Another stand thread

[RichieP_MechE]

I have it. I cracked it. At a gig over the summer, the answer became clear to me. (I'm not kidding.) I've spent years threatening to make my own stand, and working on designs in my head, but something just "happened" at a gig that solved it. I refine it in my head all the time, but if you design things for real, and might be someone who could fabricate a test model, I'd love to talk to you.

I think I'm probably your guy. Here's the one stand I designed but never built, attempting to improve on the K&M 18880 (which I own), turning the sliding joints into rotary joints. I'll shoot you a PM

[Mr -G-]

In my humble opinion, the ideal double stand should also allow for the upper kbd to rest directly on top of the lower one (OK with some rubber discs or foam mat), so the lower kbd's panel is fully accessible (rather than hidden *under* the upper one). I suppose this is tricky to design as the depth and height of instruments vary. The design above by RichieP_MechE looks really good, but it probably would not allow me setting two kbds in the way I want. Since it is at the design stage, perhaps somebody can think of a way to make the upper shelf arms to slide backwards as well as changing height and angle?

[AnotherScott]

In my humble opinion, the ideal double stand should also allow for the upper kbd to rest directly on top of the lower one (OK with some rubber discs or foam mat), so the lower kbd's panel is fully accessible (rather than hidden *under* the upper one). I suppose this is tricky to design as the depth and height of instruments vary. The design above by RichieP_MechE looks really good, but it probably would not allow me setting two kbds in the way I want. Since it is at the design stage, perhaps somebody can think of a way to make the upper shelf arms to slide backwards as well as changing height and angle?

Yes, the ability to flip that top tier backwards (as you can on the K&M 18880) is key for that sort of thing, and that approach is also what made the Invisibles so popular. It works well and is what I prefer for when by bottom board is shallow, like a Casio 88 or similar slab. If your bottom board has a deep control surface that you need to access, you have to compromise one way or the other... the second tier board has to end up either further back than you'd like, or higher than you'd like (to allow some clearance for panel access below).

[Mr -G-]

If the upper shelf arms can be flipped backwards AND tilt towards the lower shelf AND change height, it would be great. The legs should also be extended to keep the centre of mass inside the span of the legs.

[AnotherScott]

A couple of recent stand thoughts...

 

I think this standing/sitting desk shows an idea that would be nice to see adapted to a keyboard stand... it looks like the front and rear "tiers" can be adjusted completely independently of each other. 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, I've mentioned that the biggest obvious limitation of the K&M18880 is that the height adjustment is time consuming. Having done it a few times now, I think I could now probably do it in under 5 minutes (I know I've done it in well under 10). Still, that's a big difference from the under-30 seconds other adjustments require. And it's still not something I'd want to do at a gig, on a dark or cramped stage, or somewhere it would be easy to lose a dropped piece. It's still something to be done in advance of the gig rather than at it. (But do people really need to adjust the height of the stand AT the gig? Would you not know in advance whether you'll need sitting height or standing height?) I still wouldn't suggest this for someone who needs to adjust height often (I don't), but at least it's not as bad as I thought. I'm not mechanical at all, it probably took me closer to 30 minutes to adjust the height the first time! But it's not quite so bad once you actually grasp how the bits work, what order you should do things in, and what position is best to do them from. It just required waiting for some "a-ha" moments. If you're mechanically oriented, you'll certainly get it faster than I did.

 

Though if you only need to go back and forth between a couple of heights that aren't TOO different, I think the easiest thing to do would still be to leave it low and pop on little risers as needed, as illustrated here:

 

I wouldn't want to do a huge change that way, but for a couple of inches, anyway, it should be fine. (Held there by velcro or similar.)

 

I've talked before about flipping the 18881 stacker backwards, but in this case that's the 18882 stacker on top that's flipped, because I wanted an angle with a stop. This is actually an unusual approach for me. I've always preferred keeping the keys of stacked boards as close to each other as possible, but I've been experimenting with some particular 3-board combos where that doesn't really work. Sometimes it can... I've even configured this K&M with four boards on it, all keys very close together, but that's only viable when at least two have minimal horizontal control surface areas behind the keys that have to be kept visible/accessible (e.g. a Casio a Privia, Korg SV1, Numa Organ, Roland AX-Edge, or the way I was using it, Vox Continental). But in this case, even the 3-board combinations I'm playing consist of boards that ALL require significant panel access (YC73, PC4-7, and either SK Pro or Fantom-0). So I'm sacrificing my "keep the keys of the boards as close together as possible" approach in order to maximize 3-deep-board accessibility without any keys or control surfaces being too far away for comfortable access. I'm not sure how much I'd actually gig with 3 boards instead of 2, but it's a nice setup. And back to the topic at hand, this 3-tier board collapses flat, sets up or breaks down in maybe about 15 seconds., and only weighs 11.6 lbs. 

 

I was actually first playing around with these 3-board combos on my Standtastic, which is good for this kind of thing, but then I realized I could do the same thing on the K&M, which weighs about half as much, is easier to move around, and is less finicky to adjust (though the Standtastic does give you finer control over the height of each tier).

[Sean M. H.]

On 4/13/2022 at 4:44 PM, AnotherScott said:

It's still something to be done in advance of the gig rather than at it. (But do people really need to adjust the height of the stand AT the gig? Would you not know in advance whether you'll need sitting height or standing height?) I still wouldn't suggest this for someone who needs to adjust height often...

 

Yes, I'm one of those guys that tends to decide stand height at the gig.  Admittedly, some of that is my own indecisiveness...but also, at a lot of my gigs, we just have no idea what kind of stage/performance-area we're going to be presented with.  So even though the footprint of the board itself doesn't change sitting vs standing, the chair/bench itself takes up additional space, that may or not be available. 

 

I also go back and forth between one board vs two boards depending on the gig too.  Playing with the gospel band, a) we have a second keyboard player and b) our performance slots are often only 20-30 minutes...so, unless we're doing a full concert, I'll usually only take one board.  So that plays into stand height as well; I've always preferred sitting when I've got the two boards, whereas with one board either sitting or standing is fine.

 

Aesthetically, sometimes stand height is a consideration as well.  With the party bands that I've played with, I've actually had some band leaders request that I play standing--to be more in line with the high-energy nature of the band/music/gig...on the other hand, standing can look totally out of place in some of the church or jazz settings.  Obviously, this is the type of thing you'd know before the gig, but as you said, it would still mean having to perform the adjustment regularly/often.

 

Finally, there's a--somewhat unique, I think--expectation within the gospel realm in regards to setup time.  So imagine a gig where there's 5-6 bands, each performs for 20-25 minutes, the only backline is the drum kit, and transitions between bands is expected to happen within 3-5 minutes or people start shooting you dirty looks...this is actually a fairly typical event format in the black gospel circuit, especially at the amateur/semi-professional level.  Maybe it is not isolated to gospel, but I haven't really experienced it as much with other bands/genres, at least not to the same degree.  Fortunately, my gospel band has grown to the point where we now get higher quality gigs--or throw our own events...but this is the background that I am coming from, and the context which explains why the idea of ever having to take 5 minutes just to set up my stand is so unnerving to me lol.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

Yes, I'm one of those guys that tends to decide stand height at the gig.  Admittedly, some of that is my own indecisiveness...but also, at a lot of my gigs, we just have no idea what kind of stage/performance-area we're going to be presented with.  So even though the footprint of the board itself doesn't change sitting vs standing, the chair/bench itself takes up additional space, that may or not be available. 

Good point. I can imagine someone showing up at a gig intending to sit, seeing the space, and going, "well, I guess I'm standing for this one." 

 

4 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

I also go back and forth between one board vs two boards depending on the gig too.  Playing with the gospel band, a) we have a second keyboard player and b) our performance slots are often only 20-30 minutes...so, unless we're doing a full concert, I'll usually only take one board.  So that plays into stand height as well; I've always preferred sitting when I've got the two boards, whereas with one board either sitting or standing is fine.

That's funny, I'm the opposite. Sitting, I think I'd prefer to play a single board to whatever extent possible, because the top board is likely to be less comfortable to operate (height of the keys, distance of the controls, visibility of the screen)... but it depends on the boards, too.

 

4 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

 

Aesthetically, sometimes stand height is a consideration as well.  With the party bands that I've played with, I've actually had some band leaders request that I play standing--to be more in line with the high-energy nature of the band/music/gig...on the other hand, standing can look totally out of place in some of the church or jazz settings.  Obviously, this is the type of thing you'd know before the gig, but as you said, it would still mean having to perform the adjustment regularly/often.

Yes, definitely. If you go back and forth a lot, with significant height differences, you would want a stand with easier height adjustment. Or two stands! Which really, may be a particularly good solution on the K&M, at least if you're in Europe where the K&Ms aren't so darned expensive! They are so compact and light, it wouldn't even be a hassle to to put your "high" and "low" 18880 stands both in the car, and decide at the gig whether you want to bring in the sitting one or the standing one. Even if you had extra tiers, you'd only need one set, it would take almost no time to move the higher tiers from one base unit on to the other. As for total schleppage, at least in travel weight, two 18880 stands still weigh less than most single stands, and usually one would just stay in the car anyway.

 

4 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

Finally, there's a--somewhat unique, I think--expectation within the gospel realm in regards to setup time.  So imagine a gig where there's 5-6 bands, each performs for 20-25 minutes, the only backline is the drum kit, and transitions between bands is expected to happen within 3-5 minutes

Yeah, that's the kind of gig I'd be looking at doing with only a single board.

 

[Throbert]

[drand48a]

On 11/17/2021 at 3:23 AM, Bobadohshe said:

But you can't adjust the height!!! Total dealbreaker for me. I need to play this thing standing and boards have dramatically varying depths.

 

The height on the K&M 18880 can be easily adjusted by simply replacing 4 bolts with quick release pins.  At the gig, before opening it up all the way, place it upside down for easy access, pull the two pins on one leg, slide to where you've marked your fave spot for the purpose, and pop the pins back in.  Repeat for the other leg.

 

I just can't stress how easy this stand is to set up.  Ten seconds, literally.  Spread it out, plop it down, tighten the two knobs on the scissors brace.

 

Drill a few holes to fix the limited adjustment on tier height (to get tiers closer together).  I've never found a need to shorten the tier arms, for either 18881 or 18882, with an Electro over a stage piano.

 

The biggest limitation is if you want it very short AND want your tiers very close, because the tier bottom inserts hit the tops of the feet inserts, inside the leg tubes.  That's fixable too, with a hacksaw, but then you won't be able to set the tier as high as before.  Pick your compromise.

 

The only other thing I wasn't delighted with is that the tubes clack inside the other tubes.  Fixed with electrical tap around the ends of the insert tubes.

 

Best stand ever.  After losing mine I replaced it right away.

 

Forgive the necropost.

[NosPup]

9 minutes ago, drand48a said:

 

The height on the K&M 18880 can be easily adjusted by simply replacing 4 bolts with quick release pins.  At the gig, before opening it up all the way, place it upside down for easy access, pull the two pins on one leg, slide to where you've marked your fave spot for the purpose, and pop the pins back in.  Repeat for the other leg.

 

I just can't stress how easy this stand is to set up.  Ten seconds, literally.  Spread it out, plop it down, tighten the two knobs on the scissors brace.

 

Drill a few holes to fix the limited adjustment on tiers.

 

The biggest limitation is if you want it very short AND want your tiers very close, because the tier bottom inserts hit the tops of the feet inserts, inside the leg tubes.  That's fixable too, with a hacksaw, but then you won't be able to set the tier as high as before.  Pick your compromise.

 

The only other thing I wasn't delighted with is that the tubes clack inside the other tubes.  Fixed with electrical tap around the ends of the insert tubes.

 

Best stand ever.  After losing mine I replaced it right away.

 

Forgive the necropost.

Thanks for the info. What did you use for the quick release pins?  I replaced with knobs on mine, but your idea is better !

[drand48a]

I haven't done it, because I usually want the same height all the time.  Though, recently I played at a place where there's usually a short barstool, only it was MIA and I had to use a normal barstool, which was too high, and I'd have liked to make a quick adjustment.  So, I might do this mod.  (The shorty barstool did turn up before the show, thankfully.  And normally I have my own stool but at this regular place I don't bother because, there's one there ... maybe!)

 

I'd use something like this, but hope to find a shorter one: https://formufit.com/products/formufit-small-diameter-pvc-quick-release-pin-4-pack

 

Also, I'd drill holes in the bottom of the stand's legs.  I just noticed that these bolts don't go through holes, they sit in a groove, meaning that if not tightened, the feet could fall out when carried.

 

Another thing about the 18880 that I learned: If you only need 2 tiers (base and one additional), consider getting the 18882 (mid-level tier) rather than the 18881 (top level tier.)  The reason (for me) is that I like the tube openings at the back for various purposes.  Currently I made little wooden speaker stands that pop in there for small monitors.  Great at home, not quite loud enough for a typical too-loud stage. (I wish I could find some small powered speakers with say 110 dB SPL but so far no luck, and I have bigger fish to fry.)  And above, I see a mic stand attached, which would be great too.  Or possibly, a music rest.  It's just a real handy way to add stuff to your rig.

[drand48a]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:24 PM, AnotherScott said:

[video:youtube]

 

But for now I'm managing by reconfiguring some of what I already had.

This is a great video, showing two reasons why I wouldn't want this stand.

 

First, I'd love to post a video of setting up the 18880 with the same number of tiers.   10 seconds rather than 45.

 

Second, I'd knock my keyboard off that stand when doing a palm smear (especially if I'm doing it on my hammer-action keys on the lower tier.  And especially after a few too many beers, which of course never happens.)

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, NosPup said:

Thanks for the info. What did you use for the quick release pins?  I replaced with knobs on mine, but your idea is better !

The quick release pin idea sounds interesting, but what kind of knobs did you use for your solution?

[NosPup]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The quick release pin idea sounds interesting, but what kind of knobs did you use for your solution?

I’ll take some pictures tomorrow and post it. 

[NosPup]

Here are some pictures with the knobs on and off. I can make changes without any tools which can be handy. Although I very rarely make changes. 

[AnotherScott]

53 minutes ago, NosPup said:

Here are some pictures with the knobs on and off. I can make changes without any tools which can be handy. Although I very rarely make changes. 

Nice. Can you possibly post a source for the knobs? Or any relevant sizing info?

 

I likewise rarely want to change the height, but it would be nice to make it a quick job when needed. This (or the pin idea) would seem to take care of Bobadohshe's issue with the stand, and MathOfInsect's biggest issue with it as well.

[Stokely]

I've settled in to using my white Omega pro with or without 2nd tier now at gigs.  Not the easiest to transport but it's solid, completely open underneath and I just prefer it over my spider pro's column.   Looks sharp too.

I don't like the 2nd tier height and using risers on the 1st tier like those shown above in AnotherScott's post actually came to mind.  Two inches or so would make a big difference as I could then lower the whole stand by that much, not to mention getting the two keyboards closer together.

The other option would be, if I was handy enough, to shorten the 2nd tier.  It would be a job because there are several parts to change if it could be done properly at all.   3rd option is to buy the 3rd tier and make mods to use it as a 2nd--leaving me with a useless 2nd tier if so!

[drand48a]

I should add one thing about the 18880: it's solid enough for me, but not "like a rock" and I doubt it's as stable (side to side) as the Omega.

 

It would be, with a pair of diagonal cross-braces.  It comes with a detachable parallel brace that is completely useless and which immediately joined my scrap material heap.  Additional cross braces would be easy to add but a nuisance for gigging.

 

The 18880 is stable enough for me, even during boisterous palm smears, but nobody would call it a rock.  Other than a tiny side-to-side wobble, it is totally stable.  No chance of tipping over or a board flying off, barring a body check.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, drand48a said:

I should add one thing about the 18880: it's solid enough for me, but not "like a rock" and I doubt it's as stable (side to side) as the Omega.

 

It would be, with a pair of diagonal cross-braces.  It comes with a detachable parallel brace that is completely useless and which immediately joined my scrap material heap.  Additional cross braces would be easy to add but a nuisance for gigging.

 

The 18880 is stable enough for me, even during boisterous palm smears, but nobody would call it a rock.  Other than a tiny side-to-side wobble, it is totally stable.  No chance of tipping over or a board flying off, barring a body check.

 

I think the only time I've bothered with the cross-brace it comes with is when going with 3 tiers. Even then, it's not essential.

[NosPup]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Nice. Can you possibly post a source for the knobs? Or any relevant sizing info?

 

I likewise rarely want to change the height, but it would be nice to make it a quick job when needed. This (or the pin idea) would seem to take care of Bobadohshe's issue with the stand, and MathOfInsect's biggest issue with it as well.

 

Looks like i got them from the ole amazon. i bought in May 2017 so i've been using them for over 5 years without any problems.   Here's a link.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WW53R1A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

in case that link doesnt work:

uxcell 10 Pcs 32mm Dia M6 Thread Screw on Type Star Head Clamping Knob Grip

About this item

Product Name : Star Knob;Type : Screw On

Head Diameter : 32mm /1.3";Thread Diameter : 6mm/ 0.24"

Total Height : 25mm /1";Material : Metal,Plastic

Color : GoldTone,Black;Weight : 160g

Package Content : 10 x Star Knob

Specifications for this item

Brand Nameuxcell

Handle TypeKnob

MaterialMetal,Plastic

Model NumberUS-SA-AJD-85833

Part Numbera14122900ux0103

UNSPSC Code31161500

[EscapeRocks]

Love these stand threads.

 

What am I up to now...about 195 difference stands

 

[AnotherScott]

On 11/7/2022 at 11:31 AM, NosPup said:

Looks like i got them from the ole amazon. i bought in May 2017 so i've been using them for over 5 years without any problems. 

So you were using them with the existing bolts? Definitely more convenient than having to use the wrench, though even manipulating the bolts can be finicky, which is I guess why you were still finding the pin approach appealing. That might be the quickest, but I wonder about any propensity they may have for getting lost in transport, compared to something that screws in to lock it down.

[NosPup]

I'm about 99% certain I used the existing bolts.  It is slightly finicky to change beacuse the bolts want to fall out, but its nice to not be looking for a wrench.  You may also notice a slight "shift" how the leg sits inside the other telescoping  leg when using these knobs.  It feels a bit weird when first going in, but it is still totally solid when playing.  You can really crank these knobs in with just your hand, and they are definitely not coming loose when I tighten them.  I never had the faintest thought of going back to the regular nuts if thats valuable to anyone.

 

I am in agreement with some on this thread that I love love love this stand.  Its literally about 5 seconds to set up.   I also really like walking in, popping the stand open and "marking my territory" on stage.  I can get this thing in place even before the bass player drops his amp and goes to the bar...

[BluesB3]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:43 AM, NosPup said:

Thanks for the info. What did you use for the quick release pins?  I replaced with knobs on mine, but your idea is better !

I like this idea too. I'd use what racers call pip pins. Most of them have split rings where you could make little lanyards and attach them to the stand so they wouldn't get lost. 

www.mcmaster.com/pip-pins

[Jon May]

Just to chuck another combo in the mix; a recently purchased Quicklok WS-550 table stand with WS-562 accessory bar which braces the two front legs and is needed as an  attachment point for the Z-727 adjustable 2nd tier. I bought it for its clean lines and for the vertical adjustment of the upper tier as I wanted to experiment with close placement of two boards (M-Audio controller and Nord Electro 4) . As expected I still had to drill extra holes to get the 2 boards touching with their keys offset in a "2-manual organ" configuration. 4 inches was the closest I could get between the key surfaces.  In that format the top board occluded the Electro's controls, but access wasn't really needed as both boards were MIDI'd to an HX3 organ module and I had some Ocean Beach drawbars for the 'lower manual'. All this just to practise some Hammond tunes. 😄

For my usual gigs, 2 more holes allowed close yet practical placement when seated (forearms level playing the top board) and Electro control access. While I like the look of the stand there are some gripes...

• The table stand folds into a T-shape that is slightly awkward to stow in the car and carry into a gig.
• The accessory bar and upper tier arms are best kept connected together to speed assembly of the whole rig. They form another shape that is awkward for packing.
• The bar connects to the table stand legs underslung, so you have to support its weight while dropping in the threaded bolts from above. The bolts are long and take a bunch of turns before they pull up tight. Setup does take longer than a folding X-stand.
• I have the upper tier adjusted as far towards me (the player) as possible. This places maximum leverage on the horizontal arms supporting the keyboard. I wouldn't want to place anything heavier than a light controller up there.
• The stand breaks down into 2 parts (4 if the upper tier was disassembled further) plus 4 securing bolts. How long before I lose a bolt? Not as convenient as an X-stand with upper tier arms where everything folds into one flat unit and even the bolts are retained.

I searched as to whether this stand had been discussed before and found mention of a modification by TonySounds, but unfortunately the link is dead

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2373769/WS550_Mod_for_2nd_tier

If anyone has details they could repost...?  😘

 

Molto grazi... Jon

[AUSSIEKEYS]

9 hours ago, Jon May said:

 

 

If it helps I have one of these holding up my heavy Kawai Mp9500 (32 kg) piano.

 

Rock solid table never once felt flimsy. The shape of my piano dictates that the end legs should be slayed out left and right of your current position to stay inside the foot print of the piano. A wider keyboard may sit as you have it.

 

I dont gig with it but when folded i found it best to carry behind the front car seat against the seats back when i was testing if i might use it for gigging. 

 

I dont have the upper tiers

[AnotherScott]

On 11/6/2022 at 11:32 AM, drand48a said:

The height on the K&M 18880 can be easily adjusted by simply replacing 4 bolts with quick release pins.  At the gig, before opening it up all the way, place it upside down for easy access, pull the two pins on one leg, slide to where you've marked your fave spot for the purpose, and pop the pins back in.  Repeat for the other leg.

I tried the quick release pins... the problem is, then the legs are no longer locked in place for easy transport. The legs can "fall out the bottom" when you pick the stand up. It's not necessarily unworkable, but you at least have to be more careful transporting it, because the stand no longer automatically stays fully together regardless of how you grip or carry it, you have to be conscious of gripping/carrying it so that the two parts don't separate. It also makes it clumsier to adjust the width when it's on the ground because, well, basically, the bottom is no longer firmly connected to the top. I think it also affects stability because there's another point of possible motion, with the top just essentially "laying" on the bottom instead of being bolted into it. I'm open to suggestions to improve this...

[AnotherScott]

On 11/7/2022 at 11:31 AM, NosPup said:

Looks like i got them from the ole amazon. i bought in May 2017 so i've been using them for over 5 years without any problems.   Here's a link.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WW53R1A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Perfect, thanks! Better than I realized they would be. I could probably change the height in about a minute.

 

Each single big knob replaces three pieces... a nut, a washer, and a cap (each much easier to drop and maybe lose, too). Plus you don't need the wrench tool, which is then something you don't need to worry about losing, forgetting, misplacing, or even just taking the time to dig out and put back. And twisting a knob allows you to do in seconds what takes much longer to do with a wrench, between having to repeatedly put the wrench on, rotate, take the wrench off, spin your hand back, repeat, especially for non-mechanical me who does not do this kind of thing smoothly. I just lay the stand down (on its front or back, I don't remember which I did), and it's pretty quick and easy.

 

The key is to not lose track of which of the bolts are for the front pieces and which are for the back (I'm thinking I should put F and B on them), and for each of the two sides, remember to put both the front and back bolts in loosely before tightening either of them down with the knobs. The only thing awkward at all about this is, at least if you have fattish fingers, holding the front bolts in place as you attach the knobs is slightly awkward, unless there's some trick for this. But hardly insurmountable.