Keyboard Amps?

[kwyn]

Some mention that their clonewheels and other keys sound better through an amp, something like a motion sound kp500s or other motion sound.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Does it make a difference going to FoH for the audience coming directly from the keyboard or key largo? 

 

Right now I either use a wedge, powered zlx12, or Shure 215 iems. Would it sound better for me on stage?

[The Real MC]

Plenty of discussion in other threads

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, kwyn said:

Some mention that their clonewheels and other keys sound better through an amp, something like a motion sound kp500s or other motion sound.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Does it make a difference going to FoH for the audience coming directly from the keyboard or key largo? 

 

Right now I either use a wedge, powered zlx12, or Shure 215 iems. Would it sound better for me on stage?

If you’re playing B3 + Leslie cabinet type organ with a clone wheel that has stereo outs, your sound on stage will have more “motion” from a stereo amplifier like the Motion Sound or a pair of powered speakers - like PA monitors.  Sampled digital pianos will also sound better to you on stage with a dual amp system.  As well synth patches with stereo fx like reverb, Chorus, stereo delay.  
 

How well this translates to the audience depends on how large a venue, is the PA supporting just vocals or all instruments.  Where people are located in the room, etc. etc.  

 

Since there’s only so much you have control of - the consensus is if it sounds good to you from your perspective, that’s the best place to start.  
 

 

[kwyn]

41 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

If you’re playing B3 + Leslie cabinet type organ with a clone wheel that has stereo outs, your sound on stage will have more “motion” from a stereo amplifier like the Motion Sound or a pair of powered speakers - like PA monitors.  Sampled digital pianos will also sound better to you on stage with a dual amp system.  As well synth patches with stereo fx like reverb, Chorus, stereo delay.  
 

How well this translates to the audience depends on how large a venue, is the PA supporting just vocals or all instruments.  Where people are located in the room, etc. etc.  

 

Since there’s only so much you have control of - the consensus is if it sounds good to you from your perspective, that’s the best place to start.  
 

 

Good points. Thx. We play small to mid size bars mostly. PA does keys, vocals, micd guitars, micd drums

[Stokely]

I don't really have a choice, I use Iems because we are on small/mid size stages with acoustic drums.  Our drummer is no Animal but it's still WAY too loud for me to willingly stay next to for hours.  

If we go to an electric drum kit (something we have talked about)  I might try going with a small wedge (or two).  I do like the open air sound and feel.   Something like the QSC 8s or 10s would be nice, or maybe Yamaha or RCF etc.  I'm done with cheapo powered speakers, keys sound like crap through them IMO (especially piano).

 

I no longer bother with a separate "amp" for keys, I just get it back in my monitors.  This is mainly because when we run sound, or just about with every sound company, I can control my mix with an app.  If I know beforehand that I'll be working with a sound company that is "old school" or it's unknown whether I'll be able to control my mix, then I might bring a speaker for my keys and run my Key Largo monitor out to it.  I wouldn't trust someone else to run my IEM mix.

[timwat]

There are two separate questions.

 

You're asking specifically,

 

1) "Does it make a difference going to FoH for the audience coming directly from the keyboard or key largo? "

2) "Right now I either use a wedge, powered zlx12, or Shure 215 iems. Would it sound better for me on stage?"

 

Sounding good to you on stage - only you can answer what you prefer. There's an argument that good IEMs will give you the truest representation of what you're playing with the least amount of coloration. Your 215s aren't terribly expensive, but they are good, and reasonably flat enough to be faithful enough. All monitors (vocal wedge, powered PA speaker, kbd amp) will color your sound in some way or another. And some folks like that. Other folks don't like IEMs when the rest of the band has amps. Other folks feel live playing is in the experience of loud amps on stage, etc.

 

What you give to FOH is a separate issue. Best practice is to send the truest, cleanest signal you can give them without coloration. Then let a (presumably competent) sound person to fit your contribution into the overall band mix. The main outs of your Key Largo will do a very good job of this. Using a different tool to connect your keyboard to FOH (someone else's direct box, using a KC350 and mic'ing it, etc.) may not yield best results.

 

[kwyn]

7 minutes ago, timwat said:

There are two separate questions.

 

You're asking specifically,

 

1) "Does it make a difference going to FoH for the audience coming directly from the keyboard or key largo? "

2) "Right now I either use a wedge, powered zlx12, or Shure 215 iems. Would it sound better for me on stage?"

 

Sounding good to you on stage - only you can answer what you prefer. There's an argument that good IEMs will give you the truest representation of what you're playing with the least amount of coloration. Your 215s aren't terribly expensive, but they are good, and reasonably flat enough to be faithful enough. All monitors (vocal wedge, powered PA speaker, kbd amp) will color your sound in some way or another. And some folks like that. Other folks don't like IEMs when the rest of the band has amps. Other folks feel live playing is in the experience of loud amps on stage, etc.

 

What you give to FOH is a separate issue. Best practice is to send the truest, cleanest signal you can give them without coloration. Then let a (presumably competent) sound person to fit your contribution into the overall band mix. The main outs of your Key Largo will do a very good job of this. Using a different tool to connect your keyboard to FOH (someone else's direct box, using a KC350 and mic'ing it, etc.) may not yield best results.

 

Awesome info. Thank you!

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

If you’re playing B3 + Leslie cabinet type organ with a clone wheel that has stereo outs, your sound on stage will have more “motion” from a stereo amplifier like the Motion Sound or a pair of powered speakers - like PA monitors.  Sampled digital pianos will also sound better to you on stage with a dual amp system.  As well synth patches with stereo fx like reverb, Chorus, stereo delay.  

I have found that for the above, PA monitors are too hi-fi for organ/leslie replication.  For all other sounds powered monitors are the way to go; for organ/leslie I am not finding this to be the case, I find that old keyboard amps, which are lo-fi compared to powered monitors, produce a less shrill upper octave than powered monitors where those tones come out of a high fidelity compression horn and thin and shrill the top octave.  As the OP mentioned clonewheels, this is the reason I recommend this.  The dilemma is that old keyboards are horrible for everything else; so in my view the ultimate solution is a powered monitor for everything else and a leslie or old keyboard amp for the organ/leslie replication.  The obvious dilemma is that now we're into dual amplification as well as keyboard amps being beasts to handle (mine is over 80 pounds).  For 80 pounds you might as well start thinking of a Leslie 12 at 85 pounds.  Another alternative is the leslie 2101 which weighs in at 50 pounds.  The problem with those two choices is that both retail in the $1500 range.  Since I have an old keyboard amp laying around (you just can't kill those old Peaveys) the additional cost is $0, but the weight is a killer.  Tried my Motion Sound Pro3T/Low Pro at a major show last weekend, haven't gigged with that for a while, wasn't shrill at the top end like the powered monitor but I still wasn't enamored by the sound coming out of it.  Looked cool though, got alot of compliments about it.

[zxcvbnm098]

I moved from QSC K10's to the MS 610 amp, and have been pleased with the Hammond sounds from my Nord E5.

 

I found the Hammond sounds a little shrill on the QSC's, but between the stereo motion and the amp itself it sounds much warmer and pleasing with the MS. I don't think I have quite the discerning ears as some here in terms of Hammond emulation, but I am digging the MS as an all-around unit for the sounds I use. It's just a shame there isn't really a dealer network to try them out in a store...

[cphollis]

My clonewheel (Nord) demands significant upper-range EQ to be tolerable through full-range sound reproduction.  The upper registers can rip your ears off otherwise, but it's easy to do.  This one includes "amp simulations" (my choices there being twin, JC, small)  which do a great job of taming the sound, especially when teamed with the Leslie sim.  Fixing the sound there fixes it for FOH and everyone who is monitoring.  You're then fine to use full-range powered wedges (mono or stereo), IEMs or whatever without having to consider a special-purpose amp.

[MotiDave]

On 10/6/2022 at 8:52 AM, kwyn said:

Some mention that their clonewheels and other keys sound better through an amp, something like a motion sound kp500s or other motion sound.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Does it make a difference going to FoH for the audience coming directly from the keyboard or key largo? 

 

Right now I either use a wedge, powered zlx12, or Shure 215 iems. Would it sound better for me on stage?

If you’re playing clubs/festivals etc with quality FOH - what you have on stage is simply for you and I tend to not overthink it.  Good festivals have good monitor systems and I don’t even bring a stage amp. 

 

I don’t have a clone, beats me on your first question.  I generally and firmly believe PPAs sound better for all keys than all keyboard amps - that doesn’t mean I’m right.  I think what you want is the cleanest purest reproduction of your key signal - not colored by the amp or speaker.  Any coloring or shaping you want, do it within the keyboard itself

 

Wedge is to generalized to comment - depends on what it is.  ZLX isn’t EV’s best sound quality - you’d get a very noticeable improvement with step up to higher EV lines.  I’ve run the ELX for awhile and love it - but a pair of EKX or ETX are even better and sound simply amazing are a lot more versatile and more powerful.

 

I looked on ms website, I didn’t see they post the SPL output of the KP500 - I don’t look at any amps speakers PPAs etc that don’t post their complete specs.

 

ten more posts will give you ten more opinions, … the answer is personal, you’ll have to decide

[LX 88]

For clonewheel I use bass amps..... but I agree with Delaware Dave....PA stuff is too shrill

 

I often use home stereo amps with full range JBL or EV drivers. Even for digital piano a good JBL will catch all the highs I need ....with some EQ

 

A good some stereo amp will give you plenty of power. I look for Yamaha, Denon and ones with EQ can work well but often have less power.

 

This is a market waiting to happen that I have thought about tapping into. There is a need to skillfully amplify the newer digital pianos.

[Al Quinn]

I’m happy with the sound of the Motion Sound KP-610S. Here’s a video where I’m playing B-3X on an iPad Pro only through the KP610-S (i.e., keys are not going through the PA). 

 

 

[skipeb3]

I don't do it anymore, but years ago I used to use a Peavey Session 400 pedal steel amp for organ. Loud & clean (solid state) and it was an open back cabinet.

I was using a Dynacord CLS222 for the Leslie and since the amp was open backed the sound sort of had that 360 degree thing that you get from a Leslie.

As far as how it sounded out front, we just threw a mic in front of it and let the chips fall where they may. But it sure sounded pretty good to me.

These days I use a pair of powered monitors. Twice the schlep, but twice the sound....

[HammondDave]

I have discovered  that if you have a great clone and a good powered monitor, your Hammond stage sound will be very good.  I tried for so many years to make my clones sound good.  The problem was not in the stage amps, it was in the clones. They will sound shrill if they are shrill. Once I started to use the Mojo, everything sounded great.  I ended up using two 12” EV powered monitors running in stereo for big gigs, and two Alto TS310’s for smaller clubs. Light weight and sounds great. 

[Delaware Dave]

2 hours ago, HammondDave said:

I have discovered  that if you have a great clone and a good powered monitor, your Hammond stage sound will be very good.  I tried for so many years to make my clones sound good.  The problem was not in the stage amps, it was in the clones. They will sound shrill if they are shrill. Once I started to use the Mojo, everything sounded great.  I ended up using two 12” EV powered monitors running in stereo for big gigs, and two Alto TS310’s for smaller clubs. Light weight and sounds great. 

tend to disagree.  I run the Gemini module (EXACT Mojo engine you have) with better EV powered monitors than yours (I believe you had the ZLX series and I have the ELX series).  Still shrill in the top octave, but not as much with my Keyboard amp and none through a tube leslie, so my conclusion is that it is the speaker system and not the clone.  My two cents.

[Reezekeys]

I'm nowhere close to a Hammond or clone aficionado but I tend to agree that, through my QSCs, the organ can sound shrill in the upper register. Is it because Leslie cabinets - by virtue of their tube amps or the drivers themselves – just don't have lots to give in the upper Khz range of frequencies? Just looking at the design of a Leslie rotating horn tells me it's not analogous to a PPA's horn speaker, which is fixed, pointed straight out, and beaming those high freqs continuously. Still, one would think that a clone has EQ or other DSP to approximate the fr of a Leslie (especially if it has an on-board Leslie sim). Could putting a lowpass filter at a clone's output alleviate the shrillness?

[jarrell]

I too am not a Hammond expert, but my understanding as well was that a Leslie just didn't have the high frequency response that a modern accurate full response monitor/speaker has. I also would think the Hammond itself (or any well designed clone/ software instrument) would be capable of putting out those highs, so if you don't use an actual Leslie, you need to roll off some highs, right?

 

[ABECK]

5 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

I’m happy with the sound of the Motion Sound KP-610S. Here’s a video where I’m playing B-3X on an iPad Pro only through the KP610-S (i.e., keys are not going through the PA). 

 

I do so enjoy when the keys are louder than the guitars!   Great solo BTW - builds nicely, with some damn tasty licks.  I wish I could build my solos to be as fluid.

And I'm very impressed that its coming from an iPad.....makes me wonder if I should consider that as an option for live playing.  Hard to argue with what I'm hearing.

 

[JeffKeys]

Nord Stage 3 through a Vent (1) through a MS KP612S. Not shrill to my (admittedly fried) ears.

[HammondDave]

1 hour ago, JeffKeys said:

Nord Stage 3 through a Vent (1) through a MS KP612S. Not shrill to my (admittedly fried) ears.

Didn’t you know that it is illegal to play above the high C on a Hammond clone?

[JeffKeys]

I’ve been aware since I’ve exclusively been using the Nord Stage 88 that I’ve gotten into the habit of using some higher keys than exist on my console organ. I guess I’m not going to beat myself up too much for that. My apologies to the purists!

[Tom Williams]

If they catch you playing above high C, just tell them you used 00-888-0000 registration.  Unless there is a video, they won't be able to prove otherwise in court.