Tired of Playing Horn Parts?

[nmchiledude]

14 hours ago, Tom Williams said:

Minority of 1 here, apparently.  Although I don't let them push me around when they want keys plus brass plus strings, I nevertheless enjoy the challenge of playing brass parts and making them sound as much as possible like a real horn band.  For years I've been a proponent of idiomatic playing -- voicing and articulating winds or strings (or for that matter, guitars and mallets) in ways that the real instrument would play, and not like a keyboardist playing samples.

Way back In junior high school I taught myself brass arranging by poring over a (now out of print) book of Chicago transcriptions.  Rewrote wind parts as necessary for various junior high-through-college ensembles over the years.  Arranged stuff of my own.  Channeled James Pankow for years.  On the rare occasions I got to set up a real horn band, I decided I preferred two saxes in the middle voices, not just one.  I love working with real wind instruments.  But I am unlikely to have a horn band in rural West Virginia.

 

Regarding 25 or 6 to 4:  With the exception of the double-tonguing 16th notes at the end of the 6th measure of the horn intro, I think I have it duplicated pretty durned well.  Not only does my band enjoy playing it, but the audience and even other bands go apesh*t.

 

For the octave (!) trombones after the line "fighting just to stay awake," I pull down the pitch bend wheel a whole step, play D3 and D4, and then move the pitch bend wheel up to the other end, a major third up, mimicing the trombone riff going from 6th to 2nd position, C to E.

 

The patch I use starts with Kurzweil trombets (or maybe the trumpbones patch), and I added some saxes in the middle, with crossfades to slightly emphasize  the different instruments in different ranges, but still mainting a bit of a blend throughout the range.

Hardly alone Tom.  For my particular situation (much less demanding than some here) I enjoy the challenge of recreating these parts.  Years ago a quote that stuck with me from Keyboard mag (don't remember who the interview was with) and the one interviewed referred to himself as a 'guest orchestrator' when he played with different groups.  That appealed to me and I've always looked for creative ways to fill that role.  Great fun and very satisfying when it works out.

[Dave Bryce]

4 hours ago, Stokely said:

Well, I  use a lot of those other voices (and the synth capabilities)...I just stay away from the horns (mostly)

I also don't use the sequencer, wish that wasn't on there along with all the pesky buttons, but that's what a lot of people like!

 

dB

[JimboKeys]

The band i play second keyboard / utility musician in took a stab (no pun intended) at doing a couple Chicago tunes a while back.  I admit i had a blast working out the horn parts while the other keyboard player covered the keyboard parts.  Similarly for playing all the strings in a couple ELO tunes we tried.

 

-- Jimbo

[MathOfInsects]

Hate it. For that kind of gig, the money has to be unignorable. I only say yes maybe once every three or four years. And even then when it’s over I’m always like, “Eh, I’d rather just have stayed broke.” 

[JohnH]

On 8/10/2022 at 4:04 PM, nmchiledude said:

Hardly alone Tom.  For my particular situation (much less demanding than some here) I enjoy the challenge of recreating these parts.  Years ago a quote that stuck with me from Keyboard mag (don't remember who the interview was with) and the one interviewed referred to himself as a 'guest orchestrator' when he played with different groups.  That appealed to me and I've always looked for creative ways to fill that role.  Great fun and very satisfying when it works out.

 

I've completely forgotten that may be why I like doing it. In Music College we did arrangements on sheet music for horns. That was fun. I'm not using that when learning horn parts but it's in my background. Thanks for reminding me!

[obxa]

My usual answer is:" if you want horns,  hire a horn section".   At very least a Sax player.  You can actually learn a lot about phrasing playing with a real horn (or string) section. 

 

I'm ok doubling horn lines on organ, and synth horns can work on a few tunes, but all night, no.   I've done EWF stuff with small section and that works nice beefing up the real thing.   I absolutely draw the line on any gig that wants sax parts. That is pure cheese.  I shamefully still have a DX7 breath controller that pains me when I forget it's still in the back of my desk drawer.  

 

   It's weird,  I don't have as much problem doing string parts .  In the olides circuit it's usually expected..

  I do a fair amount of 2nd keyboard chair gigs where the MD (or artist) is the pianist and you're usually covering a lot of orch and incidental stuff.   Not my favorite thing to do, but helps pay the bills.    I've done strings only pit band gigs where they even sat me with the string section (who despised me being there LOL).  I kept telling the MD on that gig how ironic it was we were doing "West Side Story" - the string  people treated me like the opposing gang.   Money was admittingly great, but it was miserable and no fun at all- so declined next time it came around.   

 

At the end of the day, I think most of would rather just play Piano, Wurli and Organ. 

 

 

 

[D. Gauss]

ima just say this. i just got back from a street fair down the street. tons of people as we're directly in the shadows of NYC. they pay A LOT for the band every year. watching band tonight. "born to run" gets played with a note for note sax solo on a cheesy kronos keyboard sound. 

just no. help me.  shoot me. 

i'm sure it didn't matter to the band and probably not to the audience either ('cept me and the wife), but there are sooo many a-list horn players here you can get hire for cheap (i say many 'cause it's nyc... and sadly, i say cheap 'cause the music biz blows now and we all gotsta work).  If you really want it/need it, i say shell out for the guys/girls who can do it, and do it right.

[Baldwin Funster]

24 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

ima just say this. i just got back from a street fair down the street. tons of people as we're directly in the shadows of NYC. they pay A LOT for the band every year. watching band tonight. "born to run" gets played with a note for note sax solo on a cheesy kronos keyboard sound. 

just no. help me.  shoot me. 

i'm sure it didn't matter to the band and probably not to the audience either ('cept me and the wife), but there are sooo many a-list horn players here you can get hire for cheap (i say many 'cause it's nyc... and sadly, i say cheap 'cause the music biz blows now and we all gotsta work).  If you really want it/need it, i say shell out for the guys/girls who can do it, and do it right.

It's the note for note thing that makes me want to run out of the venue.

As a player I usually "paraphrase in the style of" unless it's more of a short melodic part.

As a listener, hearing some one labor through some long solo where it sounds like a chart instead of a fresh improv or at least from the heart, really is 45 seconds that seems like time spent on a metal bed in medieval times being ordered to recant. 

[stoken6]

8 hours ago, obxa said:

 I've done EWF stuff with small section and that works nice beefing up the real thing.   I absolutely draw the line on any gig that wants sax parts. That is pure cheese.

I think that's my position. I played for many years in a band with a talented sax player - I covered the trumpet/trombone lines alongside him. But sometimes (and this came up previously in the thread) I had to be "the two-handed piano player" - we covered Southside Johnny's "Better Days", and I explained to the BL that I needed both hands to do justice to the piano part. Sax player covered the horns by himself - it gave the song a bit of a E Street Band vibe, but that's cool.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[D. Gauss]

i say... just get horn players and let THEM do all the iconic note 4 note geetar solos like frank does here @6:25. 

cracks me up every time. the amount of time/work that went into this joke.

 

 

[jeffincltnc]

Maybe it's just me... I am in a new genre at the moment as the sole keyboardist in a 5-piece 80's New Wave band, and I haven't played any of these tunes before, especially at a level with weekly rehearsals and polish.

 

We close our first set with "Our House" by Madness and I am doing the horns and strings on a Nord Wave 2.  I think the song slams and it is sounding great in FOH.  4 vocalists, and I am kicking a lot of the signature bass notes on piano and using layers and splits up top with horns and strings.   There are several key changes in the chorus and outro.

 

It's a joy to be doing the horns on that tune.  This is a band that played over in-ear clicks and had backing tracks for so many of the 80's songs and I feel like I am taking them to the next level as an all-live band without backing tracks since I joined.

 

So, anyway... I will post a video here of us covering Madness after our next gig or start a new thread called "Keyboard Horns That Don't Suck".  :-)

[Tusker]

I have a confession. I enjoy playing "fake" instruments like horns and bells and percussion and so on. Because they are not fake after I play them. I make them real.

 

Seriously. It's not what you play but how you play it. In a Phil Collins tribute I sometimes had a horn player with whom to partner. I liked that! Sometimes I had to carry the horn parts all by myself. The horn articulations for rips, falls and shakes were triggered by a three button foot switch. Session Horns Pro was the instrument. Chris Heins might have been better, but I already had Session Horns pro. It sounded like the record but sloppier in a good way. Keyboard players can use glisses, grace notes and pitch bends to make things sloppy in a good way. A continuous pedal is good. A breath controller is gold.

 

I even covered Gerald Albright's saxophone solo spots using a VL (physically modeled) instrument. Nobody is going to confuse me with Gerald Albright, but the audience was treated to a virtual instrument playing real music with real intonations and articulations. Out of a desire for my own voice, I use syncoustics which are imaginary instruments. I might have used the "triple reed" model for that situation. It's an imaginary triple reed instrument which sounds as though a soprano sax and a shawm had a baby. (A saxophone is what happens when a clarinet and a brass instrument have a baby. Ask Adolphe Sax.)

 

The specific instrument didn't matter. It sounded like someone was trying to blow the roof down cause someone was. The music was real. The audience loved it. This experience didn't kill me. We had a good time. YMMV.

[Mark Zeger]

James Taylor’s horn section is Lou Marini & Walt Fowler. Pretty great with those 2 but Fowler does something VERY cool. He occasionally augments the horns with keyboard brass in his left hand. Sounds amazing! I’ve tried this at home but I can only do it if I transpose the keyboard to Bb.

[stoken6]

25 minutes ago, Mark Zeger said:

James Taylor’s horn section is Lou Marini & Walt Fowler. Pretty great with those 2 but Fowler does something VERY cool. He occasionally augments the horns with keyboard brass in his left hand. Sounds amazing! I’ve tried this at home but I can only do it if I transpose the keyboard to Bb.

 

I bet Fowler does exactly the same.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Adam Burgess]

On 8/11/2022 at 12:55 AM, mate stubb said:

The Joe Z clip illustrates an important point - add one measly real horn to a synth horn section and the ear locks into it.

I played some horn parts once with Culture Club with a real sax player and my Triton Extreme.
Very last minute gig… sight reading Tpt. hand in Bb, Tbn. in C… but, followed his breathing, and a good few thousand people thought it was ok 🙂

In my normal little gigs; I do a few things.

• to tracks I know the tempo of/have control over - I can always play the notes and put articulations MIDI switches on track. Playing the parts, I find fun.

ª play simple harmonies (no more than two notes - octs, 4th/5ths) totally live with a key-faded spilt Tbn., Saxes., Tpt. possibly with a 'section' patch layered?
 Can't articulate open 10ths/counter-point if I'm playing rhythm parts, really!

• just put the parts on track. (I have no qualms about things on track, so long as I'm not miming them 🙂 )

• play in unison/simple harmony with the sax player/singer - again - breathing with them is paramount. Even a trumpet patch that's more 'rounded' than my usual saxophonist's spitty 'rock' sound  - adds soooo much. 
(*Same works for musicals with one real violin above samples)

• guitar player gets the horn riffs, and, to keep room for vox/riffs I'll generally comp not much above middle-C territory on pianos (and opt. bring in pads/organ to fill out any space that seems a bit empty.) (* I'll also follow where the guitarist is playing, as he's interpreting horn parts. If he's an octave low, I'll adjust)

As a sort of aside, been playing around a lot this week with my Integra rack, and the SuperNatural stuff really does work live. Better options for recording/mocking up and realising parts - but, for live - the legatos/falls/spit/aftertouch for timbre changes is actually still very good IMO!

 

[Reezekeys]

For the laptoppers here - this is what I use to do "1 -finger" horn section stuff with AWB (I augment the two real sax players - nothing I play is by itself in the mix).

 

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/midichords-by-insert-piz-here

 

This is a very old and maybe even abandoned plugin (I just read somewhere that it doesn't function with M1 Macs). There's no manual, so you're on your own to figure things out but I can tell you this works incredibly well (which makes the somewhat steep learning curve worth it, imo). It's a midi plugin where you assign multiple notes to be triggered by a single note you play. Each note can be on  separate midi channel. There's also a "strum" feature, meant for simulating guitar strumming, which spreads the resulting notes over a programmable range of time - and this works great for doing horn sections, because having all notes of the ensemble sounding together at the exact same time, all the time, screams fake.

 

(Looks like the download is not on the page I linked to above. I did find it here: https://plugins4free.com/plugin/1642/)

 

[edit - the download contains a readme that does a good job of describing how to use this. It's been so long since I started using this - I guess I forgot there was this documentation!]

[cphollis]

I enjoy doing the occasional horn part on keys -- whether it's a horn sample, a B3, a gnarly synth pad, whatever.  Maybe it's the only time I can steal the focus away from the singers and lead guitarist .  

 

That being said, there are songs and genres that are horn-centric, and you can only fake it so much.  One band I was considering was playing NC Beach Music, and they were all horn-centric songs.  I asked him why he didn't go get a horn player or two? 

 

He told me that "keyboard players are cheaper".  Well OK then, best of luck to you!

[Mills Dude]

3 hours ago, Mark Zeger said:

James Taylor’s horn section is Lou Marini & Walt Fowler. Pretty great with those 2 but Fowler does something VERY cool. He occasionally augments the horns with keyboard brass in his left hand. Sounds amazing! I’ve tried this at home but I can only do it if I transpose the keyboard to Bb.

I knew a dude that did that, Frosty Lawson, sadly he passed away a few years ago.   He was a kicking keyboardist, brass player and vocalist who ran a wedding band orchestra.   He'd do it with trumpet.  Having that real brass in there, mostly at the top gave it more credibility.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Mills Dude said:

I knew a dude that did that, Frosty Lawson, sadly he passed away a few years ago.   He was a kicking keyboardist, brass player and vocalist who ran a wedding band orchestra.

 

He replaced me in that band! I never ran it though. Back then it was a husband and wife team that moved to Costa Rica; they still manage the band from there. I never did get to meet Frosty but I know he was a great player and well regarded by his peers.

 

Many years ago there was a keyboard & trumpet player in my area (Fairfield County CT) named Phil Orr that also played both instruments simultaneously.

[Mark Zeger]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

I bet Fowler does exactly the same.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Maybe/maybe not. I’ve seen trumpeter Nicholas Payton comp on Rhodes with the left hand, trumpet with the right. 
 

[stoken6]

41 minutes ago, Mark Zeger said:

I’ve seen trumpeter Nicholas Payton comp on Rhodes with the left hand, trumpet with the right. 

Crazy skills. That reminds me of the story of the guy who brought a US Hammond to the UK and of course it ran flat. He played it LH in a different key with his RH on piano.

 

(Am I remembering that right?)

 

Cheers, Mike.

[EricBarker]

6 hours ago, Mark Zeger said:

James Taylor’s horn section is Lou Marini & Walt Fowler. Pretty great with those 2 but Fowler does something VERY cool. He occasionally augments the horns with keyboard brass in his left hand. Sounds amazing! I’ve tried this at home but I can only do it if I transpose the keyboard to Bb.

 

I do exactly the same thing with my trumpet. But I went the other direction: I bought a C Trumpet for exactly this reason. Transpose the horn, not the keyboard! CONCERT PITCH 4EVER!!!

 

But yeah, I often play trumpet and keys at the same time, typically left-hand comping while I play horn with my right (I used to be able to play horn with my left after an injury, but I haven't done that for years). Holding a metal Bb Trumpet for hours in one hand is very tiring, and hard on the pinky (which you have to use the ring to prop it). My plastic horn is about 1/3 the weight, and much easier to double-fist keys/horn.

I thought I was the only Joe on Hawaii playing keys/trumpet at the same time. Until I went to a gig that opened with a guy playing piano-accordion/trumpet at once. Hella skills!

[Mighty Motif Max]

I'm in the camp of not minding playing orchestral sounds or horns as-needed. I'm not sure I could truly do justice to more complex horn arrangements if I had to play any other instrument parts, but if it's unison lines I'm perfectly happy to throw some horns in here and there. Same with strings and wind instruments. I'll also happily layer various guitar patches behind keys sounds if it's needed, or layer a bass further down. I think part of that is while I grew up learning piano (and accordion and organ), my home instrument wasn't an acoustic piano, but rather one of the at-the-time fancy Yamaha CVP Clavinova models (CVP-305), which had an abundance of various instrument sounds.

 

Things really took off in 2017 or so, when I moved to a new area and for the first time served as an auxillary/2nd keys player at church, rather than being the lead/only keyboardist. Sure, in my old role I did some occasional brass stabs and a decent amount of strings here and there, but as the 2nd keys guy, my job was to cover pretty much anything but keyboard sounds. I was basically the synth/orchestra/strings/brass/aux percussion/whatever player, which was really a challenge at first. Over time though I got more comfortable with it and figured out how to play those sounds more like they would be played on their respective instruments, rather than playing them like a piano player would. That helped the realism a lot.

 

These days I'm happy to play pretty much anything within reason (outside of reason would be, say, wanting a full piano part, left hand bass, a string line, and a brass counterpoint all concurrently). Could be world instruments, flutes, brass, strings, bells, pretty much anything. Do keep in mind that I wasn't happy with the brass presets on any of my boards, and so I'd end up layering and making custom patches that would sound a bit more convincing...octave layers, velocity-switched brass falls, and a crescendo envelope generally.

[Bobbo Fett]

Back in the late 70's I worked with a bass player who would slap the strings while he played a valve trombone. I would play keys with my left hand and trumpet with my right (2 different keys....this was before the era of the transpose button) for a 4 piece band we had a REALLY big sound! LOTS of fun.....

[Shamanzarek]

I remember seeing a lounge act in Oregon about 1971. When a brass part was needed the keyboard played a Lowrey organ with one hand and trumpet with the other. The drummer also played trumpet with one hand and could still do enough drums part to carry the song. This band was the New Dawn. They made a really terrible album, or so we thought at the time, and in the 90s an Italian label picked it up and put it out as great undiscovered garage rock.

[harmonizer]

I would not try to cover 25 or 6 to 4 without real horns. You CAN cover the parts with 2 horn players, depending on how versatile your brass player is.

I do add supplemental trombone sounds via a Roland synth fired by a PK5 MIDI footpedal controller (which you can't see in this video) for the first few measures of the bridge, and for the 5 bars at the end.

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

52 minutes ago, harmonizer said:

I would not try to cover 25 or 6 to 4 without real horns. You CAN cover the parts with 2 horn players, depending on how versatile your brass player is.

I do add supplemental trombone sounds via a Roland synth fired by a PK5 MIDI footpedal controller (which you can't see in this video) for the first few measures of the bridge, and for the 5 bars at the end.

 

 

With a little more swivel hip action that 'bone player could have Pankow worried about losing his gig.

[Alkeys]

Jeez it's absolutely crazy to me you're in a band that requires you to play horn parts. It's crazy this thread even exists. That is unfathomable to me. You should quit that band immediately.  It tells me that the other guys that are in your "band" don't really give a %^&^&*(* about you as a person or as a musician.  I only play music with guys I've known for 20+ years that treat me and my role as a KEYBOARD player not a horn player, and what I bring to the table with respect. None of them expect me to play horn parts nor have they ever asked me to play horn parts in any gig I've played with them-whether it was in a reggae setting, fusion jazz setting, prog setting or heavy metal setting.  The closest thing I've ever played to a part that is not a keyboard instrument is a string section and that has been as Mellotron strings (which technically is a keyboard instrument so that counts).  As a keyboard player you should only play keyboard sounds from keyboard instruments and that's it- that's means B3, pipe organ, harpsichord, CP70, MKS-20, Clav, Rhodes, Wurli, Piano, synths, Mellotron. That's it. But you should never play or be expected to play instruments like guitars, horns, flutes drums etc- non keyboard instruments nor should you ever entertain doing so and there should never be any part of you that thinks that playing other acoustic instruments from a keyboard is okay.  I would never play those sounds and I despise keyboard manufacturers that include those stupid sounds in their presets and keyboard players who think it is okay to do so.

 

If you are a keyboard player that plays non-keyboard instrument parts on your instrument and has agreed to do so, you're part of the problem- the players that have given keyboard players a bad name over the last 50 years.  That's where "cheesy keyboard players" association comes from-and I've been fighting it all my life to distance myself from those players. All those jackasses who played brass sounds on Roland D-50s etc.  I can't stand those guys as they've given us real players who play only keyboard instruments a bad name because it never sounds good or right to be playing horns, flutes, or guitars or drums or anything else from a keyboard that isn't a keyboard instrument.  Every time you play brass sounds on your keyboard you shit all over real players like Jan Hammer, Lyle Mays, Stu Goldberg, Bill Evans, Joe Zawinul, Rupert Greenall, Alan Pasqua, Keith Jarrett, Gary Husband, Steve Hunt, T Lavitz, Geoff Downes, Rick Wakeman, Greg Giuffria, Hannes Folberth, Tony MacAlpine, Kenny Kirkland, Benoit Widemann, Jens Johansson, Don Airey, Philippe Saisse, Wall Badarou, Richard Barbieri, Mark Kelly, Jon Lord, Vangelis, Tony Banks, Gerhard Fuhrs, Quennel Gaskin, Art Tatum, Richard Tee, Kit Watkins, Józef Skrzek, David Sancious, Manfred Mann, Jackie Mittoo...etc... I don't care if "your gig calls for it".  The "gig" needs to hire a horn section and if you agree to play horns from a keyboard well I feel sorry for you..... I would never be caught dead playing horn sounds from a keyboard nor would I be proud to hear that sound come out of my amps in front of a live crowd of people or in private. If horn sounds came out of my amps, I would hang my head in shame or rather be behind a curtain on the side of the stage, which is also where a keyboard player should not be.  For god sake! Get yourself together man! Have some dignity and respect for your honorable role as a keyboard player and quit that band and never entertain that horseshit again. Loius Vierne would never play horns from his keyboard manuals and never should you my friend!

 

 

[rickzjamm]

Horn parts are fun if the right sound is being used, for me the weapon of choice is the Korg Kronos. I detune the horns with slight reverb & "crunch"  added. But the horrible sound I avoid is solo violin...  

that being said the audience really doesn't know or care. But as keyboardists we do, such is our lot in life.    

[The Real MC]

9 hours ago, Alkeys said:

Jeez it's absolutely crazy to me you're in a band that requires you to play horn parts.

[...]

If you are a keyboard player that plays non-keyboard instrument parts on your instrument and has agreed to do so, you're part of the problem

 

How well do YOUR gigs pay?