Yamaha YC88 and YC73

[16251]

So I schlepped over to the Valley today and played the CP88 at the Sherman Oaks GC. They had an open box model on the floor so it was convenient.....and they even add a sustain pedal.

 

I agree with Scott in that I prefer the ergonomics of the CP over the YC. The CP is a sleek looking keyboard. Again like yesterday I felt an instant connection to the sound. I liked more of the pianos sounds then on the YC but would probably still only use the CFX.

 

They had a new one in the box for a couple hundred more, full price, no discount during theses times. I was getting ready to plunk down my CC and then I had second thoughts-- it's not like I really "need" this right now. In one sense it is an upgrade, the action feels tighter then my seven yr. old CP4. But listening again with my Senn HD650s, while the CFX is more detailed and even through the higher register, it has a more digital sound and lacks the warmth of my CP4. It can be a bit jarring.

 

My Senns aren't speakers but they are pretty accurate and smooth. I might get used to it, I guess if I didn't I could return within the 45 day period. Remembering my time with the P-515, I still prefer it over the CP88 but it's way less practical for gigging. And I already have the best digital for home, so why would I need the P515.

 

I might just hold off for now. I have a major expenditure coming up next month on my D. Like a 100K tune up. The hammers need filing and that will require him taking the action to his shop. This is a highly labor intensive job involving about three days in his shop and then time at my house tweaking the regulation some more. He estimated the cost to be around $3500. But it will breath new life into my piano which has been getting a bit too bright and the action too loose. I can tell because the action on my new AG N3X feels tighter. After 15 years and 2-3 hours everyday, it's a lot of hours.

 

Back to the CP88-- I can get it at anytime, it will probably be around in stock for at least another year. Again it's super nice, I liked it but not sure I need it having the CP4 and not a ton of gigs I'm doing.

 

Since piano is your focus, this latest gas from you has confused me a little. The YC and CP seem like overkill for just piano and you already own a DP, that might be old, but one you like very much. I was thinking how interesting your posts would of been if you ended up gassing up on a new Nord Grand.

[confidence]

That's what I thought too. Can't see why you'd want to get a CP88 when you already have the CP4, unless it's for the extra onboard controllers (which, given your stated approach to the instrument as a "pure" acoustic piano replacement, I suspect it isn't). I'd probably spend the money on a completely different brand of stage piano so you have options.

[ElmerJFudd]

Now, Dave. You have the D and the Avant Grande. And the CP4.

Do you really 'need' another piano?

[Kurt W]

Seems you got yourself a harem Dave.

[Al Quinn]

and you already own a DP, that might be old, but one you like very much.

 

Can't see why you'd want to get a CP88 when you already have the CP4.

You guys sound like my wife.

I've been following this thread to find out if I "need" to upgrade my CP4 to a CP88. Fortunately, it lead to where I had hoped!

[allan_evett]

and you already own a DP, that might be old, but one you like very much.

 

Can't see why you'd want to get a CP88 when you already have the CP4.

You guys sound like my wife.

I've been following this thread to find out if I "need" to upgrade my CP4 to a CP88. Fortunately, it lead to where I had hoped!

 

 

If performing on piano is the main purpose, then I agree. A CP4 was my stage 88, 2013-2015; I came back around to Yamaha for that a few months ago. While I find the additional sounds and features in the YC88 significant (over those in the CP4), the soul and playability of the piano tones between the YC/CP88 and CP4 is highly similar. I found the piano to be just as inspiring in the CP4.

[Charleston]

 

But listening again with my Senn HD650s, while the CFX is more detailed and even through the higher register, it has a more digital sound and lacks the warmth of my CP4. It can be a bit jarring.

 

Does the tone knob or eq warm it up? Or does that screw with the overall sound too much?

[RandyFF]

Dave, was surprised to read this being the CP88 is a piano centric board. From a review from Piano Dreamers:

 

"It"s worth noting that the CP88 does not come with Virtual Resonance Modeling (VRM) as featured on the Yamaha P-515 and the premium Clavinova line.

This means you don"t get the detailed simulations of string resonance and pedal noise (though damper resonance can be toggled). This clearly gears the CP-series towards stage-use, in which minute details aren"t as important."

 

Is this noticeable to you? I assume the CP4 has string resonance.

[ElmerJFudd]

Hey Randy. There are two types of string resonance fx on some newer digital pianos.

Damper resonance - which the CP88 has, is when you hold the sustain/damper pedal down and the notes you play cause lots of other strings to resonate (more softly) and blend into the sustained sound of the whole instrument.

Then theres the type of string resonance which the CP88 doesn"t have, which is much more subtle. This is when you have a note or more held down (so their damper"s are lifted) and any new notes you play cause the strings of the keys you have down to resonate softly. It"s pretty cool to see demonstrated but it"s really subtle. And I can"t off the top of my head think of a piece of music that calls for the technique. An example would be - hold down a chord high on the keyboard but don"t actually let this strings make a sound (no pedal). Then make a short fff bang down low on the keyboard and listen to see if you can hear the other higher up open strings resonating softly. Or opposite. Hold down a silent chord in the left hand in the middle of the keyboard and play short percussive notes up high and listen for the strings your holding in the left to ring.

 

 

So, no. I"d say it"s not a deal breaker on a digital piano. In solo piano playing it may ad some ambient realism - but turning either string resonance fx up too high makes playing muddy and actually unrealistic. The key is to use them sparingly. Neither are particularly desirable to hear loudly playing with a band if you want clarity.

 

Both types are demonstrated and turned up so you can hear them in this video on the Kurzweil Forte.

 

[video:youtube]

[AnotherScott]

Then theres the type of string resonance which the CP88 doesn"t have, which is much more subtle. This is when you have a note or more held down (so their damper"s are lifted) and any new notes you play cause the strings of the keys you have down to resonate softly. It"s pretty cool to see demonstrated but it"s really subtle. And I can"t off the top of my head think of a piece of music that calls for the technique. An example would be - hold down a chord high on the keyboard but don"t actually let this strings make a sound (no pedal). Then make a short fff bang down low on the keyboard and listen to see if you can hear the other higher up open strings resonating softly. Or opposite. Hold down a silent chord in the left hand in the middle of the keyboard and play short percussive notes up high and listen for the strings your holding in the left to ring.

Your explanation is correct, and your examples show a way to easily demonstrate whether or not a keyboard implements this effect... but while that technique demonstrates how it works, it does not demonstrate the benefit.

 

The first type of resonance which you described is duplicating the effect of the fact that a note sounds different when struck with the pedal down than with the pedal up, because all the undamped strings that are harmonically related to the key you play will resonate. This second type of resonance provides exactly the same benefit, except it works when the pedal is up instead of when the pedal is down, the ramifications of which are that instead of EVERY harmonically related note resonating when you strike a key (as when ALL strings are undamped), only SOME harmonically related notes will resonate... specifically, the ones that you are manually holding down, which are the only ones with their dampers lifted.

 

So the benefit is not about being able to make notes resonate when you play a "silent note", that's pretty much just a parlor trick, albeit one that serves as a conceptual demonstration. The real benefit is to increase authenticity as you play when you don't have the sustain pedal down. Just as striking middle C alone with the pedal down sounds different than when you strike middle C alone with the pedal up (because with pedal down, other harmonically related strings resonate), it is equally true that, with the pedal up, striking middle C alone sounds different than when you strike middle C while holding some chord with other hand, because there will be resonances created by any note in that chord that could be "excited" by the strike of the middle C.

[Al Quinn]

Continuing to hold a note that has already sounded so that its strings can be sympathetically vibrated by other notes is of great important when playing an acoustic piano. It's an important technique that makes the piano sound alive. As other notes are played the held note picks up more energy and grows / sustains. Also, the held note's energy is not diminished by pedal changes so it's a great way to make a melody sing as the accompaniment does its own independent / supportive thing. I realize a lot of people know this but there are also a lot of people who don't so I thought it was worth elaborating on.

[ElmerJFudd]

Prior to, or maybe around the same time as they developed modeled string resonance, piano libraries began including pedal up and pedal down samples. One or the other sample gets triggered depending on the pedal position. Some even include half damper samples (Yamaha did this on the S90ES and it requires their pedal to catch the half damper position data).

 

We do an awful lot of damper up and down piano playing. It"s very much a part of the rep in most styles. And then there"s times when we don"t use pedal at all.

 

I was listening to some WBGO this morning and heard a track where I felt you could really hear the details of all variety of pedal position and string resonance even when playing with a trio. I"m assuming it"s the real thing, acoustic piano. I hear it, I know you all do. Do all music listeners, or even many or most? I would be surprised if that were true. But if it impresses us on a digital and helps us forget its a computer. I"m all for it.

 

Rachel Z - Monk"s Other Woman

 

[video:youtube]

[ElmerJFudd]

On CP4 vs CP88 am I reading the specs correctly.

The CP4 does not include modeled damper or string resonance. I don"t see it as an insert effect either.

The CP88"s modeled damper resonance is an insert effect.

 

Since we are seeing this feature on higher end workstations like the Forte. How long until Yamaha puts both in a CP? Well, I guess they need to do that slowly to give reason to upgrade yet again.

[RandyFF]

Elmer, Al and Scott, thanks for the explanation, didn't know the difference between damper and string resonance.

 

On my ES920, I really love the damper resonance on the higher tinkly notes, it adds a lot of shimmer that is distinct from reverb.

[octa]

I see what y"all mean about the leslie problem now. Played with 2 different acts here the other night & I use the iPad"s B-3X & VTines a good bit as they sound great. Well at sound check the iPad was at 90%+ battery life & things were sounding pretty good. This was a grand reopening, so the PA hadn"t been used in awhile. Kick drum check alone took 45 minutes or so. After sound check I unplug iPad & walk around with it for a couple hours. We hit the stage & battery life is at 4% ! So I have the flick of the switch, use YC88 organ backup plan at least. They had me up pretty loud in monitors, which were too trebly but could hear well at least. With this monitor EQ setting, leslie was beyond cringe-worthy! Would work well in a horror movie for you movie soundtrack folks, heh. Luckily, I live pretty close by so after first set, I rushed home & got iPad charger & HDMI apple connector. (I use a discrete usb C to printer port USB cable usually & it works well). I made it back just in time for opening notes of 2nd band & hooked it all up and had a fun show. CFX did the job & Wurlitzer Warm was great. Also enjoyed the action! Much more my style than Nord Stage 3"s Fatar.

 

Lessons learned: 1) AUM + virtual instruments will drain battery fast, close app when not in use 2) Bring iPad charger to gig! 3) bring preamp or mixer for K12"s, they were practically inaudible compared to monitors, even with +6 dB engaged on YC88.

[Doerfler]

Kick drum check alone took 45 minutes or so.

 

 

Been dealing with this nonsense for over 40 years

[Tomdwilsonjr]

So are you saying that the 73 and 88 have the same action?  Someone at Sweetwater told me the 73 was somewhere between the Waterfall and Hammer Action. 

[AnotherScott]

73 and 88 both have hammer action, but they are different hammer actions.

[CyberGene]

As I posted in the other thread, I have a YC73 on order at Thomann but it's backordered and will arrive at Thomann on May 31st, however a B-stock unit (that is €180 off the regular price) just appeared and I immediately swapped it with the other (already paid) order and so I will have an even cheaper YC73 next week, that's pretty lucky for me 🥳

[AnotherScott]

I (like a number of others here) like a shallow bottom board, so that the keys from the board above are close to the keys of the bottom board. Somehow, it just seems more comfortable to play, plus it also helps cut down on stage footprint. One issue I had with the YC as a bottom board is that it has a somewhat deep control surface that seemingly needs to stay exposed.

 

Some of you may remember that I posted about how, when I was looking at using the Vox Continental as a bottom, my idea was to take advantage of all those controls for pre-gig sound setup, but to keep them covered by the top board at the gig, basically leaving me only access to calling up my presets... which is okay because, for a bottom board on most gigs, all I need to do is call up from about 16 preset sounds.

 

Well, as an outgrowth of the recent conversation about the new Yamaha CK, and my thoughts about whether such an approach could work on that board, I realized... I bet this trick could work on the YC73. Sure enough, this looks like it could work pretty well. Here's a "normal" config on the left (I probably could have gotten it a tad closer), and on the right, the top board pulled forward so as to turn the YC73 into a pretty "shallow" board, basically cutting the depth of the YC's control panel roughly in half:

 

 

I'm not saying I'd always use it this way, there are times I'd want more navigational ability than this (and certainly again for pre-gig sound setups), but often, for a bottom, this still probably gives me all the functionality I need. It gives me quick access to 16 sounds (some of which are sets of 2 or 3 sounds) in two banks of 8. I still have access to on-off switches for the different parts (for those Live Sets that do contain multiple sounds), and the drawbar/rotary control for the organs (it may not look like it, but there is full drawbar access there, because I left just enough room to get my fingers above the drawbars in their rear-most position), and I even still have the ability to turn splits on and off (and switch octaves of parts when I do). With my little cheat sheet of sounds you see taped there, I don't need to see the screen at all. The chart tells me which button gets me which sounds, for the first two banks of 8. Since there's no way to see the display, I came up with this little trick: The first bank has no organs. For the second bank, I always have organ enabled, even if volume is at zero. That way I can tell whether I'm in bank 1 or bank 2 by looking at the indicator light for the organ on-off switch (seen at the left edge of the pictures above). This is needed because, while I have access to the bank up and down buttons to go back and forth between my two sets of 8 Live Sets, without seeing the screen, I can't tell which of the two banks is currently active, i.e. which set of 8 sounds is currently under the buttons, so this fixes that.

 

I'm not necessarily committed to this approach (still going back and forth about keeping the YC73), but it's an interesting alternate way of looking at how the board can be used... even with the display concealed, and would actually seem to let me use it more satisfyingly in more scenarios.

[Mighty Motif Max]

New OS has dropped, V 1.3. The Hamburg Grand has made it to the YC series, as well as the Felt Piano, CP80, and new FM patches, among other improvements.

 

 

 

[Outkaster]

The kid in that video has good instincts.

[Dave Number Four]

I'm using a numa compact 2x as a top tier controller with my yc88, connected by 5 pin midi. I use various YC live sets with the YC's AP or EP controlled by the YC keys, and YC organ/clav/synth sounds controlled by the nc2x keys.

 

So far, so good. But it seems that when I have the YC's External Keyboard setting for the organ or clav sound set to ExtOnly, it also makes the YC stop paying attention to the YC expression pedal inputs for that sound, regardless of the Foot Controller and Receive SW settings in the YC.

 

For organ, I can use an expression pedal in the NC2x's pedal inputs as a workaround, and it does control the swelling of the organ, but the range seems much jumpier than when I use the YC's pedal inputs. Could be the NC2x's midi behaving weirdly in terms of what values it's sending, although I haven't had a chance to investigate.

 

For clav with pedal wah, I can't seem to make it work at all, since the NC2x doesn't send the midi CC the YC expects for controlling wah (and again the YC pedal inputs do nothing with the sound set to ExtOnly). So I'm stuck playing clav in the bottom board if I want pedal wah.

 

Just checking if I'm missing something here. Thanks

[CHarrell]

Hi @Outkaster! I've seen you sing the praises of the YC multiple times, and I will soon be a YC owner myself. I was curious, what have you found to be the best way to navigate the different sounds? I used to own the CP, where if you wanted a clav you'd just turn on the E Piano section and turn the knob to "Clav", but in the YC, it's in a menu. Is there a nice and easy way to quickly navigate to sounds that are "buried" in a certain voice category?

[JFN]

5 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Hi @Outkaster! I've seen you sing the praises of the YC multiple times, and I will soon be a YC owner myself. I was curious, what have you found to be the best way to navigate the different sounds? I used to own the CP, where if you wanted a clav you'd just turn on the E Piano section and turn the knob to "Clav", but in the YC, it's in a menu. Is there a nice and easy way to quickly navigate to sounds that are "buried" in a certain voice category?

 

I bought the John Melas librarian software which makes it easy to keep organized. I have many custom built Live Sets and like to organize them groups (all APs together, all organs together, etc) and the software makes this relatively simple. It also made it easy to back up the factory Live Sets, delete the ones I don't want, and make room for my stuff.

 

John

[CHarrell]

Thanks for the response! I briefly had a YC summer 2021, but I don't remember all of the details. Can you assign a different speaker/amp for each part? (Rtr A for Organ, Lead for Keys A, etc)?

[JFN]

21 hours ago, CHarrell said:

Thanks for the response! I briefly had a YC summer 2021, but I don't remember all of the details. Can you assign a different speaker/amp for each part? (Rtr A for Organ, Lead for Keys A, etc)?

 

The amp sim that is the front panel (Rtr A, B, Case, etc.) can be assigned to one part only. However, the Keys A and B effect slots have amp sims, distortion, and rotor effect you can select.

 

John

[Outkaster]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:20 PM, CHarrell said:

Hi @Outkaster! I've seen you sing the praises of the YC multiple times, and I will soon be a YC owner myself. I was curious, what have you found to be the best way to navigate the different sounds? I used to own the CP, where if you wanted a clav you'd just turn on the E Piano section and turn the knob to "Clav", but in the YC, it's in a menu. Is there a nice and easy way to quickly navigate to sounds that are "buried" in a certain voice category?

 

 I use close to 10 sounds. They are all on the favorites list.

[kenheeter]

Favorites list?

 

[drawback]

Live Set