5 pin din midi, what are you using it for?

[Baggypants]

Pretty much all my setup is usb midi. Boards to iPad, Boards to PC, Boards to Zynthian, I have some din stuff (Poly 800, MC-303, some old Technics piano) but I use usb adaptors for it. I've seen some people be quite vocal about the lack of 5 pin din midi. Is a problem for most people here?

 

I guess something I don't bother with is programming whatever my main board is with program changes to other equipment.

[CyberGene]

The 5-pin MIDI DIN connector is opto-isolated and thus it naturally prevents ground loops. Conversely, I've had a lot of ground loops using USB-MIDI which is the reason why I use the 5-pin DIN whenever I can. Another reason is due to the topology and the specifics of the USB protocol, the MIDI data wrapped into USB packets can (and will) have delays. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you cannot send two consecutive packets more often that every 1ms which is a small lag but is still there, whereas with DIN MIDI you have a constant baud rate without delays, although one can say the constant baud rate limits the bandwidth and thus a heavy MIDI traffic such a multichannel sequence with a lot of program changes and other active data can hit the limitations, whereas on USB MIDI you can group multiple MIDI messages into one USB packet and thus have faster communication despite the max rate of USB packets, provided you don't choke the USB bus with many other devices using it simultaneously.

 

P.S. If you have to connect two keyboards, you can only use 5-pin DIN MIDI. There are a few keyboards that can act as USB hosts and thus you can connect to another one through USB cable but those are rare. I think some Dexibell-s support it. 

[DeltaJockey]

I was still using DIN Midi for chaining synths together, as many don't accept USB in, only out. It's one thing that keyboards don't offer by default....daisy chaining via USB without a computer.

 

It became less of need for me until I bought a Korg D1 which doesn't have USB.

However, it's not an inconvenience for me, as many USB audio interfaces have 5 pin din anyway, so I finally had reason to use them.

I still use the din connectors sometimes as convenient way of switching control between synths and computer without having to physically change cabling.

 

[marczellm]

My live setup does not include a computer. My two or three boards are MIDIed together directly with DIN.

[Reezekeys]

I'm laptop-only and my Roland controller does both USB and 5-pin. I switched to 5-pin for touring strictly for a reliable connection. At some festival gigs with large stages I'm quite far from the laptop. USB does not cut it when you're more than 15 or so feet away. I've used a 50-foot midi cable with no issues. My current cable is a 35-footer iirc. At home, when I was doing my dinky restaurant or small club gigs where the laptop was close by, I used USB midi (I use an iPad for those gigs now).

[UnderGroundGr]

I have many synths without usb port, so i use midi for chaining all these...

[JamPro]

I use 5-pin DIN connections in my studio, to get midi data into the computer and control external sound sources.

My MOTU midi interface is the oldest piece of hardware in my studio.  I bought it in 2000 or so.  MOTU continues to release updated drivers and firmware for it - yeah!!

[Husker]

I have a few synths that their companion software cannot "see" the synth when it is plugged USB into my MioXL  (Argon 8m and Hydrasynth Desktop) are two examples.  As such, I have USB plugged directly into the computer for the companion software, and the DIN ports into the MIOXL for standard midi use.

[vonnor]

I use a combination of the two. Out on the keyboard rig it's always 5-pin (well, 3-pin tbh) din. The physical connection is 10 times more secure. All those midi in's and out's run thru a multi-channel snake to the rack. Inside the rack they pig-tail to a MOTU midi patch bay. That's where it switches to USB -> to a 7-port hub (got a couple VST dongles and audio interface plugged in there as well) -> then on to the laptop.

 

Since the innards of the rack are less likely to get bumped or fiddled with during a show, and always get double-checked for tightness during setup, I'm not that worried about a failure or loose connection there. I've only ever had midi fail once during a show, and that was the USB-C-to-B cable from the laptop to the hub but I had a spare so a quick swap fixed the issue.

 

That hub linked above is not cheap, but it's by far the best I've found - super tight USB-A sockets/jacks.

 

~ vonnor

[Stokely]

Nada.  I might have wanted to use it live to connect my two hardware keyboards (when I bring two), but because the MODX is connected to an ipad it is limited to usb (either/or with midi).  So to connect the two keyboards they'd all need to use usb into a hub.  

I only have hardware for live, and not much of it...everything at home is in the computer except for a midi controller.  My old 90's era controller didn't have usb, but after it died I don't foresee ever using one without usb again.

[stoken6]

I use 5-pin DIN MINI for...everything.

 

It's peer-to-peer, and doesn't require a host, unlike USB. I notice the OP has three hosts (PC, ipad, Zynthian) so lots of opportunities for USB MIDI there.

 

An increasing number of standalone hardware boards include USB host capability, but none of the boards I own can do that. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[EscapeRocks]

I use MIDI DIN when hardware only, example  My MODX+ and Fantom-08 are MIDI'd together via the 5-pin in and out

 

When using Mainstage, I go MIDI/AUDIO over USB   no issues

[Al Coda]

All 5-pin DIN Midi of my gear runs into Midi processor/ matrix switchers.

I don´t want a computer in the ballpark always.

The laptop runs carefully selected software in addition,- and delivers the GUI for my DSP system on demand.

When using laptop w/ native software, there´s at least 1 keyboard controller connected via USB.

 

The kurzweil is my only hardware keyboard offering both, DIN Midi and USB and it depends on the combo what I´m using for Midi,- sometimes both.

 

I also use 3 DAW machines and there are Edirol PCR 300, 500 and Roland A-800 Pro  controllers connected via USB,- an individual controller for each machine.

 

To connect a non-USB keyboard (weighted 88 p.ex) to a DAW via USB, I bought Frontier Audio MIDIexpression iO which also allows up to 4 additional CCpedals/momentary switches which works cascaded w/ a JL Cooper Fadermaster Pro.

 

I like that Midi modularity !

 

😉

 

A.C.

[GovernorSilver]

Keystep 37 for MIDI input to Roland MC-707, or into Korg Opsix/Wavestate if I want MIDI aftertouch and more notes.

 

MC-707 MIDI output to Roland TR-6S for MIDI program change with clip change, and direct MIDI note output

[MPN21]

2 hours ago, Al Coda said:

All 5-pin DIN Midi of my gear runs into Midi processor/ matrix switchers.

 

😉

A.C.

What MIDI processor do you use?

[David Emm]

At this point, nothing. I have the nice XKey dongle with a MIDI Out if needed, but my hardware synth days are mostly done. MIDI is now a term within Logic for assigning a few things or being advised that my controller is cooking properly. If I were to encounter a Roland D-05 for a hundred bucks (HAH!), I'd leap on it as a nice travel item, but for me, USB is working handsomely. Alaska and Puerto Rico are being deluged, but its comfy in my DAW. 🙄

[AUSSIEKEYS]

12 hours ago, Baggypants said:

 I've seen some people be quite vocal about the lack of 5 pin din midi.

 

That'd be me. Hee hee.

 

I love "the DIN" but why cant the two live in harmony like the black and white cookie. (Seinfeld quote). It should be still on there with "the USB". (You can see I miss "the Murphy")

 

If "the USB" must be on there I also want choice of using an accepted link to my older gear not force fed the "new" that I cant use forcing me to buy new keyboards or outboard processors for a simple lack of a DIN socket when it costs very little to keep an old system on there along side the wonder replacement. The process side of it has already been paid for and implemented and the hardware parts needed are cheap.

 

DIN vs USB is like meat vs theglobalist's fake meat. 😉 (i think this is a winking emoji)

 

Meat (the DIN) ; you can live off it and tastes natural, looks good, is robust and is good in most peoples bodies.

 

Fake meat (the USB) : you can live off it but tastes chemical, looks as good as you want to imagine it could look (or as good looking as they tell you), is not a substitute nutrionally and is not happy in as many peoples body (just ask a Coeliac) 

 

USB gives me the shits literally just like fake meat does for some people.

 

disclaimer: the above analogy is just JOKING AROUND (note winking emoji). Trying to be current with my analogy as manufacturers think you should be current with their USB. Winking emoji again 

 

 

 

[Baggypants]

12 hours ago, CyberGene said:

. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you cannot send two consecutive packets more often that every 1ms which is a small lag but is still there,

According to this random webpage that is true, up to usb 1.1, usb 2 (and likely above) is at ~0.1ms  Real data transfer nerdery is also at here. Also, because I was curious, I read here that the rough time it takes to transmit a single full 3 byte note on is around 0.96ms, not that far from the original usb 1.1 spec of 1ms per frame. And that's not even considering that usb1's higher bandwidth could have transmitted a whole 341 notes simultaniously which could then have been reserialised at the far end. Thanks for the rabbit hole!

[Justin Havu]

Everything.  I've stopped using USB directly from a keyboard to a computer due to major ground noise issues.  My main interface is an XR-18, which conveniently has 5-pin DIN in/out.  Nice thing is I can use whatever keyboard I want to use as a master, even if it's not USB-equipped.  If I'm doing something with a ton of hardware, I'll use the XR for audio, then a MIDIPlus 8x8 interface for MIDI.

[Reezekeys]

Being 100% in the box, I normally use USB except for when I'm on the road, as I mentioned in my post above. I'm a little surprised at hearing about the issues with it here, as my only issue was its sensitivity to cable length. At home and with local gigs, I've used USB midi for years without issue. It's much more convenient since it delivers both power and 2-way midi communication to my controller. No need for a wall wart, extra cables or a separate midi interface – that's a pretty big plus to me.

[Reezekeys]

32 minutes ago, Baggypants said:

According to this random webpage that is true, up to usb 1.1, usb 2 (and likely above) is at ~0.1ms  Real data transfer nerdery is also at here. Also, because I was curious, I read here that the rough time it takes to transmit a single full 3 byte note on is around 0.96ms, not that far from the original usb 1.1 spec of 1ms per frame. And that's not even considering that usb1's higher bandwidth could have transmitted a whole 341 notes simultaniously which could then have been reserialised at the far end. Thanks for the rabbit hole!

 

Total speculation but I wonder if the Roland "advanced driver" it lets you choose for its USB-equipped controllers is somehow bypassing the OS buffers or otherwise providing a shortcut or programming hack for more efficient, faster or less jittery midi throughput. I imagine other companies do this as well. In any case, I can't detect any difference in latency with my laptop setup (at a 128 or 256 buffer) no matter if I use 5-pin DIN, Roland "advanced driver", or class-compliant (which my controller also offers).

[obxa]

 

 Live

 Nord Rig:  Weighted Controller  (Yamaha  p255) to Nord compact via 5 pin.   Controller soon to be phased out with NumaX

Organ Rig:  Mojo Classic/Nord Electro2/Hammond Xk3C  to Mainstage via Ik IIO USB midi interface and 5 pin.  If I need piano sounds and low latency.

Bluetooth Midi if I just need pads/strings from Mainstage (or Ipad w Korg stuff)  because  latency isn't as critical.

 

Very occasionally use a Novation 61 controller with Mainstage using it's USB Midi.   But not as brave as you guys, and prefer to use controllers that can make sound in case of emergency.

 

Occasionally use one of these to adapt USB to regular Midi if need to control  Hardware Module directly with Korg Nano controller or Behringer Xtouch  without computer:  

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MZY59B7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1. 

 

Studio.  

I use a lot of old gear and  still need some of the old tech.

 

After trying numerous ground isolators and lifters,  I've  also given up on Keyboard USB Midi (and USB Audio) on my newer synths  (Behringer clones). 

 

 Old School M-Audio interface for input (PC88 or BARP)  and output to Logic, which goes to a Kawai 90's era Midi Patch-bay and feeds:  BARP, and Pro-!   90's era rack mount modules/keyboards daisy chained to patch bay.  (JD990, K2000, MKS-70, Wavestation,) and  OB1K, OBXa (w mid in i)  70's Mini (with BigBriar Midi in). The Oberheims and Mini are super finicky, and require their midi filtered, so need dedicated midi sends (and they don't have thru). 

 

In the 80s I (sloppily) built a 50 ft Midi /AC cable for my Korg Keytar using Thermostat cable.   Worked great. . . 

[NewImprov]

In the studio, I have a ton of stuff connected via a combination of USB and 5-pin MIDI, all patched to 2 computers using a pair of iConnectivity MIO interfaces, connected by RTP Midi over ethernet. A number of the instruments I have are pre-USB, Like the Yamaha DX-7 & TX816, and Nord Lead. I also have several MIDI to CV converters to control stuff in my modular setup.

Live, my setup is a Rhodes Mk1, Crumar Mojo, Sequential Take 5 and an Arturia Keylab 61 controlling a laptop running Mainstage. Sometimes I'll take an Expressive E Touché and/or an Arturia MicroFreak. I have the Keylab,Take 5, Touché and uFreak connected to an iConnectivity MioXM via USB. Recently I had an issue with grounding noise on the Take 5, it was plugged into a powered USB hub with the Touché and uFreak. Unplugging the USB cord from the Take 5 made the noise disappear. I considered connecting it via 5-pin, but I found if I plugged the Take 5 directly into the MIO, bypassing the hub, the noise was gone. The Touché and uFreak are still plugged into the hub, but no noise whatsoever from them.

[Tom Williams]

I invested a bunch in 5-pin MIDI; at one time controllers and mergers and processors used up 6 channels on my MX-8 (I think that's the model from the '90s).   I bought a Mio processor a few years ago because it was all I needed to do the stuff I now do.

 

At this point, my PC4-7 connects to the Nektar controller for both data and power, in one short USB type B cord -- awfully hard to dislike despite my 30+ year happy relationship with 5-pin DIN.  About the only DIN connection I use any more is for driving a DAW drum kit from Simmons-by-GC drum triggers.   I'm seriously considering dumping my other 5-Pin goodies.

[Theo Verelst]

In 1984, I reverse engineered the Midi protocol to prototype my own computer interface, which was successful and of course based on the 5 pin protocol. It's possible to build equipment (see http://www.theover.org/Synth) which responds very accurately to traditional Midi messages, in a fraction of the Midi clock pulse. That means you could use a master Midi keyboard which at the very least has accurate monophonic response time, without protocol timing jitter.

 

Usb midi has higher  bandwidth, but the timing delay can vary so that there's not necessarily a fixed latency. Also, making a Open Source Usb Midi interface which acts as an instrument isn't a commonality.

 

Theo V

[Adam Burgess]

I go between USB and DIN MIDI depending if there's a computer in my set up for that particular gig. I love my little iConnectivity MIDI4+… best of both.

One use case a few years ago was using set-list/Combi mode on a Kronos 61 MIDI'd to a Nord Stage2 for Prog Changes, and Control Changes (FX mutes/levels etc.) to an X32 (via a MIDI Solutions splitter). Not possible with USB without a computer in the middle. Never failed once in over 1000 gigs. I've had more troubleshooting to do with USB - nothing show stopping - just annoying.
 

[DeltaJockey]

2 hours ago, Theo Verelst said:

In 1984, I reverse engineered the Midi protocol to prototype my own computer interface, which was successful and of course based on the 5 pin protocol. It's possible to build equipment (see http://www.theover.org/Synth) which responds very accurately to traditional Midi messages, in a fraction of the Midi clock pulse. That means you could use a master Midi keyboard which at the very least has accurate monophonic response time, without protocol timing jitter.

 

Usb midi has higher  bandwidth, but the timing delay can vary so that there's not necessarily a fixed latency. Also, making a Open Source Usb Midi interface which acts as an instrument isn't a commonality.

 

Theo V

Gosh, that brings back memories! Back in '82 before MIDI, I developed my own communications protocol between my newly designed and prototyped digital sequencer and a couple of Roland Juno6's I hacked into. I called it PMIACS. (Polyphonic Music Interpreter and Control System). Ha Ha , those were the days

[konaboy]

loading patches onto a DX7

[Al Coda]

12 hours ago, MPN21 said:

14 hours ago, Al Coda said:

All 5-pin DIN Midi of my gear runs into Midi processor/ matrix switchers.

 

😉

A.C.

What MIDI processor do you use?

 

Miditemp PMM 88E,- unfortunately long time discontinued, advanced Midi processor, 8x8 5-Pin Din port matrix switcher, 128 MIDI channels, 1HU.

There´s a remote controller housing the display.

You put that into your rig while the unit is somewhere in (offstage-) rack(s).

The remote controller´s cable is a bit short, but  making an extended cable is easy since it´s connector pinout is documented.

There was a optional fiber-optical connection to use several units in a chain.

Tony Banks used two units after he retired his Syco Systems Sycologic 16x16 Midi-matrix switchers.

Very hard to find in good conditionm- but this tool is ultra reliable and never crashed in decades.

I also used the previous model (PMM88) for many years, but it´s remote controller w/ 3-digit only basic display made it harder to program,

The "E" model is lightyears ahead.

 

But only makes sense when there are lot of MIDI devices and when you need more than 16 Midi channels.

 

Everything up to 16 Midi channels is well covered by a Kurzweil keyboard (PC3, PC4, Artis, Forte, K2700,- or the ancient Midiboard)

 

Today when you need more ports/channels this tool might be the best choice,- but it sems ist discontionued already too.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

11 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I'm a little surprised at hearing about the issues with it here, as my only issue was its sensitivity to cable length.

 

It changes when someone (by whatever action) puts mechanical stress on cables being plugged in your laptop´s USB connector (or hub) and the connector being soldered to your laptop´s mainboard breaks.

It typically happens by roadie´s or other´s imprudence.

Your backliner is careful, but PA-, light- crew and other "VIP"s running across the stage while you´re in dressing room or catering aren´t.

I pulled my hair when it happened to an ACER laptop w/ only 2 USB ports.

 

☺️

 

A.C.