Covers in a key other than original

[Bill H.]

44 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

 

Find it interesting no one has mentioned who the keyboard player is....  The one of today's greatest film score composers Hans Zimmer. 

In my case, because I forgot? I haven't thought about this song in 40 years!  

[Docbop]

41 minutes ago, Bill H. said:

In my case, because I forgot? I haven't thought about this song in 40 years!  

 

I'm waiting for their next record Streaming Killing the Music Business. 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

I think you can look at playing the same song in different bands is akin to dating different people at once.

 

If you have the right KEY 

 

You can play in any FLAT

[stoken6]

19 hours ago, octa said:

for "Superstition" I'd transpose kb and keep it on the black keys. But, most everything else I'd learn in whatever key band is doing. 

Recent gig I did, the singer called "Superstition, but two semitones down"!

 

I'd never done it in C# before. And this was a new band, so I'm not sure which combination of Clav 1, Clav 2 and/or horns I'm playing. I needed about 5 minutes between sets just to mentally sort out what each part would "feel like".

 

It's all part of the arsenal you need to develop as a gigging musician.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

19 hours ago, octa said:

for "Superstition" I'd transpose kb and keep it on the black keys. But, most everything else I'd learn in whatever key band is doing. 

I've been meaning to do this for a while now and have been too lazy.  Our whole band tunes down but we play that song in E for whatever reason (I honestly can't remember why but probably due to bass/guitar?)  That clav part is obviously different to play in E and I'm not super happy with it.

I'll either un-transpose the keyboard for that song (and sometimes I use multiple keyboards, so a pain and I might forget to change it back) or make specific patches that are transposed back UP so that I can play in Eb 

[MotiDave]

I learn to the key the studio band recorded (noting sometimes bands themselves are de tuned).  If a band wants to shift it, i change the tuning for that song program/patch to match the band.

 

 

To each his own …

 

[Adan]

Muscle memory is finite and limited, so I'm in the camp of making liberal use of transpose for seldom-played covers.  But it's very case by case with several variables to consider. 

 

I'd say for an audition with a cover band it's a virtual no-brainer: hit transpose.  But there could be exceptions there too.  Maybe these cats are gatekeepers to the local music scene who you need to impress, in which case bring your A game.

[Shamanzarek]

Here is the live version of "Oh What a Night" from the 70s presumably with the original band members who recorded it. It begins with a close-up of the piano so you can see it being played in C. On my keyboard I use a split and layer setup which includes a synth sound for the solo and automatically transposes so there is no chance of forgetting to hit the button again. They use an ARP Pro Soloist here but I hear two oscillators on the original recording though the ARP is single oscillator.

 

 

[jerrythek]

???? That's Geoff Downes, not Hans Zimmer.

 

19 hours ago, Docbop said:

 

 

Find it interesting no one has mentioned who the keyboard player is....  The one of today's greatest film score composers Hans Zimmer. 

 

[Al Quinn]

For the OPs scenario it would depend on whether I already knew that song in the original key. If I didn't, I’d learn it in the band’s key for the audition as this takes no extra time and would put me in a good place if I got the gig. If I already knew the song in the original key I might use the transpose button for the audition as that would be a time efficient solution for the 1/2 step transposition they require. The button’s just a tool so why not use it if it helps? Just make sure you switch it back for the next song!

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Shamanzarek said:

Here is the live version of "Oh What a Night" from the 70s presumably with the original band members who recorded it. It begins with a close-up of the piano so you can see it being played in C. 

Yes, and I had seen/heard another live version in C as well. I assume because it was easier for one or more of the singers to sing. I guess that makes it easier for us to justify doing it in C if we want. ;-) (But the official video they mimed to the studio version not only shows the piano part being played in C#, but the bassist is also playing it in C#.)

[Docbop]

2 hours ago, jerrythek said:

???? That's Geoff Downes, not Hans Zimmer.

 

 

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Hans Zimmer is in the video (at 2:50; as another keyboardist who shows up briefly), not on the song.

 

 

[ProfD]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:45 PM, CowboyNQ said:

 

if I do use a transpose aid I ALWAYS program it into the patch so I don’t have to remember to transpose/untranspose in the heat of battle.

Finally, it's been written.

 

As I read through this thread about whether or not to press the button, my 1st thought was that most folks are using a KB(s) that can be programmed with some type of sound, combination or setlist feature that allows baked in transposition. 

 

Call up that "Oh What a Night patch" with the sounds transposed to C# or Db and keep those fingers on the happy keys. 😁

 

As a Rhodes player, I've taken the transposition challenge. No need to go the Irving Berlin route. 🤣😎

[jerrythek]

Ahhhh... I missed that. Cool. Sorry, Doc!

 

 

12 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Hans Zimmer is in the video (at 2:50; as another keyboardist who shows up briefly), not on the song.

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

I used the magic enchangerator last night. The singer wanted "If I Ain't Got You" in F instead of G. Sure, that's an easy transpose, but 12,000 times of playing it in G made me decide I didn't feel like competing in the music olympics for that one song. One muscle-memory blip and I sabotage the whole song. Boom, clap, sound of my transpose button. I played in G, the pitch was in F. Insane in the membrane for three minutes, but flawless out front.

[Dave Number Four]

My workflow:

1. Make a chart in Musescore in the original key of the recording.

2. Use Musescore's transpose function to create a second chart in the band's key (and load it to the ipad).

3. Use the transposed chart with the band.

 

The extra time for making the second chart is about 2 minutes.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Dave Number Four said:

My workflow:

1. Make a chart in Musescore in the original key of the recording.

2. Use Musescore's transpose function to create a second chart in the band's key (and load it to the ipad).

3. Use the transposed chart with the band.

 

The extra time for making the second chart is about 2 minutes.

 

One thing all notation software should be able to do is transpose a chart to different keys! However, you now have to factor in the time to get a nice-looking chart happening. I don't know about you, but that process usually takes me way longer than scrawling out a chart by hand! I'll still do it if it's a song I know might get played more. If that's not the case, I'll just load the mp3, pitch shift it to the wanted key (if needed), then get out the pencil & paper -it's just faster. If the chart is only for me, and unlikely to ever be needed by a sub or anyone else, it doesn't have to be pretty!

 

Having said this, the OP specified only "learning" a song - which brings up the question of whether one might chart a tune in the first place, or play along with it over & over, learn it by rote and memorize it. I don't know about anyone else but I've always charted when the need arises.

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Having said this, the OP specified only "learning" a song - which brings up the question of whether one might chart a tune in the first place, or play along with it over & over, learn it by rote and memorize it. I don't know about anyone else but I've always charted when the need arises.

So far, learning by rote and storing the data to the old memory bank still works. When the need arises is fair.

 

But, I'm not looking forward to a time that I have to chart tunes and carry a book, briefcase or tablet containing them in order to get through a gig.😁😎

[Reezekeys]

I'm thinking whether charting or the "learn & memorize" approach is more or less efficient probably depend on the kinds of gigs one does, whether you're a "gun for hire" playing with a bunch of bands or not, the musical style of the song, etc.

 

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

I'm not looking forward to a time that I have to chart tunes and carry a book, briefcase or tablet containing them in order to get through a gig.😁😎

 

If you were a sideman in a wedding band in the NY area like I was up until about ten years ago, it's highly unlikely you'd be depending on memory alone to get through a typical gig! We all had very thick 3-ring binders stuffed with charts. Mine probably weighed 10 lbs. Carrying all that music (and more) in a tablet is a godsend. Some tunes get called once every six months - I know I can't rely on my memory to get me through in that case! 🙂 

[Al Quinn]

Rob, I can relate because I used to do a lot of weddings in the NYC area. Although I stopped doing that kind of work many years ago, I still have a big book of charts I wrote out for songs way back when. Sometimes I’d have to write out several in a week. I couldn’t possibly remember all of those songs but having them on hand was valuable — especially when subbing with different bands. Don’t ask why I still have them because I don’t know! Maybe there’s something difficult about throwing out what was the result of a lot of time/work. Idk

[Mighty Motif Max]

18 hours ago, ProfD said:

Finally, it's been written.

 

As I read through this thread about whether or not to press the button, my 1st thought was that most folks are using a KB(s) that can be programmed with some type of sound, combination or setlist feature that allows baked in transposition. 

 

Call up that "Oh What a Night patch" with the sounds transposed to C# or Db and keep those fingers on the happy keys. 😁

 

As a Rhodes player, I've taken the transposition challenge. No need to go the Irving Berlin route. 🤣😎

Yeah, I forgot to mention that part in my post lol...if I am transposing things I will typically do it in the setup/multi. My commentary was more that I have just tried to make myself learn things in multiple keys as the years have gone on, maybe for a challenge of sorts. It's gotten easier.

 

I only have one fun story about the pre-programmed transpose in a multi going bad though - I was sending program changes and such to my upper tier keyboard from multis in my Kurzweil. Well, one song we ended up taking down a half step last minute. I transposed the parts on the multi side, but it never occurred to me that I would have to manually adjust the transpose and/or program in a preset in the upper keyboard. Until I was about to go into an exposed organ section and realized I was a half step high on that keyboard...

[Reezekeys]

7 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

Don’t ask why I still have them because I don’t know! Maybe there’s something difficult about throwing out what was the result of a lot of time/work. Idk

 

I can definitely relate - can you imagine adding up the hours writing all those charts out? I still have my book. I actually think my charts have value, though I wouldn't have a clue how to exploit that. To condense a song to one or two pages with accurate chord changes and other arrangement elements (like proper form, hits, pulls, the occasional synth or string lines etc.) is a challenge. In the band I spent most of my years with, we were responsible for keeping our books up to date for possible subs.

 

6 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

I tossed almost all my casual charts a few years back. It felt great.

 

I thought about Hal Galper and his Rhodes when I read this! 🙂 (I'm sure you know the story!).

[Delaware Dave]

Every band that I've played in that tunes down 1/2 step (including my current band and its for vocal reasons) the guitars and bass are tuned down, they don't take a song that's in A and play it in Ab, they tune down and play it in A.  Why would it be any different for the keyboard player?  If I know the song in A why would I learn to play it in Ab, why wouldn't I play it in A and transpose down (just like the rest of the band)?  Also, what happens if you get to the audition and you find out that they tune down and you learned the song in A, but they play it in Ab or even G, are you going to attempt and play any complicated lead in that song in a key you didn't learn it in and potentially blow the audition because you f'd up the songs?  30 years ago I had to learn "vehicle" and the horn parts and hammond parts for a band (we had no horn players).  I found it easier to learn the song in D rather than  D#.  I've been playing that song in just about every band and always play it in D.  With the current band that is a 1/2 step down I don't transpose the song down, for all other bands I transpose the song up 1/2 step and move on.  No one ever says 'hey, you're transposing the song, that's cheating', they usually say 'hey, you really nailed those horn parts, impressive..".  

[Mills Dude]

Would anyone really care if 'Oh What a Night' were performed in C rather that Db ?  I wouldn't bat an eye. If I was asked to learn this for a one off gig, if C were easier to get the keys part together the fastest, then C it is with the transpose button at the ready if needed.  I'd probably be more worried about how the vocalists didn't prepare their parts properly and now I have to play choir director. 

 

Don't remind me about how many times I got emailed a set list for a one-off, prepped the tunes, charted 'em up only to show up at the one-off rehearsal and be told, "Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you, we do that one a step down".  Then have the bass player stand behind me to peek at the charts because he thought he could wing it.  

 

I already earned my "transpose on sight" merit badge in my jazz gigging days.  For pop/rock tunes, if the part requires specific voicings, which many do to capture the essence, sorry I'm using the button.  

 

The only tunes that stuck in my memory are the ones I labored over in my teen years with the boom box cassette deck.  I can still crank out obscure Kansas tunes (insert your favorite prog here),  only problem is nobody really wants to hear those.  Not sure I could play 'Song For America' a 1/2 step down though.  I'd have to woodshed that.  Good thing that tune never appears on those email lists.

[Sean M. H.]

9 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Every band that I've played in that tunes down 1/2 step (including my current band and its for vocal reasons) the guitars and bass are tuned down, they don't take a song that's in A and play it in Ab, they tune down and play it in A.  Why would it be any different for the keyboard player?  If I know the song in A why would I learn to play it in Ab, why wouldn't I play it in A and transpose down (just like the rest of the band)?  Also, what happens if you get to the audition and you find out that they tune down and you learned the song in A, but they play it in Ab or even G, are you going to attempt and play any complicated lead in that song in a key you didn't learn it in and potentially blow the audition because you f'd up the songs?  30 years ago I had to learn "vehicle" and the horn parts and hammond parts for a band (we had no horn players).  I found it easier to learn the song in D rather than  D#.  I've been playing that song in just about every band and always play it in D.  With the current band that is a 1/2 step down I don't transpose the song down, for all other bands I transpose the song up 1/2 step and move on.  No one ever says 'hey, you're transposing the song, that's cheating', they usually say 'hey, you really nailed those horn parts, impressive..".  

 

It's a great question/point...for me personally, the reason I typically learn it in another key has nothing to do with "cheating" persay...In fact, I think the whole idea of attaching some sort of moral clause or "docking points" from a musician as it relates to transposing to be quite silly! 

 

For me, the biggest reason I'll learn it in a different key is because of a longstanding fear I have (though likely unwarranted) of being in a situation where transposing is NOT an option.  I think this may have started subconsciously growing up in the church.  With my gospel band, and playing for various choirs over the years, there's a lot of times where we have no idea what we're walking into in terms of sound reinforcement,  backline, etc. So there's instances where I might carry my own keyboard to a church, only to end up having to play whatever Hammond or acoustic piano is there for various reasons--could be lack of stage space, lack of setup time allotted to us, no/bad PA system etc...so coming from that background, that's where I first developed my reservations about transposing.  Over the years, as I've began to play other genres with other bands, it's much less of a concern--but still...on the off chance we're asked to do some random coffeehouse gig where there's an acoustic piano, I'd rather be able to play comfortably in whatever key the band requires. 

 

As with most of this stuff of course, there's no right or wrong answer here...just different ways to skin a cat, as they say. 

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, Sean M. H. said:

 

It's a great question/point...for me personally, the reason I typically learn it in another key has nothing to do with "cheating" persay...In fact, I think the whole idea of attaching some sort of moral clause or "docking points" from a musician as it relates to transposing to be quite silly! 

 

For me, the biggest reason I'll learn it in a different key is because of a longstanding fear I have (though likely unwarranted) of being in a situation where transposing is NOT an option.  I think this may have started subconsciously growing up in the church.  With my gospel band, and playing for various choirs over the years, there's a lot of times where we have no idea what we're walking into in terms of sound reinforcement,  backline, etc. So there's instances where I might carry my own keyboard to a church, only to end up having to play whatever Hammond or acoustic piano is there for various reasons--could be lack of stage space, lack of setup time allotted to us, no/bad PA system etc...so coming from that background, that's where I first developed my reservations about transposing.  Over the years, as I've began to play other genres with other bands, it's much less of a concern--but still...on the off chance we're asked to do some random coffeehouse gig where there's an acoustic piano, I'd rather be able to play comfortably in whatever key the band requires. 

 

As with most of this stuff of course, there's no right or wrong answer here...just different ways to skin a cat, as they say. 

For the 1/1000 chance of the above actually happening i would tell the band to change the key (and put the pressure on them for once) or tell them that I'll probably F up the song. i've been playing live since the early 80's (40 years) and started touring about 35 years ago. The issue you describe above would have been an issue back then when analog instruments did not have transpose features (and some digital equipment like my Ensoniq keyboards).  I know of few keyboards today (other than an acoustic piano) that dont have a transpose feature, and honestly, at my age it is the least of my worries. In computer programming we call this a corner case, which is when a user wants you to spend $20k programming for a scenario that occurs 1x/year and would otherwise take an additional 5 minutes to do manually, in which my response is 'you'll need to manually deal with that issue when (and if) it actually occurs as we're not spending a ton of money on something that may not even occur or occurs that infrequently'.  From a music perspective I'm not learning a song in 12 different keys for a once in a lifetime event of not having a transpose button at my disposal. The climb aint worth the view....  As always, my two cents which is exactly what my view here is worth......

[drawback]

As I alluded to earlier, you never know when there’s gonna be a Hammond on stage. I gigged regularly at least three venues in Vancouver that had a house Hammond. Playing on your Nord Organ in a transposed key just ‘cause you can’t cut the real thing just doesn’t fly.
 

The OP has an audition for a band - he may not know where it’s going to go, or where it’s going to play. What’s he supposed to do — ask them where they play so he can decide to transpose his keyboard or not? Sheesh.
 

To transpose or not, as a general discussion, isn’t the topic. But if it were, the answer is “it depends.” I still advise in this case, “no.”

[AnotherScott]

I learn in the key we will play it in... but a one-off for an audition might be an exception, if it's a song I could envision myself needing to play in other circumstances.

 

As for what happens if there's a real Hammond at the venue... I don't think I'd be playing Video Killed the Radio Star. ;-)

[Outkaster]

Always the original key.  This came up at practice and most tunes in other than stock keys sound like shit.   Someone wanted to drop something from A flat to Gmajor and it would have sounded terrible.  The drummer agreed.  Not everyone is sensitive to this but I can always tell and I don't have perfect pitch.