Keyboards with speakers for small gigs

[time4jazz]

I’m looking at the Kawai ES520, which has two 8x12 cm speakers and 40W output power (20W each speaker). Based on your experience, what size gig could this keyboard — or other similar portable keyboards with internal speakers — handle without additional sound support?  Say, a cocktail party with 50 people milling about? Indoor vs outdoor? Thx

[AnotherScott]

Wattage doesn't actually tell you how loud something will be (due to things like differences in speaker efficiency, speaker placement, enclosure design, EQ, and how the wattage is measured). SPL is a more useful spec, but it's not as commonly provided (in keyboards). My old 14 watt Roland FP-2 (7 watts per channel) was much louder than some other pianos of similar power rating. Still, while some 6-8 watt-per-channel pianos are noticeably louder than others, I think anything in the 15 to 20 w/ch range should be enough for background for your 50 person scenario.

[PianoMan51]

A cocktail party of 50 who are politely tittering at social banter, maybe. But as soon as one person starts to tell a loud story with loud responses, that noise level in the room doubles in perceivable volume. And if you follow the physics of sound, doubling volume is a 10dB increase in level which requires an increase of 10 times the power.  Your keyboard will be swamped. And you as a player will be miserable thumping out your tunes that no one can hear.

 

So, I might bring a keyboard with built in speakers to a funeral. But not to any kind of semi-loud function. PS, I’ve played hundreds of these.

[Baldwin Funster]

Once you bring alchohol into the equation the din level climbs per minute. At the start of the gig someone might politely tell you you might be a little too loud. An hour later your 20w onboard speakers are distorting. Half hour after that the clatter of the platters (like that?) And joyful guffaws (I'm on a roll) will have you drowned out. I'd bring  small PA like a passport. It's worth an extra trip to the car.

[Docbop]

Don't forget when they start dancing and the dancers decide you and the piano are something to play Bumper Pool with.  

[ElmerJFudd]

I’ve never been happy with volume or timbre from speakers on a portable slab digital piano.  They typically rattle something in the case when pushed, the mids tend to be harsh and there’s little to no low end.  Most point their speakers up or toward you.  I have a PX560 that points out, but the design is really to get reflection off a wall for the player as well.  

[miden]

IN all my experience with small gigs (and having tried several keys with speakers) all of the above comments are accurate. It sounds like it will be ok in the lounge room, but when you get out there, with A/C noise, people chatting, glasses and plates  - it all just gets buried!

[AnotherScott]

My experience is different from that of the naysayers above. Maybe because I'm thinking more of a "cocktail hour" than an all-night party. To me, the question is what the purpose of the music is. If it's literally background music, it's not important that everyone be able to hear every note, over the occasional rise in other ambient sound. If people in the room can't have a conversation at normal bar-speaking voice, you're too loud for this purpose. Your target volume should be roughly the volume of an actual baby grand piano (which, if you're lucky, the venue will have, and you can leave your board in the car). This does not require tons of amplification.

 

You're not there for them to dance to (unless maybe you were specifically hired for that). If "one person starts to tell a loud story with loud responses" and they can hardly tell you're there, that's fine. That stuff will ebb and flow. Meanwhile, they're having a good time, doing what they came there to do, socialize. They're not there to hear you. You're there for ambience and to fill the quieter times. If you're lucky, a few people may intentionally hang out close because they actually want to hear you. That's not what most people are there for. The last thing you should worry about is being drowned out by people having too good of a time.

 

I'd agree with Elmer that the PX560 (or any Privia) is borderline, I wouldn't choose that unless I at least brought another speaker along with it that I could plug in at a moment's notice. You do want enough volume to to be well heard in the lulls, and for people to at least be able to tell you're there pretty much all the time. But beefier boards can be fine for the purposes I'm talking about, and I would be surprised if the ES520 were not among them, along with the ES920, P515, the FP90X, or Dave's old CP300.

 

OP may also be interested in this thread:

 

[Polkahero]

I recently purchased the ES920 model which has the exact same speaker system.  If I set the volume at about 80 percent it reaches about 95 dB on louder chords which is comparable to my acoustic grand piano.  However, it doesn't seem to fill the room as well as the acoustic because the resonance isn't the same.  The internal speakers are great as monitors but I always bring my pair of EV ZXA1 speakers to fill out the sound especially the bottom end which the internal speakers really lack.

[Reezekeys]

Mr. cynical here. There were cocktail hour gigs I did, usually on a POS out-of-tune piano, in the corner of a room, where I could have mimed playing and nobody would have noticed. Depending on the # of guests, the dimensions of the room, and the amount of reflective surfaces, it would be entirely possible to play a real piano and barely hear yourself. Anyone more than five feet away wouldn't hear you but that doesn't matter because they're not listening to you.

 

Just a suggestion - keep a small powered speaker in your car. Make a trip loading in the Kawai, and depending on the factors I mentioned above, you should have a good idea whether or not to make a second trip back to the car for the speaker.

 

[edit to add - If the gig is outdoors, like a patio, I'm gonna guess you won't need an amp - you don't get that buildup of conversations bouncing around a room so won't be fighting the "din." I'm envisioning the gigs I've done like that, and I believe I could have used a slab DP with decent built-in speakers there.]

[ElmerJFudd]

51 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

My experience is different from that of the naysayers above. Maybe because I'm thinking more of a "cocktail hour" than an all-night party. To me, the question is what the purpose of the music is. If it's literally background music, it's not important that everyone be able to hear every note, over the occasional rise in other ambient sound. If people in the room can't have a conversation at normal bar-speaking voice, you're too loud for this purpose. Your target volume should be roughly the volume of an actual baby grand piano (which, if you're lucky, the venue will have, and you can leave your board in the car). This does not require tons of amplification.

 

You're not there for them to dance to (unless maybe you were specifically hired for that). If "one person starts to tell a loud story with loud responses" and they can hardly tell you're there, that's fine. That stuff will ebb and flow. Meanwhile, they're having a good time, doing what they came there to do, socialize. They're not there to hear you. You're there for ambience and to fill the quieter times. If you're lucky, a few people may intentionally hang out close because they actually want to hear you. That's not what most people are there for. The last thing you should worry about is being drowned out by people having too good of a time.

 

I'd agree with Elmer that the PX560 (or any Privia) is borderline, I wouldn't choose that unless I at least brought another speaker along with it that I could plug in at a moment's notice. You do want enough volume to to be well heard in the lulls, and for people to at least be able to tell you're there pretty much all the time. But beefier boards can be fine for the purposes I'm talking about, and I would be surprised if the ES520 were not among them, along with the ES920, P515, the FP90X, or Dave's old CP300.

 

OP may also be interested in this thread:

 

I don’t disagree with the philosophy of being background music  But there is no portable digital piano with speakers that shares volume, dispersion or attractive timbre with an acoustic baby grand.  Having a proper speaker (or pair) is already a compromise. 
 

Aside from everyone’s desire to have every gig be an easy load in and out (especially when the gig requires location changes, which is typical - 3 locations for ceremony, cocktail and reception) there isn’t any sonic reason to use a slab’s speakers.  I understand fully that some gigs are a lousy situation.  Too many people, too much noise,  too little space, bad acoustics.  When it’s like that it really doesn’t matter at all what we bring. That is very true.  An acoustic piano being there doesn’t save these situations either. Maintained or otherwise. 
 

But very often we’re on ceremony where you can hear a pin drop, or outdoors on a terrace and we’re it.  Or we’re paired, trio’d with acoustic instruments (sax, flute, violin, cello) when the shortcomings of being on an amplified digital become very apparent. If it doesn’t sound decent to us -  joy in playing and interest in playing fade fast.  I can’t speak for everyone, just typing out loud, so to speak. 

[AnotherScott]

I see your point, Elmer, but I think it may be too much of a generalization to imply that there is NO portable with speakers that would be sufficient for the purpose. There are certainly ones that get you closer than the PX-560. If that's the loudest/fullest sounding internal speaker you've used, that could be skewing your perspective. Of course there's also, as you said, the "desire to have every gig be an easy load in and out" and most of the boards with the more satisfying speakers here are also going to, themselves, be on the heavy side. (The ES520 under discussion being among the lightest of these possibilities.)

[obxa]

If you make  a point of fronting any venue you haven't played before, and asking for guest count- then you pretty much know what you'll need to cover the room. But I think guest count is  pretty much the criteria more than size of room.

 

I'd rather have too much than not enough available.  That said,  done several home parties on a Yamaha P255  for only 12 or less guests- used the internals and it was fine.    Left my Bose in the car, but still always bring it. 

 

I constantly have this internal debate with myself when setting up in ceremony/office/event spaces with marble floors that are super reverberant.  Always think I can get by with built-ins, but have usually regretted it once the room filled with guests.

 

I actually think it's always harder to cover outdoor spaces with any system, so wouldn't even attempt it using internal speakers. 

 

RE Acoustic piano.  I often bring a little Mackie 150 or the Bose  to mic up acoustic piano on large cocktail gigs for weddings/corporate/ mitzvahs with 175+ guest counts.  Even with lid fully open,   I find it hard to compete at basic conversational level in typical large  narrow carpeted pre-function areas like those typically outside a ballroom. 

I always end up killing my hands.   Another pianist friend says he purposely plays at lower volume in these situations, thinking it subconsciously makes people listen more.  Hasn't worked for me, but I get the science behind it. 

 

 

[summerinstereo]

I wouldn't even consider this, tbh - cocktail party with 50 people.. you're straight up going to have a hard time hearing yourself. Cocktail parties = alcohol.

Those 50 people are going to sound like 200 people soon enough.

 

I'd consider it for like.. a cafe that holds maybe.. 15-20 people. No alcohol, like half the people.

Cocktail party for 50 people, nah. 

 

Outdoors - forget about it.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Having done this years ago...don't bother if it's anything other than a small room with a dead audience. Outdoors is even worse, especially with any semblance of wind.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

2 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

don't bother if it's anything other than a small room with a dead audience

 

I actually did that twice at funerals.

 

There were no complaints from.....

[Dave Keys]

I wouldn't rely on inbuilt speakers for a gig. They're for the home, not venues which can vary from large churches to tiny rooms. I use a Yamaha DXR10 for Piano Gigs. Where the in-built speakers can come in handy is as monitor speakers, as sometimes I have to position the DXR in a less than ideal position in front of me. When I tried out the RD88 on Saturday I really wanted to like it as that would've solved this for me, but the action wasn't for me. 

[ewall08530]

1 hour ago, Dave Keys said:

I wouldn't rely on inbuilt speakers for a gig. They're for the home, not venues which can vary from large churches to tiny rooms. I use a Yamaha DXR10 for Piano Gigs. Where the in-built speakers can come in handy is as monitor speakers, as sometimes I have to position the DXR in a less than ideal position in front of me. When I tried out the RD88 on Saturday I really wanted to like it as that would've solved this for me, but the action wasn't for me. 

Spot on!  When tempted to only use internal piano speakers for a gig/ performance I ask 2 questions: 

1. Will there be less than a dozen people in the room/area?
2. Are they actively listening or is it a wedding ceremony?
 

If I can’t answer yes to both questions then I’m using a separate speaker. I’ve only had one gig fit the criteria. 
I have a (small)Roland Cube a Bose S1, (larger) QSC K10 and a Bose Pro 8. and I always keep 1 small and 1 larger speaker in my SUV.  

 

[Adan]

Also consider that with internal speakers, you're making the heaviest item in your rig heavier.  Maybe by only 5 lbs, but that can push it over a tipping point where now you need a rolling case, which is also heavier, etc . If it's the dreaded repeated shlep you're trying to avoid, there's small speakers that can be backpacked that will sound and project better than internals.  With all the small sound reinforcement options available, relying on internal speakers doesn't really compute, imo.

 

I like internal speakers for home if I don't have a real piano.  Pushing one button instead of two to start playing appeals to my laziness.  And oftentimes at home you want the sound loudest in your face, not in the room where other people might be trying to watch tv or whatever.

[AnotherScott]

 

 

40 minutes ago, Adan said:

Also consider that with internal speakers, you're making the heaviest item in your rig heavier.  Maybe by only 5 lbs, but that can push it over a tipping point where now you need a rolling case, which is also heavier, etc . If it's the dreaded repeated shlep you're trying to avoid, there's small speakers that can be backpacked that will sound and project better than internals.  With all the small sound reinforcement options available, relying on internal speakers doesn't really compute, imo.

 

 

Total weight is certainly an issue, and I'd avoid something where the internal speakers might also mean needing to go to a noticeably heavier case that I wouldn't have otherwise needed. But the Kawai ES520 under consideration here is 32 lbs, which is typically manageable in a "regular" carry bag. But the issue isn't just avoiding a repeated shlep, but also speed of setup/breakdown. I discussed this and related variables a lot more in that other thread I referenced.

 

My own solution (as of now, at least) ended up being a combination of built-in speakers and your suggestion of a small ("backpackable" or "shoulder-bagable") speaker. It's one trip... keyboard in one hand, stand in the other, carry bag with whatever other stuff I may need, i.e. small speaker, power cords, sustain pedal, maybe iPad and piano-insertable music stand. I may not always need the speaker, but it's there (at least in the car) if I do. And based on the venue (playing location and audience size) and which piano I'm bringing, I'll usually know from the start whether I'll need it or not. If I don't need it, I've got a setup that is that much faster.

 

Another variable here is moving locations. If you're doing a wedding, you may find the internal speakers are fine for the ceremony (where everyone is generally quiet while you're playing, except for the recession where it doesn't really matter how well you're heard), but then you knock down and quickly move to cocktail, and there you may want the extra speaker, which you can have already set up in advance, making the transition that much smoother and faster than if you had to also disconnect and move the speaker. (Speaker setup time also generally includes dealing with AC... I know there are battery powered speakers, but I think the ones of sufficient volume start pushing the weight and/or size limit to keep it comfortably down to a one-tripper.)

[cphollis]

The built-in speakers are designed for your ears, and not a roomful of people. 

And, as with all gigs, it's better to have more volume than needed vs. insufficient volume. 

Even if you're OK 95% of the time, that other 5% will suck.

[time4jazz]

Thanks for all the input so far. Many good things to keep in mind. And it sounds like, even if one brings a powered speaker, having the internal speakers might still be desirable (for monitoring).
 

[obxa]

5 hours ago, cphollis said:

The built-in speakers are designed for your ears, and not a roomful of people. 

On that note.....

With exception of my house Church gig and Nord Stage88 -  Since December,  I've switched to using a Numa X73  (no speakers) for nearly all gigs as my lower and main piano board.  

 

I've noticed there's definitely something missing not  having a bit of that vibration and sound that came from my slab piano's body.  Kind of gave it a bit of an acoustic feel, and the stereo was nice to hear as monitor.   No surprise to those who dislike them,  also made me realize how unpleasant  Bose is when too close. 

 

  For longer DP  gigs, I've been experimenting and preparing to add a sound-bar at my feet for a bit of stereo ambience monitoring.  It's one more thing to drag in, but want to see if it makes the longer nights more tolerable.   I've also thought about using some inconspicuous bluetooth in-ears.,  but worried it would  throw off keeping perspective on volume in the room.   Do in-ears all the time for band, but never have for  DP solo.   Anyone ever try it?

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, obxa said:

I've noticed there's definitely something missing not  having a bit of that vibration and sound that came from my slab piano's body.  Kind of gave it a bit of an acoustic feel

 

Definitely, I've mentioned that in the past as well. And that's somewhere else where beefier speakers can do a better job than lesser ones, though even lesser ones are useful for this.

[cphollis]

I love me some vibration under my fingers.  I thought the vibrating keys on the Yamaha AG would be a gimmick, but they are quite nice to feel, just like on a real AP.   We do quiet rehearsals (all IEMs) so no vibrations there.  But I did plug in a small sub so bass, drums and keys can feel a little sub-100 Hz oomph.  And, of course, plenty of vibrations behind a decent PA system.

[LarsHarner2]

On 3/5/2023 at 8:45 PM, Polkahero said:

I recently purchased the ES920 model which has the exact same speaker system.  If I set the volume at about 80 percent it reaches about 95 dB on louder chords which is comparable to my acoustic grand piano.  However, it doesn't seem to fill the room as well as the acoustic because the resonance isn't the same.  The internal speakers are great as monitors but I always bring my pair of EV ZXA1 speakers to fill out the sound especially the bottom end which the internal speakers really lack.

I often would put a EV ZXA1 next to my Kawai ES8 and it added a lot to the tone. 

For me, I really like my Yamaha P125 because it has a good sound in the lower range, I like the speakers and the rhodes is decent as well. 

[harmonizer]

Our church choir director uses an electronic piano with built-in speakers when we rehearse in the choir room.

I think this is a mistake, in that we the choir singers are not really hearing the piano sounds well enough.

(and there are too many singers who are not paying enough attention to the tempo being mandated by that electronic piano, which should serve as the metronome for every singer).

So I wish he was using some external keyboard amp or powered speaker. (Yes, even a Roland, ha-ha)

 

But in this case we singers in the choir are making a fair amount of noise. So maybe it is not a fair comparison to a cocktail party scenario.