Another B3 technique question

[Dr88s]

There's no good video of Gregg playing this during Santana's heyday, but there is nice footage of his organ player at Montreux a few years ago.

 

At 11:16, he starts rhythmically pounding out the A5 chord with both hands.

Reference video:

 

Try as I might, I can't figure out the movement / coordination to do this on my clone wheel (waterfall action) and have that same sweet effect.

 

Any suggestions?

[Threadslayer]

"This video contains content from Eagle Rock. It is not available in your country."

[Dr88s]

"This video contains content from Eagle Rock. It is not available in your country."

 

Wow. I am really not used to ANY content being available in Canada but not the US!

 

Here's another copy of the same video, part starts at 10:53. I presume that this one will be blocked for you as well, but just in case:

http://youtu.be/NQbjUZmg1Vg

 

There's no other video I can find showing the organ players' hands. Musically, Gregg plays this part at 4:44 of the studio recording. It's an integral part of the solo that I just can't replicate

 

 

[CEB]

Yep not available. I and several other guys here I am sure play that solo. I will check it out. 4:44 of Soul Sacrifice you say?

[CEB]

Oh that. You have to spank it...... seriously.

 

It is a two handed slaping technique. You need to learn this it a a part of rock organ vernacular. A lot of times the left hand notes are not relavant. I will often like slap a right hand chord then answer it by slapping the black keys over the right hand chord area. Soul Sacrifice is not this Soul Sacrifice the left is just slapping the left portion of the chord. There has to be a video somewhere. I mean everything is on YouTube.

 

PS There are a lot of slapping on the Hammond. With the right touch and right use of the expression pedal you can play the organ like a set of congas. I think a lot of guys call it conga slapping.

[Dr88s]

Yep not available. I and several other guys here I am sure play that solo. I will check it out. 4:44 of Soul Sacrifice you say?

 

Yes, I say.

 

The staccato repeated A5 chord towards the end of the solo. Seems easy enough but I just can't replicate it.

[Dr88s]

Oh that. You have to spank it...... seriously.

 

It is a two handed slaping technique. You need to learn this it a a part of rock organ vernacular. a lot of time the left hand notes are not relavant. I will often like slap a right hand chord then answer it by slapping the black keys over the right hand chord area. Soul Sacrifice is not this Sould sacrifice the left is just slap the left portion of the chord. There has to be a video somewhere. I mean everything is on YouTube.

 

So that was my impression also, and I have tried exactly what you described. Perhaps I am not slapping fast enough because the black keys above the A chord actually sound and are dissonant rather than just giving the percussive pop. Is it possible to slap the same keys with both the right and left hands accurately?

[CEB]

What is your registration? Start with something like 8888000088, C/V set to C3, no Perc.

 

And don't slap black keys. Slap white keys below the right hand. The black keys is just one of my tricks.

 

Most the time if I have an organ ride I just play stuff unless it is something iconic like Oye or Soul Sacrifice or Whiter Shade of Pale, Evil Ways, etc.... Soul Sacrifice is one of those songs I could never improvise anything that sounded good. The original Rolle parts just sounded right.

[CEB]

Start Around 5:20

 

[video:youtube]

[Dr88s]

What is your registration?

 

And don't slap black keys. Slap white keys below the right hand. The black keys is just one of my tricks.

 

Not home right now. Will answer when I am in front of my board.

 

What do you mean by 'below' the right hand? As in, between my (retreating) right hand and the keys, or closer to my body than where I'm striking the white keys?

 

 

 

[JB Sherry]

That video really shows it. Notice the slaps are in the mid-range, way lower then the right-hand chords. Playing them in the low and mid-range will give you more what you want. Also, Distortion can help blend those notes. On a real hammond and leslie, you can gain-stage it so that even with the pedal to the metal, a single note sounds pretty clean, 2 notes get's a little dirty, and more than to or notes in the low end, really push the distortion.

 

Per that other thread about "Santana can't play jazz", this is a good example of him not building a solo well.

 

I can't decide if that's Pat Metheny on drums or the alien love-child of Pat Metheny and Stevie Winwood.

 

 

[bennyray]

What's up with all this spanking and slapping going on? Got me really thinking now? Oh you mean the keys MMM MMM MMM

[Dr88s]

Start Around 5:20

 

[video:youtube]

 

Great find! And among my family and friends I am always the guy who can find anything on YouTube

 

Now I totally get what you are saying by 'below' the right hand. Yeesh. I can be dense sometimes.

 

What's the ratio of right-hand to left hand? Is it 1:1 or 2:1?

[Sven Golly]

One thing that a lot of people fail to mention.

 

One of the reasons this type of thing works on the actual instrument, but not on any of the clones, is that the triggering of the 9 tonewheels occurs separately across the travel of the keys, so if you don't press the key fully, you won't hear all 9 tonewheels (in a drawbar setting where all 9 are active, in this discussion). So a light slap/tap will sound different for drawbar setting 888888888 than a full press will. The sound also can be different from key to key, depending on how the bus bars are connected.

 

So there are times when you just cannot replicate certain sounds on a clone.

[Dr88s]

Thanks Sven. I never knew that. I hope I can approximate something on the Nord. Otherwise it'd be so anticlimactic.

[Sven Golly]

Also, to add, the video linked by the OP (but unseen by those of you south of the border ) is NOT the same conga-slapping technique shown in the later video. I wouldn't describe it as "pounding" either. It's a much more restrained chord-altering technique, but with the hands closer together, and specific notes being played, instead of a palm-slap of numerous adjacent keys...

[Sven Golly]

Thanks Sven. I never knew that. I hope I can approximate something on the Nord. Otherwise it'd be so anticlimactic.

 

Very light, and very short duration notes, whether slapping or cleanly playing them, is the key. Think like a percussionist either way, it'll get you far closer to your goal.... and perhaps close enough to satisfy, without needing to sacrifice your soul.

[Josh Paxton]

One thing that a lot of people fail to mention.

 

One of the reasons this type of thing works on the actual instrument, but not on any of the clones, is that the triggering of the 9 tonewheels occurs separately across the travel of the keys, so if you don't press the key fully, you won't hear all 9 tonewheels (in a drawbar setting where all 9 are active, in this discussion).

 

This is one of the things I liked about the multi-contact system in the new XK5. I realized I was taking advantage of that feature and digging it without consciously realizing why, until it was pointed out to me, and I said "Holy crap, you're right." Of course I am a paid Hammond shill, so...

 

What he's playing in the video CEB posted (I can't see the original either) is a 3-against-4 pattern that you can think of as: right-hand lowered chord, right-hand main chord, left-hand slap. What I mean by "lowered" is that some or all of the notes in the chord are lowered by a half step, and the choice of which ones are lowered has way more to do with the physical layout of the keys than with any harmonic considerations. In the clip it seems like the main chord he's playing is an Am triad with the A on the top, and I think the only note he's lowering is the E, to an Eb. So he's playing (from the bottom up) C-Eb-A, then C-E-A, then a left-hand slap.

[Baldwin Funster]

Drummer is a young Michael Shrieve.

[bourniplus]

As Funkkeystuff said, the key is the "3 against 4". That is, you play chords on sixteenth notes but in groups of 3: RIGHT-RIGHT-LEFT and keep this going... eventually the pattern will repeat every third bar! The "lowered chord" is a nice trick as well but it's not in the original video you posted.

 

And as Sven said, the multi-contact thing will affect how this sounds, especially the left-hand slap.

[Baldwin Funster]

Drummers would call that a paradiddle. Or at least half of one. Or double stroke roll.

[kanker.]

As Funkkeystuff said, the key is the "3 against 4". That is, you play chords on sixteenth notes but in groups of 3: RIGHT-RIGHT-LEFT and keep this going... eventually the pattern will repeat every third bar! The "lowered chord" is a nice trick as well but it's not in the original video you posted.

 

And as Sven said, the multi-contact thing will affect how this sounds, especially the left-hand slap.

Yep. All of this - ONE E and A TWO e AND A three E AND a FOUR E and A | ONE e AND A two E AND a THREE E and A FOUR e AND A | one E AND a TWO E and A THREE e AND A four E AND a | ONE....

[HammondDave]

Start Around 5:20

 

[video:youtube]

 

Great find! And among my family and friends I am always the guy who can find anything on YouTube

 

Now I totally get what you are saying by 'below' the right hand. Yeesh. I can be dense sometimes.

 

What's the ratio of right-hand to left hand? Is it 1:1 or 2:1?

 

It's like fast triplets. One left hand slap followed by two right hand stutters...

[HammondDave]

By the way... One of the greatest HAMMOND rock solos ever!

[zukskywalker]

"Half Paradiddle"

 

Here is a full Paradiddle(I think) technique that translates very nicely onto double consoles where the "spacing" between hands can be very tight, overlap a bit, or completely overlap.

The trick is to start by thinking in fives.

RIGHT RIGHT-LEFT LEFT-RIGHT (stop)

then

LEFT LEFT-RIGHT RIGHT- LEFT (stop).

The fifth single hit is what sets up the alternating motion and allows this pattern to get VERY fast.

 

Sorry for the neophyte description but it's a nice percussive technique. Drummers practice this for hours on drum pads and it can get blindingly fast...masking the "5" it's supposed sound like a continuous roll(or in our case....continuous chops) where accenting on the "5" yields obvious alternations....especially when using different registrations between upper and lower beds.

 

(We're percussionists too.)

[CEB]

 

(We're percussionists too.)

 

Amen. Those of us who can groove know this. A big influence of mine named Terry Adams says A piano is a set of 88 drums.

[Dr88s]

Sincere thanks for all of your input.

 

A caveat is that I'm not playing a real console - I'm trying to play this on a Nord Stage.

 

I'm fine with the three against four or triplet pattern drumming my hands on my knees or even on the actual keyboard. The problem is that the left handed slap just sounds like dissonant random keys being played rather than a percussive pop. Sven had explained it's not possible on a clone; I was hoping that I could at least recreate some semblance of this.

 

Are any of you able to do this on a clone? If not, I could also try split my Nord and recreate the same drawbar settings for both and try play the rhythmic pattern on the same 'notes' with both hands...

 

By the way, I've reposted the small excerpt from the original video. It still may get blocked in your country, but perhaps this short extract may be ok.

 

http://youtu.be/xpXyQfF1ZKM

 

[WesG]

Zuk, I think you're describing a five stroke roll, not a paradiddle (Lrll rlrr)

[Tom Williams]

Zuk, I think you're describing a five stroke roll, not a paradiddle (Lrll rlrr)

Correct-a-mundo.

[Outkaster]

Somethings can't be taught