Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Danny Linguini]

sleepngbear,I had a restaurant/bar gig last Saturday night. We played pop/rock tunes in "unplugged" style. It was a trio: piano/melodica, guitar/vocal, sax/flute. I used just my CP4 and SS V3. It was a bit of an experiment for me leaving the B1200D subwoofer at home but I figured I would be mainly using acoustic piano sounds and it would be fine. The SS V3 was vertical in a corner leaning back against the wall. Acoustic piano samples sounded very good. The sound of piano filled the room, which for this gig was more important than getting achieving the highest audio fidelity (i.e., I left my RCF TT08As at home). To my surprise I often ended up splitting the CP4 keyboard using AP on the right and a variety of basses on the left. While the bass wasn't thumping is sounded very good. Hope this helps.

Very much so!! As I said, I don't need thumping bass (and in fact, thumping bass probably would have earned me a "and don't come back" last night), I just need full enough. If your bass splits carried well over the other two players, I'd say that's sufficient. Looks like I'm off to Sweetwater.

 

Edit: ORDERED!!!!

[jpst]

Unfortunately, the SS3 is going to arrive just in time for my really quiet period! This last month, I've had 6 gigs, the final 7th one is tonight, had a show (in the pit, our own monitors), and a school concert, where I teach. I'm going away next Saturday for a week, and I then have precisely zero gigs in August, at the moment! Also, it's school summer holidays (or vacation in US), so I can't even talk about it at work!

I pre-ordered it back in May - if only it had arrived last month... Oh well...

 

[drawback]

Not such a bad thing. I was glad to have the time to re-think & edit almost all my settings.

 

 

[jpst]

One of my plans also. It's one of the perks of teaching, to have a month away from the treadmill, to spend time at the piano woodshedding (last August was spent gutting & refurbishing a clavinet as well) - boy do I need practice time, to get some chops back again! Also to play some classical. And figure out the rest of the stuff my px5s does, that I haven't needed yet. Haven't figured out half the stuff on my microkorg yet either, or tried the vocoder.

I have a jam session Friday, just before I go away, so if the SS3 has arrived, I'll try it out then...

[Raymb1]

Most of my gigs are solo gigs at small jazz venues. I use Band-In-A-Box or iReal Pro with a mixer. I get more than enough volume and bass for these gigs. Love the SSV3. Ray

[rickzjamm]

Raymb1, post a vid.

[Redknife]

Here's my sub + SSV experience:

I'll just say up front that what follows is opinion. Feel free to disagree. I included more detail since these are subjective assertions.

 

I find the low end lacking with the SSV alone. I'm not bothered by absence of thump or lack of floor shaking. The Kronos as a sound source has a broad spectrum (full low end) and when using the SSV alone I miss the low end on things like organ, EP, bass, low octave piano.

I decided I wanted to add a sub for small venue/practice. I didn't want a massive rig and wanted to keep weight down. I dont need this sub to supply the spl for medium or large venues.

 

Based on all of the positive experience and good reviews, I ordered a Behringer B1200. I routed my mixer out to the Behringer and experimented with the cutoff frequency (or not). I listened to various familiar music sources and also played the Kronos/PC3A6. To put my listening impressions in to perspective: The listening area comparison was a pair of Yamaha HS8 tops and an HS8 sub. I realize that studio monitors are not a fair comparison. For medium or larger venues I am accustomed to the sound of multiple 18 subs (again, not the goal here).

 

I was pretty disappointed with the overall sound of the SSV+Behringer B1200. I spent about 4 hours tweaking and troubleshooting. I found the Behringer sloppy and lacking full character for bass representation. The Kronos Berlin piano sounded empty and muddy in the low end. The Kronos bass sounds were lacking depth and also poorly defined. I listened to the Behringer alone and it was a mess to my ears (I'm familiar with the sound of a sub alone). To my ears, the Behringer didn't extend as low as I'd like. The Behringer did add bass to the overall sound and did get loud enough for my needs, I just found it to be non-musical and inaccurate.

 

I went in search of an alternative. I was worried I'd have to get into the 75#+ size to be satisfied with the sound. Today I headed out to audition subs with a target of the Electro-Voice ZXA-1 sub. Briefly, the EV ZXA-1 sub retails for 599 USD, uses a 12" woofer, 700w amp, and weighs 46#. Its size is similar to the Behringer b1200. I listened to the ZXA-1 sub in store and compared it to the QSC w181 amongst others. The zxa actually compared favorably to the bigger subs. The sound representation was quite similar. Pushing the spl revealed the differences between the larger more expensive subs and the EV ZXA-1, which was not my main concern. My in store audition impression was that the musical representation by the ZXA-1 was satisfactory. The compromise compared to more expensive and larger subs would likely be spl if used for venues with many bodies. So I headed home with the EV zxa.

 

Back in the same environment with the same sound sources, I was now happy with the sound. The only tweaking I did was adjust the sub volume to taste. I ran stereo XLR into the EV zxa-1 sub and stereo XLR>TS out to the SSV3. The Kronos sounds awesome with the SSV and EV ZXA-1 sub. The piano is full and clear in the low end. The bass and organs are well represented. The EV sub gets quite loud, FWIW. I really like the combo because it remains musical going from soft to as loud.

 

It isn't fair to compare the $299 Behringer with the $599 EV, but for me that is where I needed to be at entry. I couldnt work with the Behringer wish I could. YMMwillV.

 

Here is a pic of the EV ZXA-1 sub + SSV for scale:

 

http://i62.tinypic.com/eqns7o.jpg

 

[Brettymike]

^^^ Very interesting and taken on board. I too demand the best digital AC piano sound I can extract out of my equipment above all else. (and Thank you Chris)

Brett

[Jazzmammal]

This is what I was talking about a month or so ago when the topic of quality subs came up. Bigger, more power, better quality makes a huge difference even when you're not pushing it. A cheapo $300 sub can work in some cases but if you want real quality you need something better. Love EV stuff, it's always been on my good bang for the buck list.

 

Bob

[Al Quinn]

Great review Redknife. Thanks!

[S_Gould]

If anyone here needs a stereo crossover, for use with a bass amp/sub, I have an Ashley stereo unit that I'll let go for $50 + shipping (should be $20 ± depending where you are and how fast you want it. If you're in FL, local pick-up is an option. (Also, if you're in FL I'm sponsoring a Leon Russell concert on July 24th. PM me

[niven8]

Many thanks Redknife! I asked about this some time ago....I've been trying to decide between these two for a while. You have confirmed my suspicions...But my only worry is that when pushing the SS it's possible it might break up. So I was going to order the D1200...just because of its crossover..but I think now as I also have a Kronos...and your write up was so revealing / to the point, I'll go for the EV.

Again many thanks

Niven.

[cphollis]

Good points all around on the sub. Since I'm not using a sub that often with my SSv3, I think I'm going to defer the EV ZXA-1 upgrade for a while.

[hookie]

Well written subjective review. Thanks!!

[cphollis]

YAGR -- yet another gig report.

 

Sunday Funday at the local roadhouse. Bigger room, maybe 50 or so patrons, windows open behind us -- one of my favorite venues as there's plenty of stage space and a nice audience. We play americana at electric volume, the usual keys/guitar/bass/drums plus a three piece horn section.

 

This is the second time I've gigged the SSv3 with this band. Usually, I brought a high-end pair of self-powered PAs and put one in each back corner of the stage. Sounded great, but it was a ton of work setting it all up and breaking it all down. When I'm only making $75 for a four-hour gig, you get what's easy for me.

 

The first time I brought the SSv3, there was some obvious skepticism: small size, only an 8" speaker, comparatively low watt rating, etc. I told them it would be just fine. Keep in mind, I usually brought a pair of 12" self-powered units with 2000w each, sitting on poles.

 

The SSv3 sat on an amp stand about one foot behind me, on its side, side-firing speaker facing the floor. Two Nords (Piano 2 and Electro 4D) through a small mixer. No sub needed or wanted for this gig.

 

SSv3 volume at 3 o'clock, width at 1 o'clock, mids at 12 o'clock and highs maybe at 2 o'clock. Mixer dialed up, boards laid back to maybe 10 o'clock or so. At no time did I ever want for volume, even on the quieter patches.

 

Organs and EPs were stellar. As usual, the APs took a bit of tweaking to give them the required presence and clarity over the band, but I got there after the first set. The new Nord "Silver Grand" samples sat very well in this mix.

 

My audience spies said they heard me clearly and the pianos sounded great throughout, so maybe my need to tweak was due to the fact the fact I was so damn close to the amp. Band leader said he liked the sound, and he's a picky dude. The rest of the band said they heard me fine, without being overpowering.

 

My band has now given my amp a new name, the "Little Monster".

 

Here's the best part: load-in and set-up was maybe 15-20 minutes less than usual, and it took me all of 15 minutes to break everything down and get it all safely in the car. That's a huge improvement. For once, I wasn't the last guy schlepping equipment.

 

-- Chuck

 

 

[Danny Linguini]

YAGR -- yet another gig report.

...

 

My audience spies said they heard me clearly and the pianos sounded great throughout, so maybe my need to tweak was due to the fact the fact I was so damn close to the amp. Band leader said he liked the sound, and he's a picky dude. The rest of the band said they heard me fine, without being overpowering.

 

My band has now given my amp a new name, the "Little Monster".

 

Here's the best part: load-in and set-up was maybe 15-20 minutes less than usual, and it took me all of 15 minutes to break everything down and get it all safely in the car. That's a huge improvement. For once, I wasn't the last guy schlepping equipment.

 

-- Chuck

 

Two things that I'm really happy to hear.

 

I can't wait for mine to get here. My only real minor concern now is that I can place it well enough on my gigs that I can hear something close to what the audience hears. Being that I'm alone now, that won't be as much of a problem as when I was sharing the stage with Peter Potamus. I'm thinking of recording a piano-only clip directly through the CP4 and use it for sound checks, so I can walk around and hear just how the piano sounds out there. I really don't know why I'm just thinking about it and haven't actually done it already.

 

PS: If you're ever playing anywhere closer to Providence, please give a shout!

[Aspen]

For once, I wasn't the last guy schlepping equipment. - Chuck

 

"Two things that I'm really happy to hear."

[quote}

Ditto, now THAT's a gig report I can get behind, thanks! It's these little things in life that count. Which is why I made the SS3 as small (and lite) as possible, yet still loud enough for those small to medium gigs. In this case (and at my age) Size Matters.

 

"I'm thinking of recording a piano-only clip directly through the CP4 and use it for sound checks, so I can walk around and hear just how the piano sounds out there."

 

EXACTLY, good point. This provides 2 benefits; first you'll better hear it and know how to set your WIDTH levels, and second it will give you the audience experience to gain the confidence and comfort knowing you CAN be heard everywhere with out lugging 4,0000 watts and poles to the gig, and beaming 130dB at the front table.

 

CPS is all about being big, but not loud. You will also notice; the image never changes, nor collapses! Once the Front and Side get a chance to interact, or "bloom" as I call it, what you'll hear is exactly what your band mates and your audience will hear...no more guessing.

 

So playing those loops and walking around is a must IMHO (or let somebody sit and and enjoy hearing your rig from the back table).

 

This is counter intuitive since we've always judged speakers from 3' "on axis", where they usually sound best (but then they rapidly deteriorate as you move off axis and/or farther away).

 

But once you get a few gigs under your belt, you may never want to go back. There are 100s of "stereo engines", but CPS is the only "stereo transmission" that works for everybody; you, the band, and the audience.

[cedar]

I was pretty disappointed with the overall sound of the SSV+Behringer B1200. I spent about 4 hours tweaking and troubleshooting. I found the Behringer sloppy and lacking full character for bass representation.

 

Just FYI for those who may have missed some discussion earlier in this thread:

 

I think that there have been many positive reports about using the Behringer B1200 in combo with the SS. (In fact, I think Aspen may have spoken positively about that combo.) I've been toying with buying the B1200 myself.

 

Not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but just noting some different viewpoints (which perhaps are largely attributable to the different uses).

[Aspen]

Here's my sub + SSV experience:

....I ordered a Behringer B1200. I routed my mixer out to the Behringer and experimented with the cutoff frequency (or not).

 

This is am excellent report Redknife, but I have a few questions about your signal routing; mixer to B1200 I get, but did you run the SS3 from the B1200 outputs, or from a separate mixer feed? Reason I ask is I've found significant gain loss with that B1200/SS3 path, and so I prefer to run SS3/B1200, both for better gain mangement, and also I think it just sounds better (but that's very subjective). I also do not use any sub above 125Hz, and usually cut them off at 100Hz (or even lower, depending on the sub). IMHO, too much sub level can make everything muddy...the SS3 benefits from "a little" LF re enforcement...but the sub should never overshadow the relatively flat and balanced sound of the SS3

 

I went in search of an alternative. So I headed home with the EV zxa.

 

Back in the same environment with the same sound sources, I was now happy with the sound. The only tweaking I did was adjust the sub volume to taste. I ran stereo XLR into the EV zxa-1 sub and stereo XLR>TS out to the SSV3. The Kronos sounds awesome with the SSV and EV ZXA-1 sub. The piano is full and clear in the low end. The bass and organs are well represented. The EV sub gets quite loud, FWIW. I really like the combo because it remains musical going from soft to as loud.

 

It isn't fair to compare the $299 Behringer with the $599 EV, but for me that is where I needed to be at entry. I couldnt work with the Behringer wish I could. YMMwillV.

 

Actually I think it IS fair to compare these, and for double the price you SHOULD expect a better sub experience. As I have always said, your ears are the best "measurement tools", and you did a great job of measuring here...very thorough! And, even though the $299 sub is a great value and can be a solution form many, sound is so subjective and you want to be completely happy with any purchase...regardless of price. BTW, there are lot of subs selling for far more, so I'd rank the price of this EV as "mid level".

 

Your experience may have me shelling out for an EV sub myself, just to be in a better position to respond to so many questions I get about this. I like offering a good/better/best option...and just like you, I need to hear these for myself.

 

But I wonder; I noticed you said "The only tweaking I did was adjust the sub volume to taste." So I checked out the back panel of the EV zxa-1, and I noticed there is not much you CAN tweak...which may be a GOOD thing! I see no x-over slope point control. Then reading their specs, they spec the response @ 40/50Hz to 100Hz, indicating the have a fixed limit...I actually LIKE that! The SS3 doesn't want a sub to get into it's "sweet spot" which starts around 100Hz. BTW, my SS3 still has response below 100Hz...it just tappers off at 3dB per octave.

 

I also see no "hi pass filter" on it's A/B outputs, so I believe this to mean it passes the signal thru to the SS3 with no gain change and/or FR change...I also like that! The one drawback I experienced with the B1200 is that loss of gain when run pre-SS3, so I like it better post SS3. I also limit the B1200 to 100Hz or less, and so the EV may be a better

"plug and play" w/ less tweaking required. Sometimes less is more when it comes to "knobs".

 

Thanks again Redknife for a great report...very informative.

[Danny Linguini]

Another option I stumbled on for a sub for use with the SS3: http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/powered-10-inch-subwoofer-cabinet/p/really-mini-tremor

 

Only mono in/out connectors, so it would have to be used post-SS. It isn't super powerful at 250w, but it is pretty light for a sub and could be what the doctor ordered for anybody who needs just a little extra oomph on the bottom end and wants to keep the schlep factor down. And it's CHEAP! I'm keeping this guy bookmarked in case I find the SS alone doesn't quite have all the bottom I need (but I AM going to give the SS a fair shake first!).

 

 

[elif]

BTW, my SS3 still has response below 100Hz...it just tappers off at 3dB per octave.

It is my understanding that sealed enclosures, which the SS3 is, roll off at 12 dB/oct.

[jpst]

Just a quick comment for Aspen ,as requested, to say it arrived from Germany this morning at 7:30am, so it was 4 days.

It cost 773 euros, which is £540.56 ($841.63) at current exchange rates. Of course, my bank decided to then charge me 2.75% non-sterling transaction fee plus £1.50 non-sterling purchase fee, totalling £16.36 ($25.48) on top - don't you just love banks!

Also, for those in the UK who haven't ordered from Thomann before, Thomann stuff doesn't come with a UK-spec power lead/plug, only a European one, so you'll need to pick up one of those separately if you don't have a spare one (not a problem for me - I have masses of them knocking around, like most musos).

I haven't tried it yet - will report later...

[paulkulas]

Another uk maybe buyer in the lichfield area,any chance of a listen if you are close.

[jpst]

I'm in Gloucestershire. Got a busy few days of urgent practice, then going away for a week to Germany (orchestra trip), so some packing to do too, but I have loads of time free in August. From the short try-out I've just had, I'll need to reconfigure a lot of my patches to a more panned, spatial format, to take full advantage of this SS3, which I won't have time to do before I go away. But when I'm back, in August, by all means!

[davinwv]

I'm in Gloucestershire. Got a busy few days of urgent practice, then going away for a week to Germany (orchestra trip), so some packing to do too, but I have loads of time free in August. From the short try-out I've just had, I'll need to reconfigure a lot of my patches to a more panned, spatial format, to take full advantage of this SS3, which I won't have time to do before I go away. But when I'm back, in August, by all means!

 

How does the clarity compare to your RCFs? I also own the TT08-As, and I am intrigued by the SS3.

[jpst]

Initial quick impressions: WOW! It's one thing reading about it, quite another actually experiencing it! Very impressed already.

I do a good few fusion/funk/classic disco mix gigs, and use my warm stereo string & pad combination settings a lot, and dialling in chorus rhodes or chorus piano with it (proper cheese!) - this thing will absolutely monster those sounds.

Layer piano/ep great, but pads were a bit staid, but I've figured this SS3 out now: the pads were dead-centre (00), and once I set them all to half-pan (max is +64 ® or -64(L), so I set them to 32, either direction), I got the pads & strings swirling round the room! I set the damper pedal to toggle/switch instead of momentary, so the pads stayed on, and wandered round the room - lush depth pretty much everywhere!

Acoustic piano sounds are a bit poor, but, again, fairly mono/centre. I doubled the piano patch (2 of them on) and set the second to full pan (64), and improved things a lot (engaging the lower speaker). Guess I could just set the one patch to half-pan, instead.

I can see I'm going to need to spend some time reconfiguring my px5s settings to optimise this speaker (mostly the pan settings), & have one lot of settings for this, on thumb drive, and another lot for my RCFs.

No time to try my Viscount drawbar organ module & mini-vent - I need to pack it away now & go do urgent practice for my orchestra trip, but I'm guessing it'll do an awesome leslie impersonation!

I'll experiment more when I get back home and have more time, in August...

[nadroj]

I'm assuming there are no Scots who have yet to buy this, so if I were to get one I'd be buying it blind (or deaf). Seriously considering it.

 

How does it do for solo gigs? This question has indeed been asked, but 123 pages. Say wedding ceremonies/dinner receptions/lounge gigs, where acoustic piano will be the only thing filling the room; Would one of these bad boys be enough?

 

EDIT: Seen posts on the last page, which is good. What about halls holding anywhere from 100-200 guests onwards?

[jpst]

The quality of the acoustic piano sound is not the same as the TT08s, but I wasn't expecting it to be, considering the price of the TT08s. For a solo piano gig, or small piano-only jazz gig, I'd be tempted to stick to the RCFs, as the stereo field isn't so much of an issue. But everything else, the SS3 sounds great.

Apologies - I really need to sign off now & go & practise

[timwat]

I haven't chimed in on this thread for a while.

 

One of my regular gigs is a weekly solo piano residency. So every Tuesday night (like tonight), I gig the CP4 through the SSv3 and GK bass combo for 2.5 hours.

 

Unlike the two powered 8" PA speakers I was previously using, the SS doesn't present the near-field fine detail my other speakers do. And I was initially very disappointed with that aspect.

 

But I will say this - the "way" the piano sits in the larger space especially on this gig (which is in a very large, open air indoor plaza with dining tables, bar, etc.) seems to be a lot more realistic to how a real acoustic piano sounds in a big room like that.

 

In other words, there isn't a lot of beamy directionality. And no one sticks their head in the open strings to get that last nth of contact detail. It's the larger piano sound blooming in the room.

 

Anyway, that's the sense I get having played this piano gig several weeks now. Granted, I've never heard the RCFs because there are too rich for my budget. But thought a small report from a guy in the trenches might be a little useful?

 

Tim

[nadroj]

Thanks Tim, couple of questions:

 

So would you say your GK bass combo is a must for those kind of gigs? And if so, no one has complained that it's been too quiet with just the two speakers?

 

Thanks a bunch.