a different arrangement and I just don't remember ever seeing it though.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

15 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

 

Do you ever clear your cache and cookies on your cell? Sometimes it takes doing it a few times for you to see a truly refreshed location. Your phone is the likely culprit behind not seeing that Featured arrangement. If you are typing in the MPN URL you should not be taken to KC. Something is telling it to go there.

 

I don't recall the Tom Hanks ad or any of the column content displaying on my cell. A cell phone OS could not possibly adhere to conventions of devices tablet size and larger. Everything would be too small to read. It might have displayed is a different arrangement and I just don't remember ever seeing it though.

 

 

I'm rarely on my cell when viewing the forum. That single screen shot I posted happened to be, but everything else I am describing or sharing is from my desktop computer, where (alas) I spent most of my hours. 

[o0Ampy0o]

7 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I'm rarely on my cell when viewing the forum. That single screen shot I posted happened to be, but everything else I am describing or sharing is from my desktop computer, where (alas) I spent most of my hours. 

OK something else: the Featured bar expands and in Bravo theme grays/dims and hides the content when closed. You might look elsewhere and never notice. I tune out everything besides what I am looking for unless it gets in my way. 

[CyberGene]

4 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

Let me ask you this, Gene - do you think I should pay the operating costs for the forum entirely out of my own pocket?  If not, where would you suggest I get the funds?  Remember, there are more costs than it appears - as previously mentioned, in addition to the fees the forum itself incurs, a business entity (Music Player Network, LLC) had to be created and maintained to be able to pay the bills.  That, too costs money....and not just fees.  So far, my wife has been kind enough to donate her time to run the LLC we had to create, but I think it's unfair to ask her to do that as a favor to me.

I’m in absolutely no position to suggest you should pay it out of your pocket. At least in this current state of what appears to be a high monthly cost that is not negligible. 

I was wrong to compare it against my own forum which is really cheap because I created it with the sole purpose of offering just a simple forum functionality whereas you’ve  already established a much more elaborate website with other people involved and those people get paid.

 

If for some reason you decide to downsize it and leave only the forum on, I believe it can be pretty cheap though. I am myself paying something around $10-15 a month which includes hosting, domain, AWS storage. But then I’m also maintaining it myself and I’m a software engineer, so maybe not a fair comparison. All that being said, I believe any forum should be free. If there are high costs, they should be covered either by the owner on good will, or a cheap solution be sought, there are actually free forums. For instance, there’s Free Flarum.

 

There’s nothing wrong with asking for donations though. I just hope that if for some reason the donations are not regular and don’t cover your costs you would rather seek a downsizing and cheaper solutions rather than closing it. Maybe it’s just an OCD on my side but I’m not OK with the idea that a forum can be run for free, yet we’re donating for it. It’s not about me paying $5 a month, as already said that’s less than a lunch. It’s just that I’m really obsessed with efficiency and frugality. 

Again, apologies for kind of suggesting what’s not my business.  

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, o0Ampy0o said:

OK something else: the Featured bar expands and in Bravo theme grays/dims and hides the content when closed. You might look elsewhere and never notice. I tune out everything besides what I am looking for unless it gets in my way. 

I don't have that bar. My screenshot shows what I see.