Hammond SKX Pro

[HammondDave]

2 hours ago, GotKeys said:

Seems like hammond is trying to lose customers... even Viscount has an effects loop on their clones, and they are a small Italian outift, not the name in tonewheel organs.

 

They lost me years ago...

[AnotherScott]

On 4/23/2022 at 12:39 PM, funkyhammond said:

It is so frustrating when a new model seems to take a big step backwards in some way. 

 

Like half the things Apple comes out with, it seems. 

 

But yeah, it's unfortunately common in keyboards. Almost every Nord Electro or Stage, despite its new enhancements, is also in some way inferior to the model it replaced.  Yamaha MODX is great, but lots of people complain about some of the things that were better in the Motif XF, like the sequencer (same with the Fantom-0 replacing the FA). Nautilus lacks some of what was in Kronos. I was bummed that the Korg M50 lost the aftertouch, assignable outs, and optional sample memory of its TR predecessor. Roland's newer actions are generally not as good as their older ones. I imagine there could be a whole thread just about this.

[b3plyr]

A lot of good info here....Jim has a good point - more input from real musicians early in the development stage would make a big difference, assuming cost is not an overriding issue. And I like the idea of using something like IK Multimedia libraries. However, Scott is right - rewritable memory is expensive, particularly if NOR technology is used. NAND is plausible ins one cases but is much slower in the read cycles, but much faster in the write cycles. It also costs less. Regardless, NOR seems to be preferred and is the most expensive. However, some of Nord's products and the new Numa X Piano both have about 2 GB of memory. And look at what Kurzweil has done with FlashPlay.

 

As to using other libraries such as 1K Multimedia, lack of memory is the real issue. I can't speak for the Sk Pro but the SK2 did not have much memory by today's standards. I would assume the Skx Pro has some similar limitations. Hope I am wrong. Jim?

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, drawback said:

How long did it take for Yamaha to come down off their high Electone horse to finally fully apply their immense resources to replicate a Hammond? Some companies eventually reexamine themselves honestly and bow to the market. I have new respect for Yamaha after their recent reimagining.

 

I agree. But how long has that taken? And what triggered it finally? That would be really fascinating to know!

 

Hopefully Hammond-Suzuki will do much better in the near future with their APs/EPs. And maybe if the Yamaha CP/YC sales do really well, Hammond-Suzuki will be pressured to wake up.  And while they're at it, also hire some proper UX people. 

 

Is it possible that they are still primarily thinking about organ players who just want some other sounds and are fine with the way it is? Although you'd have to really question the complexity of the interface even on that count. Maybe that's what they were going for but dropped the ball by having engineers design the interface.

 

Regarding the more general point of listening to customers, I expect very small companies like Crumar to be more agile and respond more easily to customers, so I don't think that's the best comparison to large companies. But it can also depend on company culture and who makes the final decisions. For example, Nord clearly has some very rigid design ideas. The Electro 2 was released in 2002 and it wasn't until 10 years later with the release of the C2D and Electro 4D that they finally listened to customers and put in drawbars instead of drawbuttons. And that is still limited to just certain 'D' and compact editions. But, overall, there's no denying the massive success of Nord for their execution of the bread-and-butter stage keyboard concept.

 

Yamaha has now taken a serious stab at it. C'mon Hammond, we know you can do it!

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, b3plyr said:

Scott is right - rewritable memory is expensive, particularly if NOR technology is used. NAND is plausible ins one cases but is much slower in the read cycles, but much faster in the write cycles. It also costs less. Regardless, NOR seems to be preferred and is the most expensive. However, some of Nord's products and the new Numa X Piano both have about 2 GB of memory. And look at what Kurzweil has done with FlashPlay.

The reason NOR is preferred is that it looks like RAM to the processor. Absent the kind of memory management capabilities you only find in full-blown computers, you typically can't play/stream directly off NAND, it has to be copied into RAM first. So then "savings" from the cheaper NAND flash is at least somewhat offset by having to put a that much more RAM into the keyboard, plus the board takes longer to boot as all the data has to be copied from flash into RAM at every boot. FlashPlay does appear to be an exception... but it's also patented, so whatever it is Kurzweil figured out how to do, no one else can do it that way.

 

1 hour ago, b3plyr said:

I can't speak for the Sk Pro but the SK2 did not have much memory by today's standards. I would assume the Skx Pro has some similar limitations. Hope I am wrong. Jim?

I don't know about the Skx Pro, but I'm pretty sure the SK Pro has 128 mb of sample data for the piano/ensemble sections. (There's been no indication that it is rewritable, but it's not impossible that it might be.)

[wd8dky]

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Every time I see a picture of the back panel of the Hammond Skx, I think it's the "Hammond Ska". 🙂

[Old No7]

Boy, there's a lot of "crunch" in the overdrive of that latest SKX Pro video... I like it most times (9:21, 9:39, 11:06), but there's a few spots where it just sounds like background "noise" (0:11 - 0:29) and not part of the drawbars sound.  And that high "shrill" starting around 1:45 -- Ouch... Not for me, gotta tame that one.

 

And I recently got an SK Pro 73; still figuring it all out.

 

Old No7

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Old No7 said:

there's a few spots where it just sounds like background "noise" (0:11 - 0:29) and not part of the drawbars sound. 

 

That's a problem that a number of boards have. It's very unnatural... a real Hammond/Leslie overdrive obviously does not sound like a clean Hammond with a second "layered" distorted sound, and yes, sometimes this definitely sounds like that (which I guess, underneath is how it is creating the sound)... but since it does not always sound like that, it's presumably a matter of seeing what settings create the proper illusion of a single, integrated distorted organ sound and being careful to avoid settings that do not. My feeling is that the overdrive in the SK Pro is noticeably better than what was in the earlier SK, but is still not as good as the best of them. But I think it has crossed the threshold of being quite usable, with the right settings. A tip from one of Jim's first videos, to set the crossover frequency low, is a big help. Though it does make me wonder why they ship the unit with a default setting that is actually pretty poor. A new user who simply goes onto the screen to increase the overdrive will probably be disappointed, since It's pretty bad until you employ Jim's tip which presumably most new users won't immediately know about or be able to obviously discern from simply looking at that screen.

[kwyn]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

A tip from one of Jim's first videos, to set the crossover frequency low, is a big help. Though it does make me wonder why they ship the unit with a default setting that is actually pretty poor. A new user who simply goes onto the screen to increase the overdrive will probably be disappointed, since It's pretty bad until you employ Jim's tip which presumably most new users won't immediately know about or be able to obviously discern from simply looking at that screen.

Did he mention where to set it?  How low? Approximately?

[Jim Alfredson]

Last night I used the SK Pro 73 straight into the PA, monitoring via the stage monitor next to me. The organ was killer, no surprise there. The Wurlitzer sounded great, too. My only complaint is the acoustic piano. Again... it's fine. But it should be better than fine. The worst part of it is the sustain / lack of string resonance. When you hold a chord, it disappears too quickly (even after I tweaked the sustain to be as long as I could). 

But it works. I'll probably be using the SK Pro in Germany in June as my only keyboard. It is nice to just have one board and be able to cover everything I need.

[AnotherScott]

44 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

My only complaint is the acoustic piano.

I guess there was no need for clav on this gig. ;-)

[funkyhammond]

Can anyone confirm if the SK Pro or SKX Pro can send high-trigger notes over MIDI (and what it takes to make it do that)? I assume it can since the previous SK could. 

 

I would like to update the list on the high-trigger thread.

[Jim Alfredson]

13 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I guess there was no need for clav on this gig. 😉

 
The clav is good. Not as good as the original SK line but I think if I spend time tweaking it, I can get it there. It's not as 'nasally' as the original SK. Probably just need to EQ the poop out of it.

[AnotherScott]

2 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

 
The clav is good. Not as good as the original SK line but I think if I spend time tweaking it, I can get it there. It's not as 'nasally' as the original SK. Probably just need to EQ the poop out of it.

 Maybe I should be looking forward to a JA tweaked download that will do for its clav what you famously did for Hammond tonewheel sets!

[KRK]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:48 PM, Old No7 said:

Boy, there's a lot of "crunch" in the overdrive of that latest SKX Pro video... I like it most times (9:21, 9:39, 11:06), but there's a few spots where it just sounds like background "noise" (0:11 - 0:29) and not part of the drawbars sound.  And that high "shrill" starting around 1:45 -- Ouch... Not for me, gotta tame that one.

 

And I recently got an SK Pro 73; still figuring it all out.

 

Old No7

 

ciao 👋

 

if you are referring to my video (posted here above), I'm not able to understand what you mean by background noise at 0:11, or shrill at 1:45 (I'm opening the last drawbar so that is what happens with my 1964 C3 too 😃 )

 

talking about overdrive, please feel free to see my last video focused on the different drives and their frequencies crossover. this allows to obtain different overall organ sound, dependidng on drive type and its dedicated filter crossover 👍

it has never been easier to model the final organ sound...

 

focus on overdrive

[funkyhammond]

When I was testing out the SK Pro 61 in the store, I didn't see any drawbar presets. Did I miss something? IIRC switching to a totally different patch combination did have an audio pause if done in the middle of playing so that didn't seem like a great workaround.

[Old No7]

Quote

KRK:  if you are referring to my video (posted here above), I'm not able to understand what you mean by background noise at 0:11, or shrill at 1:45 (I'm opening the last drawbar so that is what happens with my 1964 C3 too 😃 )

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply -- first thing I did upon seeing your newest posting was to use much better headphones to listen to the earlier video.  Those helped, and I'll use those before replying on any posts in the future.

 

Quote

KRK:  talking about overdrive, please feel free to see my last video focused on the different drives and their frequencies crossover. this allows to obtain different overall organ sound, dependidng on drive type and its dedicated filter crossover 👍

it has never been easier to model the final organ sound...

 

focus on overdrive

 

Now we're talking!  Thank for your taking the time to show & play the various overdrive settings (tube, solid, clip) on the "focus on overdrive" video, along with showing us how you varied the amount of overdrive ("drive") or changed the drawbars.  That was really well done -- and great playing too!  I really enjoyed it!  (I believe I heard some Jon Lord influences in there -- great job!)

 

I like the "crunch" that you've shown us that the SK Pro series is capable of delivering, and that latest "focus" video will help a lot of SK pro users.  Much appreciated.

 

Rock on!!!

 

Old No7

[Old No7]

KRK's "focus on overdrive" video

 

 

[KRK]

7 hours ago, Old No7 said:

Now we're talking!  Thank for your taking the time to show & play the various overdrive settings (tube, solid, clip) on the "focus on overdrive" video, along with showing us how you varied the amount of overdrive ("drive") or changed the drawbars.  That was really well done -- and great playing too!  I really enjoyed it!  (I believe I heard some Jon Lord influences in there -- great job!)

 

Rock on!!!

 

Old No7

 

thanks to you 😃

(no clean organ sound at all on my channel 🤣🤣🤣🤣)

[KRK]

some noisy mess... 

[Al Coda]

1 hour ago, KRK said:

some noisy mess... 

 

 

cool !

 

The more I hear the overdrive, I wonder why it reminds me to IK Multimedia B3-X as also I wondered why B3-X carries the H/S logo as well.

 

A.C.

[funkyhammond]

5 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

 

cool !

 

The more I hear the overdrive, I wonder why it reminds me to IK Multimedia B3-X as also I wondered why B3-X carries the H/S logo as well.

 

A.C.

 

According to IKM, the Leslie engineers (presumably the ones that develop the new physical Leslies) helped them develop their Leslie sim. But that doesn't mean that the SK/SKX Pro Leslie sim is the same. When I played the SK Pro in the store, the Leslie effect, while very good, did not sound the same as the B-3X (or the equivalent IKM T-Racks/Amplitube Leslie). But given that some of the same engineers might have helped inform both of those sims, I guess they might wind up sounding similar in many ways. I'd say the rotary effect, though, was the most obvious difference. It sounds more subtle/transparent in the SK Pro and more prominent in the B-3X, at least with default settings. Things like cabinet emulation, mic positioning, room acoustics, might be the biggest differences in how those sims were developed.

[JoJoB3]

The OD issues listed relates to many other posts (realism).  If you can, try a real leslie with the clone.  Let that handle a fair amount of push (allowing you to back off the fake OD permeating so many clones).  The P15/Utah 15 and V21 of a vintage leslie is going to tame much of that fakey sizzle od and introduce it's own breakup (when pushed) which is more natural (naturally  ).

That said I still do not hate Hamm-Suzuki's OD design and parameters (XK3c, XK5) given it's tweakability. Even better when replacing with choice NOS tubes.
SK's....not so much. Similar OD to most others imo.

But any clone through a real leslie and yer that much closer to reaching B3 valhalla.
Problem is - the other sounds. Does the SK/SKXpro have separate output for the non-organ sounds btw?

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

That said I still do not hate Hamm-Suzuki's OD design and parameters (XK3c, XK5) given it's tweakability. Even better when replacing with choice NOS tubes.
SK's....not so much. Similar OD to most others imo.

SK Pro overdrive is better than previous SK, plenty of tweakability,

 

2 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Does the SK/SKXpro have separate output for the non-organ sounds btw?

SK has it if you take the organ from the Leslie connector (and they have a cable to adapt that to 1/4" if need be). SK Pro has it via separately assignable 1/4" jacks.

[KRK]

the "separate line outputs thing"...

 

that same evening... 

[Al Coda]

3 hours ago, KRK said:

that same evening... 

 

 

A.C.

[KRK]

 

spoiler: only The Maestro could obtain that sound (for the changes made to his leslie, etc).

having said that, the principle is basically simple and now, if it is really difficult to get the Lord sound, it is relatively easier to approach the Don Airey sound (see his famous video "Gear Run" on the Tube).

 

it is a matter of miking a leslie and a guitar amp and mixing the signals...

all very easy, except that it is impossible for a human being to sustain that kind of volume in the studio / apartment / live stage, in a era in which we tend to see "zero impact sound" stages. so... digital simulations!

 

and the SKX Pro seems to have been created for that kind of experiment ...

as already seen in previous posts, thanks to the special separate output of the organ generator (without leslie simulation), you can take advantage of an external leslie (see my videos with the Tornado), sending all the other sounds in stereo to the mixer through the main Left / Right outputs.

but you can also use an external guitar amp (or simulation) too, and since you can choose to output the organ signal at the same time with the internal leslie simulation from the main Left / Right outputs, the game is done: mix the two signals in a mixer and we're done 🙂.

 

but...

SKX Pro has an "AUX IN" audio input (for putting in mp3 players, other instruments, etc.) and from there the sound is sent to the usual main Left / Right outputs... so the audio you hear in today's video comes directly from the Left / Right outputs connected to the camera.

organ with internal leslie mixed with organ with guitar amp: the signal of the latter (a very old "Speaker Simulator" pedal) is inserted into the SKX Pro AUX IN and it is mixed with the sound of the organ with the leslie ( NOT "one into the other", but one IN PARALLEL to the other).

 

organ's signal comes out of SKX Pro and re-enters it 😀😃 (after being processed).

result to be perfected (also given the superior quality of some Chinese pedals currently on the market that simulate a 4X12 Marshall much better than the old 90s pedal I used)...

 

experiments...

[Al Coda]

That´s how IK Multimedia B3-X works !

Mix leslie sim, guitar amp and cab sim w/ direct signal (DI) in parallel.

And then, there are the stomp box sims and master FX in addition.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Losendoskeys]

I got my SKX Pro a couple of weeks ago and set about setting it up identically (as possible) to my SKX - sitting side by side.

There are different parameters such as tonewheek descriptions which throw you out, but mostly it's possible to get them matching.

I mostly prefer the layout of the SKX Pro, though as usual the display would be better at the FRONT of the panel for those of us who have a top keyboard!!
I do like the reintroduction of pitch bend and mod wheels as was on the XK3 - about time!

Observations - I don't think the SKX Pro is much better than the SKX, though it seems to be able to have more volume without distorting.
I don't think the Leslie emulation is better than a Vent, so that stays.

I have no use for the internal sounds but I will explore them in due course in case my outboard MIDI Roland fantom XR Rack fails.

An expensive upgrade but worth it for the better layout.