News from Roland: Fantom 06/07/08

[MathOfInsects]

Fantom X has always been on my radar. But...no DBeam, right?? That's like 40% of the value-add in Roland for me, and I'm barely kidding. I use it all the time. The perfect board, like the perfect stand, will never be made. 

[ProfD]

Good discussion here.

 

Bottom line is...manufacturers are providing musicians with gig-ready gear at affordable price points. Compromises have to be made in order to get there.

 

Yet, we live in the best or times when a KB player can get a 20 lb box containing every sound they could need/want in order to satisfy their gig requirements. Roland has been consistent in that regard. 😎

[AnotherScott]

Really, can anyone make heads or tails out of this diagram in the manual? Sheesh. They thought this image was going to make the text description easier to follow...

 

[Sean M. H.]

34 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Really, can anyone make heads or tails out of this diagram in the manual? Sheesh. They thought this image was going to make the text description easier to follow...

 

 

Yeah I saw this picture in the manual, and immediately had flashbacks to math classes that I do NOT wish to ever revisit!  That image was definitely made by an engineer or someone completely out of touch with what the end-user is looking for in a user manual graphic....yikes 

[miden]

7 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

 

Yeah I saw this picture in the manual, and immediately had flashbacks to math classes that I do NOT wish to ever revisit!  That image was definitely made by an engineer or someone completely out of touch with what the end-user is looking for in a user manual graphic....yikes 

 

Or a traffic systems analyst

[Aynsley Green]

5 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Really, can anyone make heads or tails out of this diagram in the manual? Sheesh. They thought this image was going to make the text description easier to follow...

 

Classic Roland manual. The System 8 manual was useless too - there was more than met the eye with that board, which maybe explains why it didn't really catch on, despite being actually a very versatile synth. The manual really didn't help.

I'm sort of hoping the Fantom-06 can replace my old System 8, in that regard. just with more polyphony and parts.

[Adan]

Apropos of some of the early comments in this thread on the confusing model names, I haven't even opened this thread until now because I assumed it was about an existing Roland line, not a new one!  Then I saw while perusing Sweetwater that Roland has a new board, and only then came back to this thread.

 

I get along fine with Roland sounds and system designs, not so much with the action on their lower end pro boards.  The Fantom 06 would interest me if the action were a substantial upgrade from the FA, but from comments here sounds like it's more or less the same.  The concept of an all-in-one package with the VR organ in a 9 lb package sounds wonderful.  I just wish Roland had found some kind of compromise action between the silky Fantom and the cheap Juno/VR/FA06.  

[AnotherScott]

42 minutes ago, Adan said:

I just wish Roland had found some kind of compromise action between the silky Fantom and the cheap Juno/VR/FA06.  

The irritating thing is, they have it, they just didn't use it. The action from the Jupiter 50, something that was in a lightweight board and in production not so long ago, would have been perfect. The Fatar action they currently use in the FA-07, while not as good as that, is still a very respectable action. Go back a while, Roland had a really nice lightweight action in the RS-9. It's not like a high quality but lightweight action requires some kind of voodoo or exorbitantly priced or never-seen-before technology, and Roland has probably proven that more than anyone else. It does seem like, at least from our perspective, Roland was trying too hard to get the Fantom-0 down to a price.

 

Even the action in the AX-Edge, while probably no more suitable for piano than the one in the Fantom-07, has a nicer overall feel, and it even has aftertouch. The funny thing is, I've seen people complain that aftertouch can make for a "squishy" landing, but the AX-Edge has a nice landing, it is the Fantom-07 that has the squishier landing!

 

I've seen pics/videos online of people who have removed the keyboard sections and converted keyboards into desktop modules you can put over your desired set of keys... Once these start coming out of warranty, I wouldn't be surprised to find someone doing that with a Fantom-06.

 

Getting back to that whacky image I posted from the manual... That image actually appears in the manuals three times! Once in the user's manual, and twice in the reference guide. It's like a guy speaking a foreign language who thinks you'll understand him if he just keeps repeating himself.

 

Here's a tidbit I haven't seen mentioned here... MODX gets knocked because only 8 of its 16 Parts are keyboard-playable (the other 8 Parts are for sequencer or external control)... Well, if you enable the Tone Remain (seamless sound transitions), the Fantom-0 goes down to 8 Parts total, 9-16 are not available for internal OR external /sequencer control. It also may be a little less predictable, because besides the known organ exception to seamless switching, there's also a little disclaimer that says even when you turn Tone Remain on, "the effect sound might not be held in some cases."

 

 

[mauriziodececco]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:52 AM, Sean M. H. said:

 

Yeah I saw this picture in the manual, and immediately had flashbacks to math classes that I do NOT wish to ever revisit!  That image was definitely made by an engineer or someone completely out of touch with what the end-user is looking for in a user manual graphic....yikes 

 

Ehi, what's wrong with a small finite state automata ?

 

Maurizio 👹

[TomKittel]

On 4/10/2022 at 6:57 PM, AnotherScott said:

The irritating thing is, they have it, they just didn't use it. The action from the Jupiter 50, something that was in a lightweight board and in production not so long ago, would have been perfect.

 

 

 

 

The Juno Stage 76 (not to be confused with Juno G or Juno DS) has the very same action as the Jupiter 50. A very nice action indeed. I recently compared it with the flagship Fantom 7 action. While  the shape of the keys is a little different, the weights underneath the keys are very similar. The quality and the playing feel of the Jupiter 50/Juno Stage 76 action is equal to that of the flagship Fantom 7.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, TomKittel said:

 

The Juno Stage 76 (not to be confused with Juno G or Juno DS) has the very same action as the Jupiter 50. A very nice action indeed. I recently compared it with the flagship Fantom 7 action. While  the shape of the keys is a little different, the weights underneath the keys are very similar. The quality and the playing feel of the Jupiter 50/Juno Stage 76 action is equal to that of the flagship Fantom 7.

 Ah, that's interesting. I only played the Juno Stage briefly, in a store back when it was current, and I remember liking it. But it was so long ago, and my experience so brief, I didn't want to count on my memory being accurate. I do remember that my disappointments with it were the lack of aftertouch and that I didn't see a way to quickly change to different RH sounds while playing LH bass... the same things that have been tricky on so many boards! But I definitely had no issue with the action.

[AnotherScott]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:57 PM, AnotherScott said:

I've seen pics/videos online of people who have removed the keyboard sections and converted keyboards into desktop modules you can put over your desired set of keys... Once these start coming out of warranty, I wouldn't be surprised to find someone doing that with a Fantom-06.

 

Here's what someone did to a Krome...

 

 

Making a similar "desktop module" version of the Fantom-0 would be cool.

 

Too bad the manufacturers don't offer these variations themselves.

 

[kaptainkeys]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Making a similar "desktop module" version of the Fantom-0 would be cool.

Personally, I'd rather have a rack module, a desktop module like the Krome above still takes up space on a stand, just like a keyboard version would.

[AnotherScott]

Just now, GotKeys said:

Personally, I'd rather have a rack module, a desktop module like the Krome above still takes up space on a stand, just like a keyboard version would.

Kind of picking up from the "Have we finally reached 'Good enough' in ROMplers?" thread, I wouldn't be as interested in a rack, because the best thing about the Fantom-0 is the control surface. The interface and operational ergonomics are the main appeal, and you lose that in a rack, where it becomes little more than a "box of sounds." In fact, if that's what you want, there's already the Integra, which in some ways is better (it has the full range of SuperNATURAL Acoustic tones, whereas Fantom-0 only has a portion of them, and these are pretty much Roland's best instrument emulations).

 

I know what you mean about taking up space on a stand as a keyboard does, but it would work very well on a  third tier above two boards that have the hammer and non-hammer actions you want (and whatever other features and sounds of their own), whereas putting a whole third keyboard up there can be a little more unwieldy, in terms of making sure its controls aren't too far away from you, and making sure its keys don't block visual/operation access to the controls of the keyboard beneath. Some people may even prefer the lack of keys even if only using it as a second tier board, for similar reasons. It could also be an aesthetic decision (not looking as overwhelming, if you prefer a leaner presentation), or something that helps you better fit on tight stages, compared to a full board.

 

And if you're not already bringing a rack for other purposes, I think a rack can sometimes be more of a nuisance than an extra board. It can be more effort to find a good place to put it, wiring can be more cumbersome (with variables of distance, and having to be sure to not create a tripping hazard), and between the weight of the rack itself and the fact that rack modules have to have metal rather than plastic chassis, they can quickly get heavy.

 

Of course, all these things can vary with the particular situation, and I can see why people like racks,  too. 

[stoken6]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Here's what someone did to a Krome...

 

 

Making a similar "desktop module" version of the Fantom-0 would be cool.

 

Too bad the manufacturers don't offer these variations themselves.

 

That hurts my eyes just looking at the thing. It looks like it's been mutilated!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

On 4/10/2022 at 1:18 PM, AnotherScott said:

Really, can anyone make heads or tails out of this diagram in the manual? Sheesh.

SURE CAN heres my take on it.

[stoken6]

On the left the left shoe is to the right of the right shoe and the right shoe to the left of the left shoe...

...whereas on the right the left shoe is to the left of the right shoe and the right shoe is to the right of the left shoe...

 

Right?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ABECK]

On 4/12/2022 at 7:37 AM, AnotherScott said:

 

Here's what someone did to a Krome...

 

 

Making a similar "desktop module" version of the Fantom-0 would be cool.

 

Too bad the manufacturers don't offer these variations themselves.

 

Definitely a cool option for retaining the tactile interface.  Other than the Oberheim Xpander and the Kurzweil Expander, I can't think of any other examples of where this was used in a production model.

 

[EscapeRocks]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

On the left the left shoe is to the right of the right shoe and the right shoe to the left of the left shoe...

...whereas on the right the left shoe is to the left of the right shoe and the right shoe is to the right of the left shoe...

 

Right?

 

Cheers, Mike.

Except look closely at the shoe details, especially the heel.    Think of it as looking up thru a glass floor, in which case the Right and Left are correctly placed

[kaptainkeys]

Our good friend Jack has just compared the Fantom 0 to the Nautilus and the MODX:

 

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

Except look closely at the shoe details, especially the heel.    Think of it as looking up thru a glass floor, in which case the Right and Left are correctly placed

If I'm looking up through a glass floor then the pink shoes are inverted!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[zephonic]

On 4/12/2022 at 4:37 AM, AnotherScott said:

 

Here's what someone did to a Krome...

 

 

Absolutely nobody is gonna miss the keys on a Krome. Great sound, terrible action. That guy came out ahead.

 

I exchanged my DS76 for the Fantom-07. Can't wait.

[pawelsz]

3 minutes ago, zephonic said:

 

Absolutely nobody is gonna miss the keys on a Krome. Great sound, terrible action. That guy came out ahead.

 

I exchanged my DS76 for the Fantom-07. Can't wait.

 

I'm looking forward for your thoughts about keybed of Fantom-07. Frankly speaking I thought you may be able to do side-by-side comparison, but I think your hands remember JUNO-DS76 action well  .

 

[ABECK]

5 minutes ago, zephonic said:

 

Absolutely nobody is gonna miss the keys on a Krome. Great sound, terrible action. That guy came out ahead.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, ABECK said:

Definitely a cool option for retaining the tactile interface.  Other than the Oberheim Xpander and the Kurzweil Expander, I can't think of any other examples of where this was used in a production model.

 

 

Korg M3 (and similarly designed Radias) let you detach the top part and use it by itself, that was pretty brilliant. (They also sold those parts by themselves.) Too bad that idea didn't take off. But on the synth side, there are quite a few companies making keyboardless versions of some of their keyboards these days... Waldorf Blofeld, ASM Hydrasynth, some Sequential stuff, some Behringer stuff, at least. But none of the rompler/workstation-style boards.

[zephonic]

23 minutes ago, pawelsz said:

 

I'm looking forward for your thoughts about keybed of Fantom-07. Frankly speaking I thought you may be able to do side-by-side comparison, but I think your hands remember JUNO-DS76 action well  .

 

 

Actually, I only played the DS76 for like 20 minutes, but it felt fine to me. I had to travel and it sat in the house untouched for seven weeks. I'm just glad Sweetwater was willing to exchange it.

 

[ABECK]

22 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Korg M3 (and similarly designed Radias) let you detach the top part and use it by itself, that was pretty brilliant. (They also sold those parts by themselves.) Too bad that idea didn't take off. But on the synth side, there are quite a few companies making keyboardless versions of some of their keyboards these days... Waldorf Blofeld, ASM Hydrasynth, some Sequential stuff, some Behringer stuff, at least. But none of the rompler/workstation-style boards.

Yeah, I guess the concept more or less morphed into what became the desktop model (rather than a full-size keyboardless box).  Makes sense.

[Charleston]

And then there's the Roland K25m.

[Baldwin Funster]

Or JDXi. Actually I dusted off my jdxi and obviously the keybed is a toy but the thing has the best sounds of any toy around. And it's perfectly fine for pads and mono synth uses.

[Art-0252]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:54 PM, AnotherScott said:

Right, so there's your choice... trade off action/build quality, or trade off sounds/functionalities.

 

On 4/9/2022 at 10:03 AM, Stokely said:

Not having owned a Stage--but having considered it strongly until they kept jacking the price--it does have a lot more "power" considering each engine can be used twice in splits or layers for one patch (iirc).  The Electro is much more limited in that regard, and of course doesn't have a Nord Lead A1 built in....Whether you need those things is the question.  

That Lead A1 is the reason I wanted the Stage, really...it's far more functionality than he samples with a bit of manipulation like the Electro does.  

I'm torn on the MODX7...sure I'd rather be playing a Montage with it's standard power cable   and excellent build quality.  I don't mind the weight really, though no doubt it's super easy to tote and place the MODX7.  I don't mind the lack of aftertouch, I don't really use it live.   But that's just a huge difference in $$ that's hard for me to justify.

 

On 4/9/2022 at 2:39 PM, AnotherScott said:

Tangentially, yes, the fact that the Electro has such a diminished feature set (compared to the full Fantom OR compared to the Stage) means that it is largely aimed at a different buyer (which gets back to the differentiation you were making between a single do-it-all board vs. something better designed to be part of a pair). But maybe that's the consequence of Nord maintaining first class build even in entry models. That is, the Electro isn't built so well at the expense of functionality because they wanted the board to have limited appeal as a do-it-all board, rather it has limited appeal as a do-it-all board because it has first class build at a (relatively) modest price, and as you said, "something's got to give." 

All of these arguments are predicated on the idea that either build quality/action or features MUST be compromised by the manufacturer. That very well may be the case, but the fact  that companies like Modal can put a really nice synth keybed like the Fatar Tp9s in their sub 1k synths paired with a solid metal build quality, makes me wonder....Cynical as I am about these things I think it's more along the lines of "Let's compromise some of the functionality AND some of the build quality on our mid-tier models so that either the features OR the action could potentially persuade someone to spend more money on the flagship depending on what's the sticking point for them." I'm with Stokely in that if the Montage was a little less expensive I would have certainly purchased it instead of a MODX ( which I sold because the action and build quality bothered me so much).