Piano sounds muddy through QSC K10

[aluk]

Hi all,

 

I normally play through headphones (Sennheiser HD598). I recently started rehearsing with a band, something that is new to me. Our rehearsal space is a small village hall, similar to a small school gym - very echoey with hard surfaces all around.

 

I think my sound is awful!

 

I have a new QSC K10 on a tripod stand plugged into a Yamaha P90 stage piano. I am just using the right hand channel into the K10 to avoid the phase cancelling effects of a stereo feed into a single speaker. Only my keyboard goes through the K10. The guitar, bass, and vocals all have their own amps & speakers.

 

Playing simple triads for example in the middle 2 octaves sounds very muddy to me. Chords which sound fine when playing along with a song through headphones sound a jumbled mess when amplified along with the rest of the band. Playing up in the top octave is suddenly overpowering and very loud.

 

Some notes (E1, and every octave above) resonate in the room.

 

I also have Pianoteq Stage which I have tried in mono mode instead of the P90 sound. This is much better, although I'm not sure which preset to go for. I have tried turning all the reverb, delay, and eq off which helps.

 

Next time I am thinking of trying to run Pianoteq through Ableton Live with an EQ8 cutting out the room resonances. I will also change my playing and play less.

 

I do have 2 K10s, but have only taken 1 to rehearsal so far. I assume 2 would not change things dramatically?

 

At home I have used REW in the past to measure the response of a room for subwoofer placement. As I don't have the experience in live sound should I try running REW in the rehearsal room and then adjusting the EQ8 as best I can for a flatter response?

 

Are there any other things I should be looking to do to help improve the sound? Are these problems normal when going from headphones to amplified speakers? Should I get an external eq for example?

 

I know there is a huge amount of knowledge on this board, so I'm sorry for the basic questions. I've been reading avidly - just looking for some pointers to improve the sound. Thanks!

[mate stubb]

EQ is your friend. If you are new to playing thru speakers in a room and with other instruments, and expect it to sound like headphones, you are going to be upset.

 

Live sound is a completely different thing. Welcome to the struggle, we all deal with it.

[J. Dan]

Is the k10 just for your own monitoring or does it need to cover a larger area? I ask because the sound is very different off axis than on axis and I find it works best on the floor in wedge style positioned to be pointed at my head. When on stage with subs I set to "ext sub" to get rid of excessive lows. If you don't have lows coming from anywhere else you probably want to keep it flat. By all means, avoid the bass boost setting.

[bennyray]

Keyboards almost always sound better through headphones. You could have been spoiled by the stereo sound from the headphones. The echo from a venue like what you explained is always a pain. Less effects on pianos in this kind of environment is usually better. Running in stereo is always better for me but could be opinionated of course. I would try using the 2 K10's instead of one. The acoustics of a venue like that is always troubling. Trial and error to see what works best for you. Find another rehearsal place would be the best idea if possible.

[aluk]

Yes, live sound is new to me. I've had a passing interest in it for many years, but never had a reason to learn about it until joining this band. Looking forward to the struggle :-)

 

We're all new to playing as a band, so practically I'd expect to need to use the K10(s) as both PA and monitor in small areas to start with.

 

I have it set as flat, not Deep. I tried Deep, but it bloomed massively.

 

I am intending to experiment with EQ over the next few rehearsals. Am I on the right track to keep this all in software using Ableton and Pianoteq? Or should I be aiming for a different set of tools? I have not bought Live yet, but would need Standard for the EQ8 plugin.

[dongna]

I do have 2 K10s, but have only taken 1 to rehearsal so far. I assume 2 would not change things dramatically?

I would say this is NOT a valid assumption. A modern digital piano will sound very much better in stereo than in mono.

[Bill H.]

^^ Yeah almost certainly you will do better with both K10s. Check out the recent Dave Ferris "Stereo Is So Much Better" thread.

 

Muddy mids and a top octave taking your head off (which you have mentioned) are indicative of a right only feed. L+R in stereo should help, as well as give you more of the experience you hear at home.

 

If you are relying on your K10s for getting your piano out front, putting your cabs on stands will help. You want to keep them as far away from reflective surfaces as possible. But don't put them so high that all you hear from your playing position are the 10s.

 

Highly reverberant spaces are next to impossible to get a good sound out of, so you can't expect miracles. But you can make things better. Best of luck!

 

 

[OB Dave]

As Moe stated, the struggle is real. As you poke around the older threads on this forum, you'll see that a great many of them have to do with amplification. It's interesting that the top octave is overbearing in your setup. Seems a lot of people have problems with the top octave running out of gas on various pianos. Thats currently the issue with mine (Nord Stage 2 / K10s)

 

If anything, I find that the K10 can be a bit tubby on the bottom end and often need to roll off the low end a tad. But as you will soon discover, every room sounds different, and even the same room can sound different from one day to the next.

 

I'm not familiar with the P90 but it appears there aren't any EQ controls apart from a single mellow/bright slider. There's certainly no harm in analyzing your setup in REW, though I'm not sure what you'd do with the information given the limited EQ options available on the P90. Oh, but you should make sure that your K10s are set to flat and not vocal boost. There's a switch for this on the back.

 

There's also no downside to experimenting with EQ in your Pianoteq/Ableton/EQ8.

 

I definitely recommend you try setting up in stereo. It does make a big difference. I gig weekly with a pair of K10s - one on each side of me, and I find that being immersed in a stereo sound field, among other things helps me play at a lower stage volume, and that may help your situation out as well.

 

Now that you've fallen down the rabbit hole, plan to spend the rest of your lifetime chasing The Sound.

[Reezekeys]

+1 on trying stereo. Also, use your software piano, throw a parametric EQ on it, and notch a little at around 200Hz with not too much Q. I'm pretty sure you'll like the sound a lot more.

[JimboKeys]

You might also try one of these:

dbx goRack

Blowout sale for $30, what can you lose.

The "De-mud" EQ preset may be just what you need.

 

- Jimbo

[aronnelson]

> I am just using the right hand channel into the K10 to avoid the phase cancelling effects of a stereo feed into a single speaker.

 

Who told you to do that? Use the left MONO output into the K10.

 

[midiotlv]

The culprit may be your P90, itself. I had a P90 for many years, and it turns out there really isn't a true mono sampled piano in it. Even if you just run out of the left/mono output, you'll still hear phase cancellation going on. Check-out the many posts about yamaha stage pianos and the Bose L1 systems at the Bose forums (many folks finding out the hard way that many keyboards (especially the P90) don't have true mono-sampled pianos). There have been many 'tricks' discussed to improve the sound (your trick about running out of the right output is one of them).

 

If you are using Pianoteq (I also use that as my go-to live piano), then you should be in luck because there is a monophonic output option. It still doesn't sound as great as the stereo goodness in the headphones or through stereo monitors, but at least you won't have the nasty phasing issues. (Also, to my ears, Pianoteq sounds light years better than the P90 pianos).

 

Because I believe you source of your issue is the P90 sample set itself, I think if you bring a second K10 you'll notice quite a difference (i.e. running in stereo). However, you can still get great mono pianos out of Pianoteq, so turn down that Yamaha. Note: I've noticed that the newer stage pianos from Yamaha have mono piano samples, so maybe they've addressed this with their latest gear.

[Doerfler]

Now that you've fallen down the rabbit hole, plan to spend the rest of your lifetime chasing The Sound.

 

OB Dave QFT

[Doerfler]

You might also try one of these:

dbx goRack

Blowout sale for $30, what can you lose.

The "De-mud" EQ preset may be just what you need.

 

- Jimbo

 

took your advice, dude. Less that a case of beer, I'm sure I'll find a use for it somewhere.

[DulceLabs.com]

Hey there and welcome to the Keyboard Corner! Good for you getting in with a band and starting to play out.

 

Only thing I have to add is remember that this is just your rehearsal space and where you actually perform will require different EQ settings, etc. So keeping track of your settings is great for rehearsal, but getting good at adjusting quickly to a new venue is a valuable skill to learn.

 

One other thing: The piano sound that sounds great playing solo though headphones may not be the best one to play with a full band, so don't be afraid to stray from your "go to" piano tone. Oftentimes the ones that sound thin playing solo will actually sound better when mixed with the full band.

 

And yes two speakers are better than one, but make sure you try both mono and stereo versions of the piano sound. Some digital pianos sound better live in mono.

 

Ohm and remember to have fun!

[cphollis]

Hi Aluk. Playing in a gym-like room with hard reflective surfaces is very hard to make sound reasonable.

 

The advice here is what I'd say as well:

 

- stereo much better than mono (have a pair of K10s)

- EQ your sound (have a goRack)

- stay away from additional reverb effects, you already have plenty!

- if you're playing small gigs and no sound guy, vocals should be the only thing running through the PA.

 

Set reasonable expectations:

- it'll never sound like it does through headphones unless you're willing to spend stupid money, and then it only gets closer

- only so much you can do with reflective surfaces like that

- you've started a long learning curve

- smile and enjoy the ride.

 

Best of luck!

[brenner13]

I run both R&L into my QSC and mono out of it to the JBL, and also stereo out of the QSC to FOH. They must do something different with the amplification because I don't notice the phasing as I I've experienced with other single speakers.

However, I'll pipe with the others and wonder if running through both K10's will improve the sound to you?

[El Lobo]

Yes. Use both K10's. It's a completely different set of sound problems.

Also put them on stands or poles off the floor but lower than your head.

And you have to experiment to find the best piano sound in a live band.

It almost certainly is NOT the one that sounds best to you while playing solo through headphones.

[TomKittel]

My rule of thumb for playing piano in a band: turn down the bass EQ of the piano as much as you can. This EQ setting sounds shitty when playin' alone but works wonders in a band setting.

[ITGITC]

 

Mentioned here before, changing the polarity between the woofer and compression driver really helped improve the sound of my K10s.

 

Try the suggestions above first.

 

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays.

 

Tom

 

[Delaware Dave]

I just spent the weekend running my Gemini module's VB3 organ through my EV speaker and through my old "lo-fi" KB300 keyboard amp. I found for organ VB3 sounded better through the KB300 while the piano sounds better through the EV speaker. As the horn on my KB300 is not as bright it removes upper octave shrillness. I tried setting the treble on my mixer to -12db for the organ channel it helps mellow out the EV speaker but for organ the KB300 just sounds better. So as others have mentioned above it is a constant struggle in getting live music to sound correctly. We also swapped guitar player positions this weekend, so I got a different amp in my ear and that 'noise' next to me is now different than in the past and just introduced another variable into the equation.

[I-missRichardTee]

Mentioned here before, changing the polarity between the woofer and compression driver really helped improve the sound of my K10s.

 

Try the suggestions above first.

 

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays.

 

Tom

 

Merry Christmas to you too

 

I looked over the above threads and cannot find the reference to reversing polarity between the woofer and the compression driver on K10. Might you ahem, amplify on that idea? Thank you.

 

[Delaware Dave]

There is not much to amplify; his comment was that he switched the phasing (swapped the negative and positive inputs that go to the speakers on the K10) and he got a more pleasant sound (to his ears).

[Reezekeys]

> I am just using the right hand channel into the K10 to avoid the phase cancelling effects of a stereo feed into a single speaker.

 

Who told you to do that? Use the left MONO output into the K10.

I'm pretty sure the "L/MONO" output sums both the left and right channels when it's used by itself. So phases will potentially be cancelled just inside the keyboard instead of the sound board or amp.

[Tusker]

I looked over the above threads and cannot find the reference to reversing polarity between the woofer and the compression driver on K10.

 

Here is the thread: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2734439/Re_My_K10_adventure

 

but it's a deep dive and you might just go with the summary from Delaware Dan.

[cphollis]

The mod is a good one. However, I don't think it's going to cure OP's issues

[aluk]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

I've been playing with the Pianoteq EQ3 today, and by rolling off the bass and bringing down 200Hz, things sound much better. This is just at home though. I may do the polarity change at some point, but I think I should walk before I run!

 

I have 3 questions

 

1. How do you quickly sound check a new venue with minimum annoyance? Do you just play something and see how it sounds? Or would you, for example, play a couple of scales followed by a few ascending chords to see where the room resonances lie, and how muddy it is? Or something else?

 

2. If I use Pianoteq and/or Ableton then I need a way of changing volume and patches easily. How do you all do this? I have seen the Korg Nanopad2 or the Akai LPD8 which look like they would do the job.

 

3. What Pianoteq presets do you go-to for live playing either solo or with a band? Do you change your piano type depending on whether you are in mono or stereo, or do you just set the output to Mono?

 

 

[dougb415]

Please please please try a stereo rig for your next rehearsal. It makes such a huge difference!

[Markay]

 

2. If I use Pianoteq and/or Ableton then I need a way of changing volume and patches easily. How do you all do this? I have seen the Korg Nanopad2 or the Akai LPD8 which look like they would do the job.

 

3. What Pianoteq presets do you go-to for live playing either solo or with a band? Do you change your piano type depending on whether you are in mono or stereo, or do you just set the output to Mono?

 

In answer to 2. you would use host software designed for Live use like Cantabile, for Windows or MainStage for Mac or possibly Ableton.

 

Load Pianoteq as a plugin in Ableton, connect the midi out from your keyboard to your computer and map the keyboard controls of your choice to patch change and volume in Ableton.

 

3. The simplest way is to set Pianoteq to mono. I use Pianoteq standard and there are extensive EQ tuning options available in Pianoteq. There isn't a "best" preset. If you are playing rock with guitars the detail is going to get lost. If you a doing a solo jazz gig then whichever one you think sounds best, tweaked the way you like it.

 

I use different personalised presets for each song, depending on how exposed the piano is in that song.

[BigJPatton]

It's really hard to get a good acoustic piano sound out of a powered speaker to begin with, but the K10 is exceptionally bad at this. I use a small, portable Mackie mixer and it helps a lot, not just because of the EQ but the line signal gets a good quality boost as well.