Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[theGman]

FWIW, Nothing earthshaking in this post; I have a showroom setting, carpeted floor, 4 foot tall ceramic tile display racks all through it, a few big wall-like displays, overall about 38 x 36 feet, 8 foot drop ceiling.

 

I was farting around with the SS3 and, even with these many, many obstructions, the stereo effect was really good.

 

I found a keyboard I had lying around which actually had a demo on it (Yamaha MM6, yes, I shouldn't have wasted my $) at least the demo allowed me to try the settings. Used extra width with all the hard tile verticals and carpet, etc.

 

Just wanted to give a report on how it did in very poor acoustic conditions. Very much pleased, no weird noises in my unit btw.

 

Paul

[16251]

Tonight I played my CP4 with SS and it sounded great. I didn't hear the honkiness from the night before. I set all to 12. The SS is aprox 2 ft behind me, tilted.

 

It's weird how it sounded so different from night to night. It's like my ears/mind got used to the sound tonight.

[Ledbetter]

16251, I. Know what you mean. I liked the sound much better on the second day I had it. Dialed it in a little better I suppose, but I wonder whether the speakers and electronics "break in" with some use. Very pleased now. Playing live with the band tomorrow for the acid test.

[Aussie_Chicago]

So I am one of the first posters to experience the distortion issue. I spent all day yesterday with the sk2 and SS set up.

 

Aussie, it just dawned on me that there may be a better/quicker way to check if your SS v.3 has distortion issues. Just do what I do when I am testing systems before shipping; play some well recorded music thru it, something I am well familiar with.

 

The v.3 works very well as a sound system, so put some sounds thru it. My reference tracks are Steely Dan "Babylon Sisters", or Michael McDonalds "Keep Believin'"....but the Beatles works very well too. Anything that was recorded "clean", you know, like stuff from the last century : > )

 

All you need is a 1/8" mini TRS jack to 2x 1/4" jacks (iPod headphone cable) and you are good to go!

 

Set Level, Width, and MF all around 12 o'clock, and HF maybe at 3 o'clock...should sound awesome, and it should be loud. Then you can crank Level up to see where it starts to distort...that should be around 3 o'clock.

 

Aspen, I will investigate this further if I get a chance tomorrow. I have tried a lot of combinations of levels, settings including mixers. From here on out I will PM you-andy

[Aspen]

Review addendum: First gig last night. Couldn't be happier. Loved it. All night long.

BJL, thanks for this, I also couldn't be happier...another night of peaceful sleep.

But now I find myself in the same position many of you have been; waiting for that SW delivery! I can't wait to try out the Behringer sub!

[Aspen]

I wonder whether the speakers and electronics "break in" with some use.

I've been listening to CPS for 14+ years, and in my experience it is the listener/user who needs time to "break in"...the electronics and speakers do not change...but you will.

 

But as noted by so many here. CPS is a (wonderfully) different stereo listening experience as compared any other stereo speaker system you have ever used, and it really does take some getting used to!

 

For a few examples:

 

WIDTH LEVEL: Too much width can really mess up your tone, especially if it's a wide stereo patch to start with. Think of the width as the "wet" level of a "DSP FX" program that creates those lifelike stereo patches. So obviously, too much "wet level" will mess up the clarity of any effect. That's why I designed these controls to have a "average mix" starting at 12 o'clock, then the width control can be used to adjust the "wet" for a live or dead venue (a bit more width for a dead room, less for a live room). I'd also like to comment on some observations that certain patches are much more "stereo" tan others and that levels seem to drop off as you switch b/w these. All the more reason to keep your width control at 12 o'clock or slightly below. Too much width energy will make your wider patches seem louder (NOTE: there is ZERO Level coming from the side speaker if you give CPS a mono signal). So if you have a (real) EP that is mono, use a stereo mixer with some stereo FX like verb or chorus and it will sound wonderful. Not that mono os a bad thing, but you will get some energy from the Side amp/speaker system which will better "level match" to your other patches as you switch b/w them.

 

MF LEVEL: Same thing goes for the MF control...a little bit of mid horn compression driver goes a long way....this is an extremely efficient component from about 1.2K Hz to 10K Hz(about twice that of a cone speaker, and so we only need 40 watts to compliment with the 100 watts used on the 8" woofer). So again I "tuned" this to be adequate around 12 o'clock. That is a good starting point. Cranking it all the way can be way too aggressive for most patches...especially for a guitar modeling system, violins, vocals or an acoustic guitar or an AP patch. Interesting side note here: 35 watt compression driver is nearly the same as you'd find in a vintage Leslie 122 spinning horn system...so it REALLY does sound correct for those Hammond/Leslie sims! And, if you go with a strong sub in the mix, and crank that MF up to 2-3 o'clock to match levels and it can sound very much like a hot rod modified rock Leslie...awesome! But then again, it may be too brash for the AP patches.

 

So setting all these levels is always going to be a trade off of sorts...depending on your application and various "widths" of your patches...but at least you have options! FYI, my first pro rigs (larger and w/ separate components), and my first 2 versions of the Spacestation, had fixed levels on the MF and HF, they were run "full on" (as most PA speakers are). A dedicated early adopter SS MK2 fan brought me his SS for a listen a few years ago that had been modified with L-pads that could "trim down" the MF and HF and it blew mine away! That was a teaching moment for the teacher if you will...and the v.3 greatly benefited from moment.

 

SETTING ALL LEVELS: Listening on axis and very close is deceptive, because while the Center Point Stereo "sweet spot" is everywhere, it does need soem "distance" and a few reflective surfaces for the two systems (Front/Side) to mix and really "bloom". MOst guys are gonna stand 3-4 feet away and in the center (as you might expect for evaluating a stereo speaker system), but that will sound overly bright and dry (as you are hearing mostly mono). So it is best to set your levels standing 6' away, at most any angle...but walk around if you can...once you get some distance to most interesting thing is the "image" never collapses and sound "sweet" everywhere, and even better on the other side of the room! This of coarse is the exact opposite of most stereo speaker systems that sound their best in that narrow frontal sweet spot, and then degrade the farther you move away from that spot.

 

So it's not that the speakers and electronics take some time to "break in" as suggested here...CPS just needs some time to break YOU in!

 

I hope I haven't run on too long here, I just want you all to get the most out of your new SS v.3, with as little "break in" time as possible. But I believe this "learning curve" will be well worth your investment in time.

[drawback]

I wonder whether the speakers and electronics "break in" with some use.

I've been listening to CPS for 14+ years, and in my experience it is the listener/user who needs time to "break in"...the electronics and speakers do not change...but you will.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but it's been my experience when playing two-nighters, that the second night always sounds better to me - even though nothing technically has changed from the night before. Ears become "tuned."

 

 

 

[mak1457]

Thanks for your words of wisdom, Aspen. Having never dealt with this sort of thing before, I have a feeling it's going to take a while to start appreciating what my SS can do. But I'm liking it so far!

[HammondDave]

My reality is that I play in a rock band and compete with a drummer that hits hard, two guitarists brandishing Fender Twins, and a bass player that puts out a lot of low end. At this point I'm leaning towards the fact that the SS may not be enough on its own, at least in this rock context. I have other powered speakers/ amps, and may need to double up when I play with these guys, or...look towards a subwoofer, as is now being discussed. I also do a duo gig, and another 5 piece not playing full out rock. I think the SS should hold its own with those.

 

With all due respect, that is like bringing a Prius to a Formula One race. To expect the SS to stand up to Marshalls or Twins is unrealistic. The SS is a great sounding amp that will do well in moderate sound levels (I heard it at NAMM under less than ideal conditions, but it sounded very good). The laws of physics are still in place.

[Daddyg3042]

Thanks for the respect Hammonddave . Yea, I found out it's not realistic, and doesn't stand up without distorting, as per the reason I wrote what I did.

 

Have an important gig tonight playing with another 5 piece group I mention above, and it WILL be full out rock. I'm not bringing the SS. Regardless of how nice it sounds; if you can't be heard, it's a moot point.

[HAMEGZ]

 

All these guys who are playing in such LOUD bands where the SS cant "hold up", what is this sound level doing to your hearing?

 

I want to hear MY keys and hear them in fidelity, thus my choice for the SS. ALso I am blessed by playing with bands who have a sensible stage volume, and I fold back some of my keys into the floor monitors.

 

Having said that, I am not trying to dissuade the rockers out there from seeking another solution for loud.You need the tools necessary to fill the stage. At this juncture it seems like only a handful are playing in such a group/venue where the SS "ain't cutting it", there are tons of other amp solutions for these situations.

[Dglavko]

One thing I think the SS forces you to do is reduce your direct/in your own face volume on stage.

 

Meaning that with other amps I was used to usually hearing myself better, as it was my preference to position my amps in places where I could hear myself well, usually with the amp pointed directly at me. But that tended to mean that the others in the band couldn't hear me as well, and I was less able to tell whether I was too loud or quiet for the others/audience.

 

Now I have a much better appreciation of my overall place in the mix, but if I want to submerse myself in my own sounds, I am likely too loud for the others.

 

Conversely, one gets the impression that the SS is quieter to others than it really is. Sort of like having a second speaker way on the other side of the stage.

 

One casualty of this, however, is that it hinders 'faking it' some if I don't know the songs as well, as my blunders are heard by all more now than before.

[Jazzmammal]

One casualty of this, however, is that it hinders 'faking it' if I don't know the songs as well, as my blunders are heard by all more now than before.

 

Yep, it's a bitch ain't it? It's happened to me already, I realized I needed to tighten up a few parts because the guys have told me they can hear me clearly for the first time.

 

Bob

[Brettymike]

My reality is that I play in a rock band and compete with a drummer that hits hard, two guitarists brandishing Fender Twins, and a bass player that puts out a lot of low end. At this point I'm leaning towards the fact that the SS may not be enough on its own, at least in this rock context. I have other powered speakers/ amps, and may need to double up when I play with these guys, or...look towards a subwoofer, as is now being discussed. I also do a duo gig, and another 5 piece not playing full out rock. I think the SS should hold its own with those.

 

With all due respect, that is like bringing a Prius to a Formula One race. To expect the SS to stand up to Marshalls or Twins is unrealistic. The SS is a great sounding amp that will do well in moderate sound levels (I heard it at NAMM under less than ideal conditions, but it sounded very good). The laws of physics are still in place.

 

A larger SS could blow everything else into the weeds.

 

Brett

[Danny Linguini]

A larger SS could blow everything else into the weeds.

 

Brett

I agree, but ... and this is just my own most very humble opinion ... once you start getting that loud, seems to me you're going to start losing all the benefits of the 'space' design of the SS, not to mention you're going to deafen yourself and anyone else on stage in a matter of minutes with all that volume now being so much more evenly dispersed. Every time I've heard a very loud band, all subtlety is out the window, which is all that nice stereo separation the SS creates. The farthest thing from my mind is how well the keyboard rig is mimicking a Leslie on the B3. My thinking is, if you're going to be that loud, the SS will be great for a monitor for yourself and maybe to help the others on stage hear you; but for getting it out there, you may as well just keep pumping it through something designed for those kinds of levels.

[Brettymike]

After reading 99% of these posts on the SS3 , that's it's beauty - awesome stereo sound that spreads *without* being deafeningly loud like ordinary speakers can be.

Bigger SS3 has to be considered for larger venues.

(All the top notch sound systems I have heard in my life, we could soak up the sound - and still talk (like around the SS3 apparently).

 

Brett

[endlessummerkeys]

well.... got my sub hooked up and fed the SS only 100khz and above an I must say that it is an incredible combination and I love it!!!!!

[JohnCorda]

I believe I was having audio issues with the SSv3. The initial crackling was really bad, but went away. Distortion sometimes at medium loud levels, although not usually as bad as the audio example that Mitch posted. There was some kind of hissing going on as well. Some of the screws in the front couldn't be tightened, like they were stripped, don't know what that was about. I think I just received an oddball unit.

 

Having said that, if it was sounding at all like it's supposed to, then I only liked the sound sometimes, using both an SK1 and a Nord Stage. It was very difficult to dial it all in but I did extensive experimenting with all the settings on both the speaker and the keyboards.

 

I returned it. As it would happen, the amp I really wanted was magically in stock, made by a company that is barely back in business (from what I can tell). I received it and it sounds amazing, with a stereo spread, huge amounts of bass, four stereo inputs, wheels, and just under 50 lbs. Best acoustic piano amplification I've heard. I could continue to gush but this isn't the thread for that.

 

Best of luck to all the happy SSv3 owners out there, to the few who had some issues like me, and to Aspen and his company.

[TomKittel]

Spacestation not loud enough for a rockband? Not sure what some of you guys are talking about. Recently I covered for the keyboard player of a blues rock band (which turned out to be a heavy metal band noisewise...). Two deaf guitar players with cranked Twin Reverb and Engl 2x12 amps. The Spacestation was able to cope with ANY volume level these deaf guys called up over the course of the evening. Did it sound nice? No. Keyboards are not made for coping with fully turned up rock guitars. Was the SSV3 loud enough to be heard? Yes, I did not even fully crank it. Did it distort? No. Was ist fun to play? No. Aleady told this band that I would not fill in next time. Anyway, the SSV3 can be loud as hell, really.

 

[Aspen]

One casualty of this, however, is that it hinders 'faking it' if I don't know the songs as well, as my blunders are heard by all more now than before.

 

Yep, it's a bitch ain't it? It's happened to me already, I realized I needed to tighten up a few parts because the guys have told me they can hear me clearly for the first time.

 

Bob

LOL! thanks for the honesty Bob and Tom...but is this really such a bad thing?

[SteinwayB]

OK, so I received my SSv3 last week and have some initial impressions. First, about me. I play primarily jazz piano, usually in trio or quartet. I have a fairly extensive history with digital pianos beginning with the ESQ1, EPS 16+, K1000, K2500, Gigapiano, Ivory I and Ivory II, and now Nord Piano. I have also played the CP4 and Pianoteq 4 and 5. Even though there has been a nice evolution in acoustic piano quality, I still find them essentially unplayable; sound like fingernails on a chalkboard. At gigs I find myself using the CP70 patch and Fender rhodes, both of which have a more orgainic feel and "playability" compared to the acoustic piano sounds. I have played extensively with velocity curves and EQ. As far as amplification, I have a pair of FBT 4maxxa's which are great sounding self-powered speakers. On smaller gigs I will bring a pair of Samson monitors. I have long been aware of the improvement in sound quality when these pianos are played in stereo, and when using headphones they actually sound decent. By the way, I have an original CP70 and I find it infinitely more playable and enjoyable than any digital piano, and yet it is, of course, mono. Band members are not enthusiastic to help me move the CP70. But as is clear, playing stereo in a gig situation is not practical, thus I was excited about trying the SSv3 thinking this is the holy grail answer to my portable digital piano conundrum. When I first fired it up, I ran an MP3 player through it. I set the mid and high flat, and thinking more is better, turned the separation to max. I'm sure you all know that maxing the separation is a mistake and I got some weird echo type distortions. I turned it to 2 o'clock and it was quite remarkable how the stereo field permeated the room. However I found that when I turned the separation to 0, there was a distinct absent of high frequencies. I thought the tweeter or tweeter amp was blown as holding my hand over the tweeter made no difference in sound quality. I then cranked the highs and verified that the tweeter and tweeter amp were indeed working. I titrated the separation back up but now side speaker was way to bright and I turned the highs back to 12 o'clock. Then I plugged my Nord Piano in and it sounded pretty good with an obvious stereo effect, but did not have flat crisp clean sound that my FBT's have. I'm wondering if anybody else has had similar observations. I have not taken it to a gig yet, and don't have anything lined up for a month. Also, I was considering purchasing an ART stereo crossover ($159) to send >100 Hz to the SSv3 and <100Hz to my FBT. The FBT has great bass response and weighs only 28lbs; way cheaper and lighter solution than the Behinger sub. Thanks for reading this; any comments/suggestions are welcome!

[Aspen]

I set the mid and high flat, and thinking more is better, turned the separation to max. I'm sure you all know that maxing the separation is a mistake and I got some weird echo type distortions. I turned it to 2 o'clock and it was quite remarkable how the stereo field permeated the room. However I found that when I turned the separation to 0, there was a distinct absent of high frequencies.....any comments/suggestions are welcome!

 

The SS v.3 has FOUR Class D switching amps; one (100 watts) for the woofer (this is actually set by the master Level), one (40 watts) for the 1" compression coax that sits in the throat of the 8" woofer, one (40 watts) for the super tweeter in the upper Left corner on the Front speaker system, and one (100 watts)for the High Power 6.5" full range Side speaker.

 

This allows the user maximum control to make it sound great, or also the ability to sound pretty terrible if set wrong!

 

If you are calling the "Width" Level "separation", then IMHO the best starting point is 12 o'clock, as I would also suggest for the other two. I am not sure this is "technically flat" but it is where I "tuned" these 2 amps to sound "normal".

 

My personal song reference for tuning the v.3 are a few familiar tracks from a Steely Dan and Micheal McDonald...but remember, that's after extensive computer modeling to tweak the filters and balance these components in a much more "scientific" method (the credit goes out to Dr. Marshall Buck from Psychoacoustics).

 

I start Width all the way OFF so I can focus on the 3 way tri amp Front system as follows:

 

Starting with MF an HF OFF, set the Level (now you will hear only the woofer") to the loudness you will use.

 

Next bring up MF slowly up to 12 o'clock. The Vocals should sound best here.

 

Next do the same with the HF (NOTE: some patches like AP and EP will have very little HF content up there, as you discovered, so). So to set HF I use a synth, a sting patch, or a well recorded band CD w/ a strong Hi Hat. Don't worry if the tweeter is non existent for your AP and EP patches...to quote Bruce Hornsby; "That's Just the Way it Is".

 

Now once you get the Front (L+R, mono) system sounding "nice", slowly add Width. Probably you will never like it much beyond 12 0'clock.

 

The cool thing is, once you set this balance...the Master Level keeps it as you turn it up or down.

 

Final Note: a small room can be very deceptive for "judging" the "sound" of the SS. I have noticed many of you have unboxed it and start to play with it in a small carpeted room at your house (naturally!). But also, I have notice some use a larger rehearsal space for their first impressions...and the first impression range from "so-so" to WOW!" That is because CPS technology takes a few feet and a few surfaces to "mix" and "bloom". It loves big reverberant rooms with terrible acoustics.

 

Any system can sound good in a acoustically perfect room, and so will the SS v.3. But the SS neutralizes a bad room, using the reflections to it's advantage! It also can sound surprisingly good in a back yard gig set up against a house wall.

 

If you can get to the 1st gig you will use it at a bit early and can play a demo song, it will be more fun and much easier to adjust the levels. Just walk around the room, I am sure you can dial it in very quick. Your ears are the best measurement tools, and the only ones you really need.

 

(I know I have explained this tuning method before, at least once, but I notice many start posting here asking for direction without reviewing this rather lengthy thread. So I felt the need, apologies to those who have been on here since the start)

[Jazzmammal]

One casualty of this, however, is that it hinders 'faking it' if I don't know the songs as well, as my blunders are heard by all more now than before.

 

Yep, it's a bitch ain't it? It's happened to me already, I realized I needed to tighten up a few parts because the guys have told me they can hear me clearly for the first time.

 

Bob

LOL! thanks for the honesty Bob and Tom...but is this really such a bad thing?

 

Of course not but we all get lazy from time to time but with the SS that's coming to an end. I just did a big band gig this afternoon and the SS was great. Again. It was at a VFW and the room was way too small so of course we are were very cramped in the corner. A 16 piece band cramped up in a corner. The SS was sitting in between the tripod legs of one of the PA speakers rignt next to one of the trumper players. When I showed him the side firing speaker he said "great, I'm going to go deaf from that thing". It didn't happen, it sounded pretty good. I say pretty good because this was as far from an ideal setup as you can get. It was all AP and I used my SK1 for it. The only bad thing was I heard the occasional metallic edge from a few notes that people have mentioned on the SK1 thread. It requires some EQ to tame and I managed to get rid of most of it but it's still there. Not the Spacestation's problem though. Part of it was the SS was sitting on a 2 foot high stage with me on the floor directly in front of the tweater. The worst possible place for it from my pov yet the leader was on the far side with 10 horns between us and he heard me clearly. I'm still loving this amp.

 

To our new friend Steinway, all I can say is life is full of compromises, nothing's perfect. It's been said many times before, trying it at your house only gives you half the story at the most. You have to get it on a gig with all the other players and some volume. Then it comes alive.

 

Bob

[WWW]

I'm still waiting for mine from Sweetwater. I ordered it in December.

 

I wonder what is the status of the new shipment?

[Aspen]

I'm still waiting for mine from Sweetwater. I ordered it in December.

 

I wonder what is the status of the new shipment?

 

The ship w/ our container left Jan 12th. Normally I would have it by now and moved it on to SW. But as I know, the ship is anchored off LA waiting in a long line to reach the docks and clear it's cargo. This shipment will (would have?) clear all backorders and put stock on the SW shelves.

 

They Longshoremans unions recently said a "deal is close", but if you read past the headlines it now looks like the PMA (dock owners) may shut the docks down, and soon:

 

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/02/04/west-coast-port-shut-down-could-happen-soon-but-union-believes-labor-deal-is-close/

 

and this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-05/catastrophic-shutdown-americas-supply-chain-looms-west-coast-port-worker-talks-break

 

Just keeping all you guys updated here from the Left Coast, please don't shoot the messenger...I am in this with you and it is costing me dearly too. No (or slow) cash flow means no new orders can be placed, and the cycle of back orders may continue past this next month.

 

In a related story, it appears that due to the "slow down" at the west coast ports, Mardi Gras will not have their beads delivered in this year...so it could be worse I guess.

 

http://video.newsfixnow.com/Strike-at-Port-of-Los-Angeles-could-affect-beads-for-Mardi-Gras-28495372

 

[HAMEGZ]

I'm still waiting for mine from Sweetwater. I ordered it in December.

 

I wonder what is the status of the new shipment?

 

The ship w/ our container left Jan 12th, normally I would have it by now and moved it on to SW. But as I know, the ship is anchored off LA waiting in a long line to reach the docks and clear it's cargo.

 

Just keeping all you guys updated here from the Left Coast:

 

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/02/04/west-coast-port-shut-down-could-happen-soon-but-union-believes-labor-deal-is-close/

 

. This is bad news for everybody, not to mention our overdue CPS deliveries. In a related story, it appears that Mardi Gras will not have their beads delivered in this year...

 

 

And thus the ladies will have to keep their shirts on ...

[drawback]

So back to use of subs: it seems the consensus is mixer>sub>crossover>SS rather than the other way, correct?

 

I think I'd read many pages ago that the SS v.3 will send <100 Hz to any amp that would serve as a sub, without need of a crossover.

 

[ChrisDespo]

So back to use of subs: it seems the consensus is mixer>sub>crossover>SS rather than the other way, correct?

 

I think I'd read many pages ago that the SS v.3 will send <100 Hz to any amp that would serve as a sub, without need of a crossover.

 

Yeah, that's how I'm using it, minus the mixer ... so: keys>sub>SS

 

The reason not the other way (going through the SS first) is you can limit the amount of work the SS has to do by filtering out the lows ... you are correct that you could feed the sub with the SS out since it is a full frequency output but you're not helping the SS as much as you would be the other way around by letting the sub take all the really low stuff and just leave the rest to the SS ...

[Jazzmammal]

Yes and no, your first phrase is correct the but second part is wrong. The SS sends a full range output to the sub so if you want the low freq's out of the SS you can either use a separate crossover like you said at first or use a sub that has it's own built in crossover. Either way if you want the low freq's filtered out before the SS you need a crossover in between the audio and the SS.

 

Again, this depends on you're situation. The SS does handle a fair amount of bass cleanly so simply running your audio into the SS and then use the sub out to a sub can also work but to get the maximum output from the SS then taking out the bass first would be the way to go.

 

Bob

[AndyW]

SS3 sub out is full spectrum. So you will want a cross over. But more important is to limit the signal to the SS3 if you want to use the absolute highest volume.

 

So the signal chain going through the sub first to use the 100 htz cut (rumble filter) then the SS3 is best.