Roland introduces Juno-X

[ElmerJFudd]

39 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

DeepMind 12 is less than 1/3 the price and is pure analog, while this isn’t even ACB (analog circuit behavior) but just the “mass-market” Zen-core digital engine. I’m not saying it looks like a bad instrument though. I just don’t see what it brings besides the name. 
 

P.S. I see it has multiple models, including a piano and XV, so probably a lot of PCM sounds. So, it’s more than a DeepMind. Although I don’t understand how it relates to its bigger (?) brother, the Jupiter X. 

Roland could have partnered with SE (as with the SE-02)  and done an analog Juno 106 for their 50th anniversary.  But it is very clear that Roland believes their success and investment in digital models is the current and future direction of the company and therefore a digital Juno 106 represents that.  
 

For poly analogue synths priced within reach of the masses, Behringer is the one to watch.  The DM12/6 is available now. Pro800, OBX, Pro16 are around the corner.  

[Bill H.]

It appears to be several inches longer than a Juno 60/106. Wish they hadn't done that. The display is centered this time. +1 for that decision. 

 

You also get the more punchy JUNO-60, a PCM-based XV-5080 section, pianos from the RD series and a vocoder all accessible from the front panel. But those are just the crowd-pleasers because the JUNO-X has its own thing going on and then opens it all up to the Roland Cloud Model Expansions.

The JUNO-X is a new synth engine with a Super Saw waveform and enables features such as velocity sensitivity, pitch envelope control and more.

 

So... is this essentially a Jupiter X/Xm in a different package? A more practical package for gigging perhaps? 

[nadroj]

I don’t get it. If it’s purely ZEN core stuff all they’ve done is throw their current VSTs in a box with the Juno name and design and are charging 2 grand for it??? 

[Adan]

If the Fantom 06 is selling for $1500, it's easy to see the Juno X at $2000 on a relative scale.  Maybe a nicer key action, metal body, aftertouch, and internal power supply don't matter that much to you, in which case get the Fantom.

 

Again, I don't think I'll be getting this myself, but I think it's a beautiful keyboard and I'm all for that.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Let’s hope they have more usable aftertouch than the Fantom 6/7. That is pretty much useless (brand new it’s about as good as the AT on my JV-1000 with a worn out aftertouch strip).

[GovernorSilver]

 

[GovernorSilver]

It's an interesting option for a stage keyboard as it has RD Piano and XV-5080 Models to go with the Juno ones.    I'd have fun just looking at confused faces as I jam on an RD Piano or XV-5080 presets, because from a distance it does not look like it should have those sounds.

[dalpozlead]

 

 

06:50 "... you can wireless load sounds.... you just need to reconect every 30 days to authorize it...."

 

I understand if you own an additional expansion as a "lifetime key"  don't need to reconect every 30 days, right?

[MathOfInsects]

Roland produces more sequels than Fast & Furious. 

[kaptainkeys]

7 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Roland produces more sequels than Fast & Furious. 

At least Roland's sequels don't cost the same as the previous 7.

[ElmerJFudd]

A quote from another forum.

 

From CDM, 

“Here’s where we get into some Roland logic. Roland has two technologies now, one called Analog Circuit Behavior (ACB) and another is now called Analog Behavior Modeling (ABM). The name ABM is newer, but the actual tech for ABM appears to be older. But there’s a hedge here – ACB does more to actually emulate the way physical circuits behave. This isn’t only significant to remakes; it can also be employed in new instruments, as was done on the SYSTEM-1 and SYSTEM-8. And it brings Roland’s sound engines beneath the hood closer in line with recent developments in modeling filters and other features now found in current-generation desktop software instruments, software modular, and even some digital hardware modules.

Roland seems to have backpedaled on their more computationally expensive and innovative ACB, and the superior sound of the Boutique and AIRA products, and gone back to just cramming gear with a bunch of PCM and previous generation virtual analog. 

Now to be fair, they reveal why – customers want more polyphony and more features. And sure enough, the response to the new FANTOM synths has been positive.”

CEO of Roland, Jun-ichi Miki

We are very aware of the very strong passion that synth fans have for the JUPITER-8, and some continue to wait for us to introduce a true analog version. This is something we do not plan to do. Our founder Mr. Kakehashi always said, “Never chase a ghost”, and I really understand his meaning. “Chasing the ghost” of the original JUPITER-8 or TR-808 does not make sense as we will never catch them, and this effort would not align with our vision for the future… 

 

…We invested a huge amount of time and money to develop a new system-on-a-chip called BMC, which stands for Behavior Modeling Core. Proprietary to Roland, BMC contains a large array of DSP and CPU core blocks plus hardware logic; it is incredibly powerful.

 

ZEN-Core is an expandable and customizable synthesizer engine running on BMC, and is the heart of the new JUPITER, FANTOM, and GROOVEBOX synth instruments. The combination of BMC and ZEN-Core are like a highly tuned F1 racing engine for sound synthesis. 

At the base level, ZEN-Core integrates next-generation PCM and Virtual Analog, with advanced features such as new Virtual Analog oscillators, precisely modeled filters, ultra-fast and smooth envelopes and LFOs, high-resolution parameters, and expandability. The JUPITER-X Series uses one of the first product-specific expansions to the base engine, Analog Behavior Modeling or ABM, which is the technology behind the Model Bank feature. For your interest, the second product-specific expansion to ZEN-Core is V-Piano on the new FANTOM synths.”

 

So the crux of this is, Roland isn't interested in re-issues of their analogue classics.  Their best analogue modeling engine ( found in the System-8 ) is where you'll get their ACB 106 engine with limited polyphony.  Some feel strongly that this Juno-X (with the right layout and aesthetics of the classic 106) should have the ACB 106 engine in it.  However, Roland chose to use the "lesser" ABM 106 engine for higher polyphony and a wider variety of sounds and features via Zencore.  If I had to guess, Roland simply sells a lot more Fantoms than they do System-8s.  

 

[TomKittel]

3 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

However, Roland chose to use the "lesser" ABM 106 engine for higher polyphony and a wider variety of sounds and features via Zencore.  If I had to guess, Roland simply sells a lot more Fantoms than they do System-8s.  

 

 

Juno X: superior appearance, lesser VA

 

System 8: superior VA, lesser appearance

 

The System 8 engine repackaged in Juno 106 or Juno 60 design would have caught my interest.

 

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

I really don't get the appeal (but I also don't care for the aesthetics of the original 106). More hands-on I guess, but when I listened to the demo all I heard were sounds I could get out of the Fantom engines. So now we have the Fantom, Fantom-0, Jupiter X/Xm, Juno X, RD-88, MC boxes, AX-Edge, Aerophones, and the Verselab thing, all basically with the same underlying tech as the primary sound source (some have more specialized additions).

[zephonic]

While the criticisms are valid, another way to look at it is: all the same Roland goodness, with aftertouch, without the wall-wart (and XLR outs/speakers for who needs them).

 

The Fantom-07 makes more sense for cover band gigs, but this appeals more to the artist in me.

[CyberGene]

Am I the only one who is bothered by all the vintage or modern synths that have so many real pots and sliders and when you load a patch they are all over the place and you don’t see the actual patch? I owned a Peak for a while and it sounded great but comparing it to my Hydrasynth it was just too awkward to program due to the real pots and sliders not representing their actual position. Having endless encoders aid LED rings and screens next to them is so much better. And there are still a few real trimpots for the filter section, so that you can tweak them nicely (but those are also doubled in the encoder section for the filter module). 

[Tom Williams]

19 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

And yes, aftertouch!

Huh.  I thought you said it was made by Roland.  🙂

[TomKittel]

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

And yes, aftertouch!

 

If it’s the same heavy Roland interpretation of aftertouch as in the Fantom or in the A800 controller, it’s quite useless. 

[kaptainkeys]

5 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I really don't get the appeal (but I also don't care for the aesthetics of the original 106). More hands-on I guess, but when I listened to the demo all I heard were sounds I could get out of the Fantom engines. So now we have the Fantom, Fantom-0, Jupiter X/Xm, Juno X, RD-88, MC boxes, AX-Edge, Aerophones, and the Verselab thing, all basically with the same underlying tech as the primary sound source (some have more specialized additions).

You could add the System 8 to that list too...

[Al Coda]

What´s the fuss about the (vintage) Roland Juno synths at all ???

 

Already in the past these were shitty DCO synths, at least for me,- and what I really bought was a MKS80 (Jupiter 6 type) rackmodule because it offered tight MIDI and a (detachable) programmer module.

It was a rev4 w/ the Jupiter-8 filter chip, CEM VCOs and "white dot" (Roland selected) 3360 VCAs.

This thing replaced my Prophet-5 and I was happy it did so well.

I appreciated it recieved "MIDI tune request" commands from the Yammi KX88 I used at that time.

 

A.C.

 

[Adan]

I would admit that, for me at least, there's a lot of nostalgia associated with the Roland DCO synths, just because I had one and loved it and associate it with cool gigs, fast times, and loose women.  I may be exaggerating the loose women part, but hey, it's called artistic license!

 

I'm a big fan of a group called The Comet is Coming, a british trio featuring a keys player who uses two Roland DCO synths.  Dude could play any synth, but he chooses these and part of the reason he gives is that the simplicity and the limitations are artistically liberating.  Of course, the irony with the Roland replicas is that they don't have those same limitations, they just are dressed up that way.

 

On another topic, maybe Roland has become the Bucca di Beppo of keyboard manufacturers -- a big menu with lots of choices, all of which are basically the same ingredients in different shapes and sizes.  But is Roland categorically different in that way than Yamaha, Korg, or Kurzweil?  I think the same-stuff-in-different-packages observation is pretty valid, but I don't know if it's fair to single out Roland.

[kaptainkeys]

Kinda reminds me of GM in the 90s, to be honest.  They literally sold the same car under 5 different brand names with a slightly different fascia.

[brenner13]

David from Roland presented the sweetest vocoder demo I’ve ever heard. Wow! 11:15.

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, TomKittel said:

 

Juno X: superior appearance, lesser VA

 

System 8: superior VA, lesser appearance

 

The System 8 engine repackaged in Juno 106 or Juno 60 design would have caught my interest.

 

 

 

I actually prefer the appearance of the System 8. Functionally, it's got about twice as many knobs and sliders, you can manipulate more stuff at once without switching a single set of controls among multiple functions. Aesthetically, to me, that "classic" Juno look is kinda cheesy, with little appeal except nostalgia. To me, that design had a low budget look the first time, and it has a low budget look today. I would describe it as "quaint." I wonder if the look's biggest appeal may be to those who "came of age" in the 80s. As someone who considers those folks to be young whipper snappers, to me, this is a toy-like design that pales next to the solid industrial look of earlier (and, okay, often pricier) gear. 

 

7 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

So now we have the Fantom, Fantom-0, Jupiter X/Xm, Juno X, RD-88, MC boxes, AX-Edge, Aerophones, and the Verselab thing, all basically with the same underlying tech as the primary sound source (some have more specialized additions).

 

Yes, they are building lots of gear around ZEN-Core. But 90% of Yamaha is AWM2. Korg is mostly split between versions of EDS on one hand, and Kronos-derived engines on the other. One thing I'll say for ZEN-Core is that I think it's cool that they let you load so much of the same stuff into all these models. Those Yamahas and Korgs rarely let you load sounds designed for one into another, even if the boards are derived from the same underlying engine.

 

 

7 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Am I the only one who is bothered by all the vintage or modern synths that have so many real pots and sliders and when you load a patch they are all over the place and you don’t see the actual patch? I owned a Peak for a while and it sounded great but comparing it to my Hydrasynth it was just too awkward to program due to the real pots and sliders not representing their actual position. Having endless encoders aid LED rings and screens next to them is so much better. 

 

This is why I still consider the Nord Lead 3 one of the best synths ever. And even better than screens to tell you what the knobs are doing, it has enough knobs to dedicate one to each function.

 

1 hour ago, GotKeys said:

You could add the System 8 to that list too...

 

Not ZEN-Core... though there is some overlap between its plug-outs and some of the cloud stuff (even though that particular cloud stuff does not go into any of the ZEN-Core boards).

[CyberGene]

6 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

This is why I still consider the Nord Lead 3 one of the best synths ever. And even better than screens to tell you what the knobs are doing, it has enough knobs to dedicate one to each function.

Indeed, it's a shame they have abandoned the idea. And it's a shame nobody else makes similar stuff. Wondering why that is though.

[kaptainkeys]

16 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Not ZEN-Core... though there is some overlap between its plug-outs and some of the cloud stuff (even though that particular cloud stuff does not go into any of the ZEN-Core boards).

That is what I meant, all those boards have overlap in their sound creation engines.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Al Coda said:

What´s the fuss about the (vintage) Roland Juno synths at all ???

 

Already in the past these were shitty DCO synths, at least for me,- and what I really bought was a MKS80 (Jupiter 6 type) rackmodule because it offered tight MIDI and a (detachable) programmer module.

It was a rev4 w/ the Jupiter-8 filter chip, CEM VCOs and "white dot" (Roland selected) 3360 VCAs.

This thing replaced my Prophet-5 and I was happy it did so well.

I appreciated it recieved "MIDI tune request" commands from the Yammi KX88 I used at that time.

 

A.C.

 

It’s nostalgia for the tracks it was used on. Lots of styles, but largely in dance, pop, club, house, electronic music where its reverence is greatest with others like the Jupiter-8.  Studio gear where you have all the time in the world to fiddle and tweak and create/recreate timbres and moods and vibes.  
 

Entirely impractical for most of KC where we spend most of our time talking about the best all round board that can cover everything we need for a varied set list.  Or the best digital piano, or best clone wheel of the season.  Or screw them all, I can do better with a MacBook Pro and MainStage. 

[AnotherScott]

28 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Indeed, it's a shame they have abandoned the idea. And it's a shame nobody else makes similar stuff. Wondering why that is though.

$$$

[Charleston]

2 hours ago, GotKeys said:

You could add the System 8 to that list too...

System 8 has the great-sounding, superior ACB, .....not the weak, uninspiring zencore in the others.

[Doerfler]

 

[ProfD]

Absolutely brilliant marketing from the folks at Roland. 

 

Between the nostalgic and hipster crowds, Roland knows how much used Junos are selling for nowadays. 

 

As mentioned above, instead of "chasing ghosts", it's better for Roland to repackage their sounds in a retro-looking box. 

 

All sonic bases covered between the boutiques and Fantom 0/0X, Jupiter X/Xm and now Juno X.

 

Affordable Roland sounds at every price point without the maintenance of old hardware.

 

Thankfully, I'm not a fan of the Roland sound so I won't be copping any version of their fast and furious sequels.😁😎