Anyone here using 10" speakers for mains?

[Montunoman 2]

Greetings,

I hope everyone’s week has been better than mine. Long story short, about $5K worth of speakers and tools were stolen from my garage. It really sucks, I feel so down and feel like giving up but I won’t , and thank God my keyboards weren't stolen , too.  Anyways , I will slowly build up my PA rig again.

I was using EVEKX 12 inch ( 2 mains , 2 for monitors) and 2 EV 12” subs. It was a great set up, but the four 12 inch speakers was a bit overkill, I can handle the weight but 12" is a bit bulky, and of course, I'm not getting any younger !  …. Thinking of using all 10 inch as mains.

I still have 2 EV EKX 18 inch subs , and  2 Bose S1 Pro 

My budget is about $2K. I figure with that I can get two new main speakers, use the Bose S1 Pros for monitors, and use the 18" sub(s) when needed. 

I’m thinking maybe 10 inch will do fine especially if I use one of the 18 inch subs.
For a lot of the restaurant and bar gigs I do I didn’t even use a sub anyways so I’m hoping a 10 inch can handle that.

I hear a lot of good things about the QSC
speakers. Something about a "bass boost" setting that  some swear make the a sub not so necessary. Not sure about the 10 inch though. Seems like most folks are using the 10" version as monitors. 

 

I perform mostly at small bars restaurants, and small events. bigger clubs and  events like festivals usually have a sound system. I do mostly Latin variety (salsa, cumbia, bachata, nortena, tejano)  All the bass and drums come out of my arranger keyboard, use a live  sax/flute player, conga player, and we all sing. 

Anyways I need to get 2 mains speakers  soon! 

[mate stubb]

I would not hesitate to use 10" woofer mains, if supported by subs.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I like 10" in general for mains unless you had a ton of low end instruments (which you don't), so 10" plus subs should definitely be a good fit. Look into the Yamaha DXR10 MKII series, or since you like EV, their lineup is great as well (I have the lower-end ELX-200P).

[DJkeys]

I actually think 10" speakers sound better for mains than 12".  I was in two bands at one time, and they both had QSC versions of each.  The 12s have less dispersion and sound much more muddy than the 10s for vocals and instruments beside bass.

 

-dj

[cphollis]

The "bass boost" or "deep" feature with the QSCs is not a gimmick, you get a big dose of engineered bass response thanks to DSP magic.

 

Is it enough?  The bass won't shake anything but it will be present in the mix.

[Delaware Dave]

We had a guy do sound for us this summer and he used 10" QSC's with a bass bin, sounded absolutely fine.

[cassdad]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.  I concur with the previous response posts here.  I have the DXR-10’s, and they will work fine.  The house PA where my band used to play has QSC 10’s…. they are adequate for most situations, unless your band is extremely loud (in which case you need way more than just 12’s).  

[Stokely]

Do you have home insurance, and if so would it cover the loss?  (Reminding me I should probably take vids or whatever I would need to do just in case).

My band has two PAs--a smaller "line array" with little subs and tops from EV (evolve 50) that can handle quite a few of our gigs.  Side to side coverage is amazing with those sticks, you can literally be to the side of it and it sounds fine.  Also you can use them behind the band although we don't (my friend's band does.)

Our more traditional PA consists of QSC subs and QSC 10.2s on top, and it sounds great to my ear.  We typically only bother with one sub but it depends on the place.   Really large shows, which are rare for us, are typically done by a sound company and (IMO) they tend to overdo it quite honestly.   People are tired of getting blasted.  That said, if you need the throw and coverage, you need it.

[Montunoman 2]

21 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Do you have home insurance, and if so would it cover the loss?  (Reminding me I should probably take vids or whatever I would need to do just in case).

 

Yeah, my home insurance covered only  about half the value. They didn't ask for photos or receipts - just a police report, which was a major PITA to obtain. . I am  wondering if I should get some kind of special instrumental equipment insurance? Hopefully there won't be a next time, and this whole mess could have been avoided if stupid me hadn't  of forgotten to close the  f*cking  garage door! 

[Montunoman 2]

22 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Do you have home insurance, and if so would it cover the loss?  (Reminding me I should probably take vids or whatever I would need to do just in case).

My band has two PAs--a smaller "line array" with little subs and tops from EV (evolve 50) that can handle quite a few of our gigs.  Side to side coverage is amazing with those sticks, you can literally be to the side of it and it sounds fine.  Also you can use them behind the band although we don't (my friend's band does.)

Our more traditional PA consists of QSC subs and QSC 10.2s on top, and it sounds great to my ear.  We typically only bother with one sub but it depends on the place.   Really large shows, which are rare for us, are typically done by a sound company and (IMO) they tend to overdo it quite honestly.   People are tired of getting blasted.  That said, if you need the throw and coverage, you need it.

How does the EV Evolve compare to you QSC system?  

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

I perform mostly at small bars restaurants, and small events. bigger clubs and  events like festivals usually have a sound system.

 

Sorry to hear about the theft, that sucks. I hope you have insurance.

 

Based on your quote above, I would agree with the general consensus that 10" mains should work fine. You didn't mention if the PA was for the whole band - meaning your keys, vocals, maybe drums? I don't know what kind of music you play but the idea of needing a sub to play my keys through at a restaurant would be ridiculous for what I do (jazz, r&b/funk). Are you miking drums through the PA at a small bar or restaurant? This is not my world, that's for sure!

 

I have the "deep" switch on my old QSC K8s. Yes, 8 inch speakers and I never use this, even when doing LH bass stuff... the FR is too skewed to the low end with "deep" activated. My two 8" speakers easily provide enough low end for any gig I do where I provide my own sound. Save your back!

[D. Gauss]

i use DBR10's for mains. no sub.  no problem.

[Docbop]

Coming from my decades of guitar and bass I love using multiple 10" speakers if in a good ported cabinet.  My last gigging bass rig was an Epifani 3x10" cabinet with neodymium speakers.  It was a big cabinet but with the neodymium speakers I could still pick it up with one hand.  My last gigging guitar amp was a Fender Princeton that has 1x10" speaker.    10's are very responsive,  develop their sound quickly so easy  to hear when you have to stand/sit close to your amp and 2x10" push more air than a single 12" for volume.     

 

In my last Jazz guitar days before deciding to switch to piano I was using Raezer's Edge 2x8" speaker cabinet with a tweeter.   From all my experimenting over the years I really felt two or more small speaker in good designed ported cabinets were the way to go.  The cabinets are the key to good bottom and dispersion of sound. 

[Stokely]

1 hour ago, Montunoman 2 said:

How does the EV Evolve compare to you QSC system?  

I normally don't get out front that much, and not owning either system I've never compared them A/B...although as I say we have started having me leave the stage to start the show on non-soundman gigs as I have some experience mixing.

I've heard both at practices (not at same time, and the QSCs without the subs).  I think the QSC system sounds a bit better.   It doesn't have the side-to-side coverage that the Evolves have, sometimes that can be needed for odd spaces.   It's easier to bring in and set up the EVs--can't get much faster-- although with rock n roll carts it's not really a big deal with the QSC either.  QSC is physically larger so more of an issue for our bandleader who brings the PA.

We've had other musicians and sound people at our gigs with both systems and comments have been positive with either.

In short, EVs are more convenient but I'd say QSCs sound a bit clearer with more distance throw (I'd suspect) if needed.  Our QSC subs are WAY beefier than the Evolve ones, and in fact we've sometimes taken a sub and combined it with the EVs.  We rarely play loud--many gigs the manager warns us not to, not that we would anyway--so the EVs alone do fine at many spots.

[b3plyr]

I have a duo, and use 2 - K10.2s (mains) and 1 - K8.2 (monitor). I also play a lot of left hand bass. I do not need a subwoofer - not by any means.

 

The K10.2s don’t have the specific bass setting the older K10s do, but they have presets and plenty of capability to EQ. You can get plenty of bass.

[dickiefunk]

I own a few systems from a bigger pair of 15”+18” subs (Yamaha DXR15’s / QSC KW181’s) to three 10” speakers (Alto TS210’s). 
Over the past couple of years I’ve been using the Alto TS210’s a lot more for FOH due to the type and size gigs I’ve been doing. Most of my gigs are jazz trio (piano, vocal, upright bass) and the Alto TS210’s have surprisingly handled these gigs well and in terms of financial return, they have been my biggest earning speakers I have. Whilst the DXR15’s are a clear step up in every regard I am really enjoying not having to carry and set up big heavy speakers. As a result, I’m currently looking to upgrade the TS210’s for a higher quality pair of 10”s with the plan to add a pair of lightweight 12” or 15” subs at a later date. 
 

[AnotherScott]

18 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

You didn't mention if the PA was for the whole band - meaning your keys, vocals, maybe drums?... Are you miking drums through the PA at a small bar or restaurant? This is not my world, that's for sure!

Later in the same paragraph that you quoted (perhaps added in a later edit), he says "all the bass and drums come out of my arranger keyboard" and yup, until I saw that, like you, I was thinking, heck, even 8s should be fine. And they still might be, since even 8s can conceivably handle what is essentially "sequenced" bass and drums, if the space isn't too big, the volume level you need isn't too great, and you're not doing house music or the like. So for Latin music in a small bar/restaurant, that makes me think 8s could still be viable, and especially since he can still add the sub if need be (though the bigger speakers might mean less need to consider using the sub). Basically, the needed impact of the bass and kick are probably the biggest variable here (as opposed to coming at this from a typical keyboard player's perspective).

[Stokely]

With the caveat again that I'm not a live sound person by trade, I had an interesting experience with trying to help out a friend at a city-sponsored street concert recently.  Instead of paying for a sound company they opted to bring their own PA(s) (yep, two, I'll explain) and hire lil ole me to help out with running sound.  Analog console on stage so it meant running out, running back for adjustments.

They had a smaller version of the EV evolves (JBL?  forget the brand) that they put behind the band.  So two 10 or 12" subs, one with each stick.  Also one additional small sub on stage (we shall not speak of any phasing or distance concerns because that is beyond my skill to assess!).     Then to each side facing out, they had two 15" speakers, mainly for the audience; no more subs to go with those.   The mixer simply used two pairs of outputs, same mix, to feed these two sets of speakers.

I was very dubious of this but long story short it actually sounded fine out front and had plenty of volume for the organizer's needs--EXCEPT that those small subs provided no oomph to kick or bass.  You could hear the bass way down the street, up in the >100-200hz area, but nothing down below until you got right up on stage where those small subs were.  So that's where you need the big ones, playing an outdoor street where people a couple hundred feet away or more need to hear the band.  The kick in particular really needed this but there just wasn't anything to be done.

We are doing this same "first friday" show on 11/4 and our band leader opted to have the city hire a sound company.  I spoke to them to try to see what monitoring we could expect and holy cow, they are bringing a PA that could knock over farm animals at 100 paces if they crank it....four huge subs and the rest to match.   I spoke to some people while helping out my friend's band and they said that typically the bands are "too loud" there so I expect our band will be too.  Out of our hands if so but I hope it doesn't drive people down the street.

[Reezekeys]

Seems to me that subs are a way of life for sound companies no matter what the event or style of music. There are many gigs I've done with AWB where there's so much sub in the mix that you can't distinguish the pitch of the notes the bass is playing - it's just a low-frequency thumpy mess. When you think of how this music was presented back in the day, it makes no sense. My feeling is that most of these sound companies' engineers & FOH persons are younger kids who grew up in the dance club era of pounding bass, and they just assume that this subwoofery sound is the way it's done. I'm too old for this shit!

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

And they still might be, since even 8s can conceivably handle what is essentially "sequenced" bass and drums, if the space isn't too big, the volume level you need isn't too great, and you're not doing house music or the like.

 

I have drum loops and sequences in my setup that I sometimes play along with on solo gigs. The sequences include bass tracks with 6-string bass parts playing low Bs, punchy kick drums, etc. My two K8s reproduce everything at what I consider way more volume than needed for any small restaurant or club. There's more than enough low end too. All this with not a trace of audible distortion - crystal clear and punchy. Again - loud enough to get me fired from any restaurant or small club gig, with plenty of low end (no "deep" switch needed)! This with my 13-year old QSC K8s. This is why I'm baffled reading posts about needing subs for keyboard playing in these kinds of venues. Maybe I'm just too old.

[Irena]

So sorry about the theft. I'll cast another vote for 10" drivers over 12" for your application. Crisper and tighter, and capable of covering many rooms provided the audience isn't expecting shock-and-awe thump (wouldn't think so given your genres/instrumentation.)

 

If something like K10's or DXR10's aren't cutting it for your venues, I'd be surprised if the 12's will make enough of a difference to clear the bar. At that point rather than picking up a pair of mid-tier subs, I'd consider investing in one high-quality beast--e.g., JBL SRX, or better yet a Bassboss if I could find a great deal on one. There are different schools of thought on that, but dollar-for-dollar/pound-for-pound, in most rooms I'd favor one great well-placed sub over two meh subs for live keyboards.

[ProfD]

First, add me to the chorus of fellow forumites to type that it's a major bummer to have your equipment stolen. 

 

Regardless of whether the garage door was left open or not, stealing is just wrong.  I hope the authorities  catch the clowns who stole your gear.

 

On 10/19/2022 at 9:56 AM, Montunoman 2 said:

For a lot of the restaurant and bar gigs I do I didn’t even use a sub anyways so I’m hoping a 10 inch can handle that.

Now, as it relates to the PA stuff.  While 10s will work for such gigs, I'd prefer 12s especially if using them as full range mains. 

 

Even if I'm using 10s as mains, I'd bring a single subwoofer for the bump in bass.

 

I digress..

 

Only idiot sound people run subwoofers to the point of trunk rattling and window shaking with no low end definition. 

 

A subwoofer should be run in such a way that bass is present without being obnoxious.

 

A simple test is to turn the subwoofer off.  It should sound like *something* is missing i.e. bottom fell out. 

 

Turn the sub on and the bottom (drums and bass) should be solid without giving chest compressions.

 

Unfortunately, the loudness war when it comes to recording and live sound has resulted in a morass of subharmonic frequencies.  Do not fall for it.

 

Back on topic...

 

Otherwise, 10s will work but my recommendation would be 12s. Good luck replacing your gear. 😎

 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

They had a smaller version of the EV evolves (JBL?  forget the brand) that they put behind the band.  So two 10 or 12" subs, one with each stick.  Also one additional small sub on stage...those small subs provided no oomph to kick or bass.  You could hear the bass way down the street, up in the >100-200hz area, but nothing down below until you got right up on stage where those small subs were.

These "bottom pieces" on the arrays are often not "subwoofers" by any stretch, but more like the "woofer" portion of the speaker, not necessarily going any deeper or having any more bass output than what would be in the 10" or 12" speaker of a conventional speaker like a K10 or whatever.

 

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I have drum loops and sequences in my setup that I sometimes play along with on solo gigs. The sequences include bass tracks with 6-string bass parts playing low Bs, punchy kick drums, etc. My two K8s reproduce everything at what I consider way more volume than needed for any small restaurant or club. There's more than enough low end too. All this with not a trace of audible distortion - crystal clear and punchy. Again - loud enough to get me fired from any restaurant or small club gig, with plenty of low end (no "deep" switch needed)! This with my 13-year old QSC K8s. This is why I'm baffled reading posts about needing subs for keyboard playing in these kinds of venues. Maybe I'm just too old.

I definitely see that in the "small restaurant" context, but "small club" is kind of ambiguous. A small club could still have 100+ people looking for too-loud-to-talk level dance music with thumping bass. (I'm amazed at what deejays bring sometimes, but people can want that stuff.) But like I said, that doesn't sound like his audience, so I agree with you, even 8s (without a sub) sound viable for this.

[Stokely]

For our music (classic rock, some of it danceable depending on the gig) if we bring a sub it's mainly for the kick drum.  We wouldn't have much bass guitar in the frequency below the crossover though we do send a bit of bass guitar to the sub (using an aux).  Keys I don't send to the sub as I generally don't play in the low octave, bass guitar gets its own space!  As ProfD said, it's for that bit of oomph that you wouldn't even notice until it's gone.
 

Having the sub means your tops don't need to worry about those lows so as mentioned I'd think 10s (maybe 8s?) would work.  I know some people use 15s with subs but I'd think that could get muddy.  I'd personally rather have clarity without that oomph than a muddy low end mess, but again I'm not a sound man...though by necessity I am pressed into service for the non-critical, smaller gigs!   Enjoying the thread as it helps to see what you experienced folks are doing.

As an aside, I asked a really experienced guy running sound at our last gig about compression, and was a bit surprised to learn he used it regularly especially for vocals.  I'd always heard to avoid it live, but then that was back in the days of loud stage volume and noise and feedback issues (which could be made worse by compression.)   Today's PAs at low volume are basically silent and we don't have stage monitors, so something to try out and not be shy about.  If it changes things too much, back off

[Montunoman 2]

Thanks guys for the well wishes and advice. I'm really down about this whole ordeal, but a few good things have happened that is putting me in a better head space.

The conductor of the Plano Symphony hired us to play for a surprise birthday party for his wife, who is from the Dominican Republic. Both him and his wife are well known in the classical music world, so it felt affirming to get asked to perform for such accomplished musicians so I guess I don't suck that bad : )

Also, I'm excited to play at my neighbors 50th wedding anniversary. Besides Latin, they requested lots of the old Great American Songbook standards, which I love, and haven't gotten perform since the COVID closed up lots of the senior events.

Finally, a few "Dia de los muertos" ( all souls day) events are coming too. Despite my misfortune, I certainly have a lot to be thankful for, including KC forum, who's members are always so knowledgeable and supportive!

_______

[Montunoman 2]

I picked a pair of QSC K.2 and used them right of the box on a back yard party gig on Saturday night. I'm very pleased with the purchase, and hope to one add a few 8" monitors and a 12" sub. Hopefully I don't encounter any more thieves, and  I will  certainly  more careful!