DI Box and other basic questions.

[Montunoman 2]

I usually play resturants/bars,clubs , where I  use my own PA, and I just plug my keyboards directly into my mixer, or sometimes directly into my powered speakers. Works fine.... 

But when I play at larger events, especially festivals with a  big sound system and sound crew provided, the sound  guys sometimes seem  irritated that I don't have a DI box. On top of that, when I request that they run my keyboards in stereo, they make it seem like  that's a major annoyance, saying their DI boxes are mono, blah blah blah... "why didn't you bring your own?!?..." 

 

So I have a few big festivals coming up, and I figure I should buy a DI box for my two keyboards. Also I run our vocalist through a TC Helicon harmony unit. Should I get her a DI box too? 

 

Anyways, I don't really know what to get, or even why I need a DI box. I  just want to stop irritating the sound guys! 

[Delaware Dave]

......

[Delaware Dave]

4 minutes ago, Montunoman 2 said:

I usually play resturants/bars,clubs , where I  use my own PA, and I just plug my keyboards directly into my mixer, or sometimes directly into my powered speakers. Works fine.... 

But when I play at larger events, especially festivals with a  big sound system and sound crew provided, the sound  guys sometimes seem  irritated that I don't have a DI box. On top of that, when I request that they run the keyboards stereo, they make seem like  that's a major annoyance, saying their DI boxes are mono, blah blah blah... "why didn't you bring your own?!?..." 

 

So I have a few big festivals coming up, and I figure I should buy a DI box or my two keyboards. Also I run our vocalist through a TC Helicon harmony unit. Should I get her a DI box too? 

 

Anyways, I don't really know what to get, or even why I need a DI box. I  just want to stop irritating the sound guys! 

How do you get the sound from your keyboards to the Front of House?  Describe the connection that you use or the connection that you want to use, especially if you want to send stereo and you have two keyboards.

[OB Dave]

Many large venues run the house in mono. A stereo keyboard signals summed to mono will sound terrible due to phase cancellation. A large venue will usually have their own DI boxes, but I always carry my own anyway. 

[ElmerJFudd]

48 minutes ago, Montunoman 2 said:

I usually play resturants/bars,clubs , where I  use my own PA, and I just plug my keyboards directly into my mixer, or sometimes directly into my powered speakers. Works fine.... 

But when I play at larger events, especially festivals with a  big sound system and sound crew provided, the sound  guys sometimes seem  irritated that I don't have a DI box. On top of that, when I request that they run my keyboards in stereo, they make it seem like  that's a major annoyance, saying their DI boxes are mono, blah blah blah... "why didn't you bring your own?!?..." 

 

So I have a few big festivals coming up, and I figure I should buy a DI box for my two keyboards. Also I run our vocalist through a TC Helicon harmony unit. Should I get her a DI box too? 

 

Anyways, I don't really know what to get, or even why I need a DI box. I  just want to stop irritating the sound guys! 

The DI box takes your 1/4” cable (typically unbalanced for short distances with little additional noise introduced) and switches it over to an XLR balanced signal which is needed for long distances to deal with all the electromagnetic noise that gets introduced over the distance to the front of house.  The DI box and balanced cable is very effective at providing them a good quality, low noise signal for amplification.  
 

If you have a stereo direct box, you can offer them two mono signals.   If they don’t want two signals from the keys, you’ll have to use your mixer to sum to mono before going to the Di box, but it is a tricky business to avoid phase cancellation issues when summing to mono.   Many keys players working with a band opt to use just the Right (non-summed) out on their keyboards. 
 

Yes if your singer uses her own mic and pedal that’s a line level unbalanced  signal leaving the pedal.  Bring a direct box.  

[Docbop]

You said you have a mixer you could take output of it and send it to front of house.   Doing that you need to check the output of the mixer what type of jacks and if Line or instrument (probably Line on a mixer).    If XLRs the FOH PA guys should be able to use their own mic' cables to connect to you.   If necessary you could probably mix to mono in the mixer if sound crew insists.   Having a good small mixer can make things easier for lots of situations. 

[time4jazz]

I used to rely on the sound guy’s DI box, but they were always crap and made my keyboards sound less good. Now I bring my own Radial passive DI. Much nicer. 🙂

[Baldwin Funster]

36 minutes ago, Docbop said:

You said you have a mixer you could take output of it and send it to front of house.   Doing that you need to check the output of the mixer what type of jacks and if Line or instrument (probably Line on a mixer).    If XLRs the FOH PA guys should be able to use their own mic' cables to connect to you.   If necessary you could probably mix to mono in the mixer if sound crew insists.   Having a good small mixer can make things easier for lots of situations. 

Sometimes you can get into trouble feeding the FOH from your mixer if you also send your monitors a feed from the same mixer. If you adjust your levels during a loud song for instance. When you get louder onstage you get louder in the house mix. But sometimes it's more louder than the sound dude wants or it can clip his board. If your mixer has control room outs with separate volume control, that can help. Or give the FOH a prefader send.

[drohm]

I set the output to mono on my Nord Stage 3 and use a single TS cable to Radial passive D2 DI box (left), then let house plug into XLR (left) output of DI box. If I have two keyboards then I use the right side of DI box for the seconds one. Or you can send stereo from D2, but make sure they pan one channel hard left and other hard right if you want it stereo at FOH.  

[yamahaahamay]

Just as an aside, I would say that you've had bad luck regarding audio engineers. Even the lowliest venues should have a DI for you. Sure, if you have 3+ keyboards or a bunch of other DI channels in the band, I could see them getting annoyed, but what you describe seems unwarranted. I own a couple Radial ProD2's just because they are solid, but I don't think I've ever HAD to use them. If the TC Helicon has XLR output, you won't need a DI.

[JamPro]

I too was surprised to learn sound guys do not generally have DI boxes as part of their sound equipment.

 

And when I once made a post here making fun of sound guys who do not keep DI boxes on hand when doing live sound, a number of forum members asked me why I do not have a DI box as part of my keyboard gear.  I then learned from these forum members that a DI box does something that a keyboard player like myself will want: a DI box can isolate and protect your powered-speaker monitor from damaging electrical signals coming from the FOH mixer (like say if the sound guy mistakenly switches phantom power on the mixer to which you are connected.)

 

So I got myself a nice Radial DI and now it is part of my gig rig.  I don't need it that much, but when I need to connect to someone else's sound system, that is how I do it. 

[mate stubb]

Guard your Radials closely. Sound companies will be more than happy to separate you from yours.

[Reezekeys]

Any  halfway-professional sound company should have a supply of DI boxes - that's basic to any stage setup! "Why didn't you bring your DI" is something I have never heard from any sound co. hired at what anyone might call "festivals with a  big sound system and sound crew provided."

 

So you're dealing with amateurs, and as usual, we have to pick up the slack and do their job for them. And as Moe says, I would not trust the kind of sound company you describe to not walk away with an expensive Radial. I do have a stereo DI box that I carry for emergencies which is a cheap Samson that runs on a 9-volt. I'm sure it doesn't sound like a Radial but it's way less coin, and chances are any difference in sound quality will either go unnoticed by anybody (you or I included), or the FOH person will screw you in the mix anyway so why bother! I'm there to play, that's my job - not to do an amateur sound company's job too.

 

I've had this for years, it's always worked when I needed it to:

 

[Edit - whatya know, I just checked and it's discontinued! I guess you have fork out a bennie or more. I did see this one used on Reverb though: https://reverb.com/p/samson-s-direct-plus-s-class-mini-stereo-direct-box ]

[cphollis]

Personal experience?  Every festival sound company I've worked with has had a bunch of low-end DIs to use with anything that uses a 1/4" instrument cable (guitar, bass, keys, etc.).  Get a nice Radial or two for yourself.  About half of the sound guys balk at stereo, so (as above) I'm always prepared to give them a single mono feed, with me doing the keys mixing.  

 

When I do sound, it's in stereo (smaller venues) and it always sounds lovely.  More and more lead guitarists are showing up with stereo rigs as well, so there's that.  If I'm at a gig where someone appears to be struggling a bit with the sound engineering duties, I'll always offer to help out, as another pair of skilled (free) hands is usually appreciated.

[timwat]

Quick DI tip:

 

Don't. Skimp.

 

The quality of the DI directly impacts your sound. Crappy cheap DIs will pass output, but your rig may sound lifeless, dynamics flattened. 

 

And you will never know unless you a/b it with a good DI like a Radial or Countryman. 

 

You know why Dave Ferris is always raving about the $1K JMK Audio DI rig he uses?

 

Because sometimes, the device you choose for your signal chain makes a big difference. 

[mynameisdanno]

Since nobody's said it yet: the Radial Key Largo is an excellent choice for a combination submixer / passive DI for a small multi-keyboard rig.  I have a few of them for different rigs, and am using one on a major tour right now - the same first Key Largo I bought when they first came out and have been using ever since.  If you want to bring your own stage amp or powered wedge acting as an amp (which I personally always do, unless I have 100% trust in the monitor engineer), you can connect your amp to the Key Largo's monitor output, and you have easy access to a volume control for your stage sound, without screwing up the FOH mix and everyone else's monitor mix.  And it has a high quality stereo DI built in.  If FOH wants mono due to channel shortage or a mono PA system, just give them the right side only, and then feed your onstage amp with the left monitor output, and you can at least enjoy stereo on stage, and put a little more spaciousness into the room as well, if it's a small enough room for stage sound to be somewhat audible to the audience.  (Obviously you'll want to check your patches at home and make sure they sound good using only the right side, and modify as needed).

 

Incredibly reliable, flexible, sounds great, has never let me down.  My only caveat is I would suggest buying a spare power supply for it since it's kind of an oddball 15V unit and you may not be able to get your hands on a spare in a hurry if it gets lost/forgotten.

[timwat]

Yup, another happy Key Largo user here.

[Werno]

2 hours ago, JamPro said:

I then learned from these forum members that a DI box does something that a keyboard player like myself will want: a DI box can isolate and protect your powered-speaker monitor from damaging electrical signals coming from the FOH mixer (like say if the sound guy mistakenly switches phantom power on the mixer to which you are connected.)

 

More keyboard-specifically, I've read that phantom power can fry your keyboard's outputs, so even if you have balanced outputs on your keys, use a DI between you and FOH.

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, JamPro said:

I then learned from these forum members that a DI box does something that a keyboard player like myself will want: a DI box can isolate and protect your powered-speaker monitor from damaging electrical signals coming from the FOH mixer (like say if the sound guy mistakenly switches phantom power on the mixer to which you are connected.)

 

If you're connecting to the house sound from your powered speaker's pass-through XLR jack, I don't think you'd be using a DI box - those are for connecting 1/4" or 1/8" unbalanced cables. I never heard of an XLR-to-XLR direct box. Maybe you're referring to an in-line isolation transformer? That's what would work in this situation.

 

 

[The Real MC]

3 hours ago, mate stubb said:

Guard your Radials closely. Sound companies will be more than happy to separate you from yours.

Just put a Behringer sticker on them.

[The Real MC]

1 hour ago, timwat said:

Quick DI tip:

 

Don't. Skimp.

 

The quality of the DI directly impacts your sound. Crappy cheap DIs will pass output, but your rig may sound lifeless, dynamics flattened. 

 

And you will never know unless you a/b it with a good DI like a Radial or Countryman. 

 

You know why Dave Ferris is always raving about the $1K JMK Audio DI rig he uses?

 

Because sometimes, the device you choose for your signal chain makes a big difference. 

I have both Radial J series and Countryman Type 10 stereo DIs.  You would not believe how much better the Countryman sounds.

[Adam Burgess]

Expensive - but my Radial JDI Duplex has been useful for more than just DI duties!

[Al Coda]

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Any  halfway-professional sound company should have a supply of DI boxes - that's basic to any stage setup! "Why didn't you bring your DI" is something I have never heard from any sound co. hired at what anyone might call "festivals with a  big sound system and sound crew provided."

 

exactly !

 

Late 70s, I bought 1 mono DI and early 80s I got a custom built 2-channel DI w/ unbalanced line inputs, amp thruputs and transformer balanced mic-level/600 Ohms outputs w/ ground lifts.

That was it for my entire life and the toys collected dust for many decades now.

Every PA company I worked with,- may it be for club gigs or concert touring,- they had the right tools in their arsenal.

When they didn´t, they recognized they have to buy.

That´s production budget,- no ?

 

 

A.C.

[Reezekeys]

16 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

On top of that, when I request that they run my keyboards in stereo, they make it seem like  that's a major annoyance, saying their DI boxes are mono

 

Of course you must have a stereo DI box to get a line from a stereo source! This is an actual sound company still in business?

[Delaware Dave]

When I need a direct box I use one I bought 35 years ago...

 

link 

[allan_evett]

Having a DI, or high-caliber XRL outputs on your rig's mixer is essential. I've carried a Radial Pro D2 for the past decade, also have an ART dual DI as back-up.  The Radial is used in my rig as a dual-mono connection, then I connect the pass-through outputs to inputs on my powered monitor - which has built-in mixer. I just added a tiny, 4-channel mixer between the DI and the cabinet, which solved a problem that's bugged me and gotten worse over the past year: I'm frequently adjusting key levels in my powered monitor - due to varying stage volumes - and having to get up/ lean over and adjust the levels is a big distraction on stage (the mixer is on the lower backside of the monitor).  Having the mini mixer on the keyboard's front panel helps greatly.  

 

I'm strongly considering a Key Largo to simplify all of the above. The only loss would be the lack of individual instrument levels on the monitor output. The Radial KL-8 does offer those, but between the price tag and additional need to include a rack in my live rig it doesn't make much sense - at least with my present gigging situation. 

 

 

[Garubi]

16 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Any  halfway-professional sound company should have a supply of DI boxes - that's basic to any stage setup! "Why didn't you bring your DI" is something I have never heard from any sound co. hired at what anyone might call "festivals with a  big sound system and sound crew provided."

 

So you're dealing with amateurs, and as usual, we have to pick up the slack and do their job for them. And as Moe says, I would not trust the kind of sound company you describe to not walk away with an expensive Radial. I do have a stereo DI box that I carry for emergencies which is a cheap Samson that runs on a 9-volt. I'm sure it doesn't sound like a Radial but it's way less coin, and chances are any difference in sound quality will either go unnoticed by anybody (you or I included), or the FOH person will screw you in the mix anyway so why bother! I'm there to play, that's my job - not to do an amateur sound company's job too.

 

15 hours ago, cphollis said:

Personal experience?  Every festival sound company I've worked with has had a bunch of low-end DIs to use with anything that uses a 1/4" instrument cable (guitar, bass, keys, etc.).  Get a nice Radial or two for yourself.  About half of the sound guys balk at stereo, so (as above) I'm always prepared to give them a single mono feed, with me doing the keys mixing.  

 

When I do sound, it's in stereo (smaller venues) and it always sounds lovely.  More and more lead guitarists are showing up with stereo rigs as well, so there's that.  If I'm at a gig where someone appears to be struggling a bit with the sound engineering duties, I'll always offer to help out, as another pair of skilled (free) hands is usually appreciated.

 

I totally agree.

They have to provide anything needed between your rig and the PA.

That said, I always bring with me a decent stereo DI box because "you never know..." (as I bring a lot of others "save the gig" amenities...) 

[MAJUSCULE]

It’s my anecdotal experience that the more ornery the sound tech, the less professional the show. Not a hard and fast rule, of course, but the true pros are prepared for any situation and happy to help you achieve the best performance possible. Naturally, they also appreciate your preparedness and positive attitude. Doesn’t hurt for either side of the aisle to carry extra supplies.

[Pa Gherkin]

Is there any reason not to use two matching mono DIs for stereo,one L one R ?

[ElmerJFudd]

13 minutes ago, Pa Gherkin said:

Is there any reason not to use two matching mono DIs for stereo,one L one R ?

It depends on if FOH is running in stereo or mono.   If they are running stereo, then they just pan your two monos.  If they run in mono, then your two monos are being summed together and you get phase cancellation issues.
 

Sometimes, they don’t want to use up two channels on their mixing console for keys if it’s a large group.