Roland introduces Juno-X

[zephonic]

23 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

 

You really need to get over your fear of the "plastic" on many of these boards.    All of my gigging boards except the Nautilus have been or are "plastic."   

Thru all my gigs and travels with them, I've had not one issue to to the construction.

 

 

I don't hate the plastic. Yes, it feels cheap, but in my experience it holds up well. Downside of the low weight is that keyboards don't sit as solidly on the stand. YMMV, but the it's not that uncommon for me to inadvertently push the Krome off balance when playing. Occasionally happens with the MODX8, too.

The cheap feel is more in the action. An all plastic enclosure with an excellent action would probably feel a lot better.

 

 

4 hours ago, konaboy said:

kayboard is the same as the new fantom-0 series, albeit with aftertouch (don't think the 0 has that).

 

I've had the Fantom-07 here for two days now, and am not thrilled by the feel of the keys. It's just okay, nothing more.

 

[Stokely]

I went to my buddy's house to check out his Fantom 07.  I thought it was a bit nicer in build, due to choices in design more than materials, than my MODX.  The keys were a tad more to my taste but I can see what Scott was saying about pushback.   It has a line lump instead of a true wall wart, which I prefer.

Apparently even the big Fantoms won't carry audio over usb from an ipad?  That gives a massive check in the MODX column for me.  Or did they add this capability after launch?   The other problem in that regard for me is that there are so many controls--including a lot of unwanted sequencer controls--that I'd have no open spot for my ipad   I do like the sliders and other controls.

I thought the organ sounded good, pretty much like the VR700 I owned.

If I didn't have the MODX I'd be getting this pretty sure despite my "whining" over power supplies and build quality.  I think it would be a lateral move though, especially since I've been having some success making some acceptable "analog" patches lately on my MODX (I do think my Kurzweil's synth engine sounds a bit better for vintage analog, but I'm still pretty confused by VAST.)   If I was doing more 80s analog synth songs for example then the scales would tilt a bit away from the MODX toward this, but I use WAY more b-3x organ from the MODX than any other type of patch on it.

[TommyRude]

44 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Downside of the low weight is that keyboards don't sit as solidly on the stand. YMMV, but the it's not that uncommon for me to inadvertently push the Krome off balance when playing.

 

A workaround is to have foam strips (like used for windows) on the stand, helps to hold the board in place and make it feel more solid.  Of course, the stand itself needs to be solid!

[conundrum]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

or people may accept it the same way they accept that, when you sell your iPad or laptop, you're not generally allowed to give all the paid-for software on it to the new owner.

I don’t agree that’s a good analogy.

 

Many soft synths do offer passing the licence on to another, with varying degrees of restrictions. Roland is on the extreme end here.

 

Add to that the “phone home” requirement, even if you’ve bought a lifetime key. I don’t know if that part extends to loading it on the Jup or Juno X, but it does if it’s being used on a computer.

[Stokely]

14 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

 

A workaround is to have foam strips (like used for windows) on the stand, helps to hold the board in place and make it feel more solid.  Of course, the stand itself needs to be solid!

Foam, or cork.  I have some cork strips I've used on various stands and I swear they grip so well that I could almost tip the stand over before the keyboard would slide.   I mainly needed it with my Onstage Z, keyboards would zip right across either tier.

That buddy of mine with the Fantom 07 has a Spider pro stand, as do I with my MODX.  In both cases that stand grips extremely well despite the very low weight of those keyboards.  I don't have it in front of me but I believe it uses rubber tops for the arms.

[TomKittel]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

or people may accept it the same way they accept that, when you sell your iPad or laptop, you're not generally allowed to give all the paid-for software on it to the new owner.

 

That's not a fair comparison. I would rather compare model expansions with formerly available SRX boards. Hard to imagine that you would be forced to keep your SRX boards forever and take them with you to the grave one day. It would be very easy to prevent abuse if Roland wanted to. See here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/reselling-a-transferred-license-arturia.111653/

 

or here: https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/210288845-Buying-or-Selling-a-Native-Instruments-Product-Second-Hand

But Roland sees no need to offer a license transfer process if the unsuspecting user is happy without it. I am even more surprised that some people defend this ill-conceived Roland policy.

[AnotherScott]

Conundrum and Tom, I wasn't commenting on the policy being good or bad, but just responding to the idea that people should find this as surprising and as unacceptable as if they had to remove the leather steering wheel option from a car in order to sell it. It's not so uncommon if you look at it as software. You pay $100 or whatever for B3X on your iPad, you sell your iPad... neither you nor the buyer expects B-3X to come with it. You have the Adobe suite on your laptop, you sell your laptop, nobody expects the Adobe suite ownership to go with it. My point is simply that the idea of software being only licensed to a particular user is not inherently shocking or unprecedented.

[Bill H.]

18 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

At $2k if it doesn’t have a proper Roland high end semi weight synth action on it, 🙄

 

 

 

On an under $1500 FA-06 (reportedly the same action) yeah I think it's appropriate. But once we cross two grand, I'd like something more upscale. But I'm probably just trying to convince myself to get the Jupiter X.

 

It's crazy... I'm finding myself going through the same Juno vs. Jupiter debate I went through 40 years ago. 

[Bill H.]

2 hours ago, zephonic said:

 

I've had the Fantom-07 here for two days now, and am not thrilled by the feel of the keys. It's just okay, nothing more.

 

 

I appreciate your thoughts. It may be helpful when it comes to how I'll take to the new Juno. 

[TomKittel]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

You pay $100 or whatever for B3X on your iPad, you sell your iPad... neither you nor the buyer expects B-3X to come with it. You have the Adobe suite on your laptop, you sell your laptop, nobody expects the Adobe suite ownership to go with it.

 
Wait a minute, if you want to sell the B3X or the Adobe Suite along with your hardware, you can:

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/faq/index.php?id=44&bu=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWttdWx0aW1lZGlhLmNvbS9mYXEvaW5kZXgucGhwP3NlYXJjaD1saWNlbnNlJTIwdHJhbnNmZXI=

https://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/transfer-product-license.html

 

With Roland you can't sell anything. They don't even allow you to de-activate hardware like the WC1 wireless stick in order to sell it. This is against most software business practices I came across so far. Most people are not aware of that when they spend their money in Roland Cloud.

[marczellm]

What surprises me the most is that the specs for the Juno-X are exactly the same as on the Jupiter-X. I would have expected more limitations, but this is literally the same synth in a different box.

  

17 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I hadn't realized, it looks like King Korg is discontinued. That was the only lower-priced board I could think of with quality VA and a selection of basic b&b rompler sounds... but even then, it wasn't nearly as knobby as the Juno-X, and it's rompler sounds were not nearly as extensive. (Still a nice board, though.)

Just bought one used! Now I need to figure out what to do with it...

7 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Reminds me of the sacrilege fans had when Roland used the Juno name on ROMplers like the G, Di, and Stage. 

For me the JUNO-G is a keeper! Neither of its successors (the Gi, the DS, the FA and now the Fantom-0) yet managed to convince me to switch. It's not that they haven't improved, but the new features I don't have much use for.

[conundrum]

…

[TomKittel]

 

28 minutes ago, marczellm said:

For me the JUNO-G is a keeper! Neither of its successors (the Gi, the DS, the FA and now the Fantom-0) yet managed to convince me to switch. It's not that they haven't improved, but the new features I don't have much use for.

 
Same here. My JUNO Stage is a keeper too. It has not the slightest thing in common with any vintage JUNO except for the pitchbend lever. But it's a extremely versatile board with a great light weighted 76 keybed. And if I want to get rid of the SRX ultimate keys expansion board in it, I can sell it at double the price I paid for without Roland can stop me... 😜

[AnotherScott]

29 minutes ago, TomKittel said:

 
Wait a minute, if you want to sell the B3X or the Adobe Suite along with your hardware, you can:

 

 

I don't think B3X on an iPad (the example I gave) is transferable... I don't think anything on iOS is.

 

But you got me on Adobe! Still, some software is, and some software is not. It may factor into whether someone chooses to buy a piece of software or not, but people are not thrown by the concept.

[TomKittel]

39 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I don't think B3X on an iPad (the example I gave) is transferable... I don't think anything on iOS is.

 

But you got me on Adobe! Still, some software is, and some software is not. It may factor into whether someone chooses to buy a piece of software or not, but people are not thrown by the concept.

 

Let's agree on most music software is, very few are not. BTW where is the logical difference between software baked in a chip (like SRX boards) and software loaded into non-volatile memory (like model expansions)? If you buy the former, you own it. If you buy the latter, you are generously allowed to use it without ever owning it... maybe I'm too old for such nonsense.

[Art-0252]

21 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

At $2k if it doesn’t have a proper Roland high end semi weight synth action on it, 🙄

 

 

This is what turned me off the most! I thought it would at least have that incredible buttery smooth synth action the Jupiter X has!

[AnotherScott]

59 minutes ago, TomKittel said:

BTW where is the logical difference between software baked in a chip (like SRX boards) and software loaded into non-volatile memory (like model expansions)? If you buy the former, you own it. If you buy the latter, you are generously allowed to use it without ever owning it... 

 

Bingo. :-)

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, Art-0252 said:

This is what turned me off the most! I thought it would at least have that incredible buttery smooth synth action the Jupiter X has!

They, Roland, made some unpopular decisions on what to leave out of the Jupiter-50 in relation to the Jupiter-80 as well.  It made the Jupiter-50 a poor seller for them. 
 

I don’t know anymore what price point guarantees a good action any longer. The Roland XP-80 had a very nice semi weight synth action @ $2,595 in 1996.  The VR-700 as well in 2010 at $2,299.99.  2011 the Jupiter-80 at $3499.  

[AUSSIEKEYS]

5 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 The Roland XP-80 had a very nice semi weight synth action @ $2,595 in 1996. 

 

That... in time floods out red goo from its keys and allows the key weights to drop out if not suspended unceremoniously from the end of a key.

 

I have two. One hardly used (still in its box) and one thats had a gigging life with a friend of mine. Both red goed and dozens of weights now in a bag. Not sure if any are missing when i finally do get around to pulling them apart. Hers will offer up weights to the mint one.

 

I bought the boxed one to restore for myself. Then when my friend heard i had one she offered me her gigging board as it was too expensive to pay a tech to clean out the goo and reglue and she simply replaced it with an 88 privia.

 

She was gigging with the XP80  constantly till the weights simply dropped out on her.

 

If i was to pick a Roland semi weighted board for a good feel it would be the A30 controller. I believe no red glue used. I liked its feel a lot.

[marczellm]

6 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

They, Roland, made some unpopular decisions on what to leave out of the Jupiter-50 in relation to the Jupiter-80 as well.  It made the Jupiter-50 a poor seller for them. 

Just for curiosity, what were those decisions?

[stoken6]

On 4/28/2022 at 1:17 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

At $2k if it doesn’t have a proper Roland high end semi weight synth action on it, 🙄

 

 

You're kidding me? Roland do the right thing with aftertouch, power supply and build quality (and charge $2k for it), but fit it with a crappy action?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, marczellm said:

Just for curiosity, what were those decisions?

history repeating itself 
 

High price at Release $2k

Plastic build

Wall wart 

No aftertouch 

Weird/Buggy unison mode 

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-jupiter-50
 

Later I remember a rebate and eventually a price drop.   $800-1300 on Reverb.  

[AnotherScott]

23 hours ago, TomKittel said:

This is exactly what Roland is doing with it's license policy for model expansions. You are not allowed to transfer the expansions to the buyer if you sell the instrument. 

Actually, do we yet know which (if any) expansions for Juno-X are paid-for upgrades to begin with? It might be moot!

 

Though, yes, it is an issue for the Fantom-0. And tangentially to that, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to add a $399 JX-08 Boutique to the Fantom-0 than to pay $150 for the JP-8X expansion. But that's probably something to talk about in the Fantom-0 thread rather than here.

 

13 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

They, Roland, made some unpopular decisions on what to leave out of the Jupiter-50 in relation to the Jupiter-80 as well.  It made the Jupiter-50 a poor seller for them. 

 

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

history repeating itself 
 

High price at Release $2k

Plastic build

Wall wart 

No aftertouch 

Weird/Buggy unison mode 

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-jupiter-50
 

 

The Juno-X does not have plastic build or wall wart, though.

 

To me, the biggest issue with the Jupiter 50--AND the 80---was that they only had VA Synth and SuperNATURAL Acoustic. That is, if you needed an acoustic sound, and it did not exist as a SuperNATURAL Acoustic instrument, these Jupiters couldn't do it. This made them not so well suited to be someone's only gigging board, if you were the typical player who needs access to a wide variety of typical sounds. For example, if you wanted a "real" (not "synthy") choir sound or electric guitar sound , you really couldn't get it on these keyboards. They solved this on the Integra by, not just having more SuperNATURAL Acoustic instruments, but also having the XV-5080 sound set available, which provided a "backup set" of basically any typically sampled instrument sound you might want. But those Jupiters had sonic gaps where you might not have expected them.

 

And yes, lack of aftertouch on the 50 was unfortunate if not unexpected; and on the 80, unexpectedly, while it had AT, you had no flexibility in what you could do with it, and it didn't necessarily do what you want. IIRC, on acoustic instruments, it could open the filter (brighten the sound) but that's ALL it could do, you couldn't use it to introduce vibrato, that still required taking your other hand off the keys and using the mod lever.

 

Another issue with the Jupiter 50 to me was that the interface could be surprisingly awkward. Patch selection for the different sections looked simpler than it actually was, things didn't always work exactly as you might have at first expected. Also, the solo section at the top of the board would seem to be the kind of thing that would lend itself to lead breaks, but IIRC that section had no independent effects, and lead breaks are exactly where you're often most likely to need effects! Also, once you hit the button to bring in your lead sound up top, there was no easy way to switch it back out, which gets back to patch selection for the sections not being as direct as it looked.

 

It was still a cool board... lots of great sounds and a nice action in a wonderfully lightweight board. It just wasn't quite enough of anything to likely be someone's first choice for anything... not knobby enough to be someone's first choice for VA synth, not versatile enough in sound set to be someone's first choice for rompler, not direct enough in interface to be the first choice for someone willing to trade-off versatility to get simplicity (i.e. the Nord/SV1 kind of buyer). I still like the board, but from a marketing perspective, there was no one area where you could easily say, ah yes, THIS is the best board for THAT. I guess this would be a candidate for "most disappointing keyboard you ever bought" thread, though still far from useless. ;-)

[ElmerJFudd]

4 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Actually, do we yet know which (if any) expansions for Juno-X are paid-for upgrades to begin with? It might be moot!

 

Though, yes, it is an issue for the Fantom-0. And tangentially to that, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to add a $399 JX-08 Boutique to the Fantom-0 than to pay $150 for the JP-8X expansion. But that's probably something to talk about in the Fantom-0 thread rather than here.

 

 

 

The Juno-X does not have plastic build or wall wart, though.

 

To me, the biggest issue with the Jupiter 50--AND the 80---was that they only had VA Synth and SuperNATURAL Acoustic. That is, if you needed an acoustic sound, and it did not exist as a SuperNATURAL Acoustic instrument, these Jupiters couldn't do it. This made them not so well suited to be someone's only gigging board, if you were the typical player who needs access to a wide variety of typical sounds. For example, if you wanted a "real" (not "synthy") choir sound or electric guitar sound , you really couldn't get it on these keyboards. They solved this on the Integra by, not just having more SuperNATURAL Acoustic instruments, but also having the XV-5080 sound set available, which provided a "backup set" of basically any typically sampled instrument sound you might want. But those Jupiters had sonic gaps where you might not have expected them.

 

And yes, lack of aftertouch on the 50 was unfortunate if not unexpected; and on the 80, unexpectedly, while it had AT, you had no flexibility in what you could do with it, and it didn't necessarily do what you want. IIRC, on acoustic instruments, it could open the filter (brighten the sound) but that's ALL it could do, you couldn't use it to introduce vibrato, that still required taking your other hand off the keys and using the mod lever.

 

Another issue with the Jupiter 50 to me was that the interface could be surprisingly awkward. Patch selection for the different sections looked simpler than it actually was, things didn't always work exactly as you might have at first expected. Also, the solo section at the top of the board would seem to be the kind of thing that would lend itself to lead breaks, but IIRC that section had no independent effects, and lead breaks are exactly where you're often most likely to need effects! Also, once you hit the button to bring in your lead sound up top, there was no easy way to switch it back out, which gets back to patch selection for the sections not being as direct as it looked.

 

It was still a cool board... lots of great sounds and a nice action in a wonderfully lightweight board. It just wasn't quite enough of anything to likely be someone's first choice for anything... not knobby enough to be someone's first choice for VA synth, not versatile enough in sound set to be someone's first choice for rompler, not direct enough in interface to be the first choice for someone willing to trade-off versatility to get simplicity (i.e. the Nord/SV1 kind of buyer). I still like the board, but from a marketing perspective, there was no one area where you could easily say, ah yes, THIS is the best board for THAT. I guess this would be a candidate for "most disappointing keyboard you ever bought" thread, though still far from useless. 😉

Oh, I didn’t mean to say they’ve made the same choices, just saying that there will always be detractors with regard to their “B Side” versions. 
 

I think, and you’ve noted, that Roland learned something from the Jupiter-50’s reception.  Build and inclusion of aftertouch was wise.  Personally, plastic build with better action would have resonated (pun intended) with me. 

[CEB]

Juno X misses the mark in a side by side comparison with the Juno 106.  The Juno-X doesn't have enough hiss when you turn on the chorus. Ha!

[konaboy]

5 hours ago, CEB said:

Juno X misses the mark in a side by side comparison with the Juno 106.  The Juno-X doesn't have enough hiss when you turn on the chorus. Ha!

😛 in fact there's a setting to dial in the desired amount of hiss... if that's what you want

[jeffincltnc]

I'm not clear on what they keybed is on the new Juno X.  I was talking to Ben Allen who just ordered one and he said it's the same (better) keybed as the Jupiter X, not the cheaper Fantom-0 keybeds.   Which is correct?

[Moonglow]

23 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

It was still a cool board... lots of great sounds and a nice action in a wonderfully lightweight board. It just wasn't quite enough of anything to likely be someone's first choice for anything...

Overall, I tend to agree with this, but an excellent complimentary board (e.g., used with a rompler that has decent controller functions), especially if you are a fan of the Supernatural engines. 

[Moonglow]

On 4/26/2022 at 7:20 PM, GovernorSilver said:

 

I can’t believe the first sound featured in this video (approx. 1:22) was that synth ep + pad program. Sounds like an incredibly low-level synth. There were other sounds in the video I liked a lot better, but to lead-off with that thing? I’m just not digging this concept, it seems they are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. It does look cool. I’m also disappointed that the ACB technology was not employed, so if someone were mostly interested in the classic 106 programs, there are sonically better options available. Sorry for bringing the negative energy. I didn’t like the original 106 when it came out either, but grew to like it (and even own one). Perhaps the same pattern will emerge with this board.😄

[konaboy]

4 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

I'm not clear on what they keybed is on the new Juno X.  I was talking to Ben Allen who just ordered one and he said it's the same (better) keybed as the Jupiter X, not the cheaper Fantom-0 keybeds.   Which is correct?

roland reps on the demo vids have stated it's based on the f-0 keybed. so a downgrade from the top of the range fantom and jupiter.