Clonewheel Tone

[allan_evett]

I was checking out Ed Diaz's very comprehensive run-down of the VR-09 on YouTube, and the demo of the organ section caught my ear in a particular way. What I'm hearing is that the overall sonic construction of the VR's organ model sounds closer to that of the SK-1 / 2 than that of the tonewheel model in my Stage 2. To my ears, the Hammond clones - starting with the SK's and moving up through the XK-3c - have that authenticity vibe nailed. I'd have an SK-1, 73 instead of the Stage 2, if Hammond had put pitch/mod controls on that instrument for control of the non-organ sounds - especially the synths; I also

like being able to bend and 'mod' clavinet riffs.

 

While not quite as 'gutsy' as the Hammond clones, the VR-09 does have a piece of that authenticity vibe that I don't hear on the Stage 2, the Kurz PC3 series, or Korg's CX3 engine. Granted, the clonewheel engines on those keyboards are not in the least bit shabby, but there's a little of the mojo missing - at least to my ears; there's a clarity and directness of the sound that's not quite there - as opposed to the Hammond clones, and to a degree with the VR-09.

At first I thought it might be related to EQ. But despite working with the different organ models, plus the EQ and effects on my Stage 2, it still sounds about 85% there - compared to the SK-1 (which I have played). Adding a Vent' brings the sound to about 90%, but there's still something missing. It's been similar with Kurz's KB3 and the Kronos' CX-3 - both of which I've played live. BTW, VB3 - which I use at home for recording - also has that authenticy vibe, in spades. Going back 30 years, and in no way a direct comparison, I also heard something akin to that while playing a Yamaha SK-30.

 

Anybody else hear what I'm hearing ? Something just sounds more 'alive' with the Hammond clones, VB3, and potentially the VR-09. While I haven't played a Mojo, or any of the KeyB gear, those products' demos seem to present that same higher level of authenticity.

[CEB]

The Nords sound good. I hear them in a lot bands that perform either before or after us in shared billed gigs.

 

The Nords sound too good. They sound too perfect. Maybe it is because my Hammond was always in **** condition. LOL.

 

VR-09.... I would never be able to get past the Juno keyboard.

[Bobadohshe]

Allan is the new Theo.

[Bobadohshe]

In all seriousness, I know of what you speak, though I haven't ABed as rigorously and am not *as* familiar with the Nord organ sound. I do know that the sound coming from my SK2 is as close to the real thing as I've ever experienced.

[Synthoid]

Allan is the new Theo.

 

Congratulations on your award.

 

 

http://images.asadart.com/sources/com/buyawardsandtrophies/images/products/RF3431SG.jpg

 

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Allan,

 

As everyone knows here, I'm a fan of the VR-09, but not so much for it's absolutely authentic Hammond sound (because it's not) as much for the price point and value of the overall instrument.

 

With respect to the Hammond sound, I don't like the default sound of it, but there is a cool registrations that I think was called Bay Area B3 that was very good and with a bit of tweaking it's working very well for me. If you want to hear various different examples of the VR-09 (organ, organ through Ventilator, clavinet, electric pianos).. you can go to soundcloud and just search for ccmacdon and you'll see a bunch of VR-09 demos.. All of these demos are the raw output of the VR-09 straight into Sonar, with no effects or EQ or any other processing.

 

In these demos, I'm just noodling around, but if you really want to understand how the organ sounds across the keyboard with various drawbar settings etc.. I think you might find these better than some of the other demos. Hope this helps.

 

Maybe you will or won't like the sound, but I'm finding it very workable.. It's not my Mojo, and it's not fantastic, but it's very good. Hope this helps.

[Outkaster]

People that know me know my feelings on Nord. While they have made vast improvements in that department they just don't sit well with me. I don't care for the action either and it feels cheaply made. They are to keyboards what Apple is to the cell phone market.

 

Anyway we are getting to the point with the clones that it will be splitting hairs with what sounds good. The improvements are constantly being made on "the Hammond sound". I played a festival last month where there was someone that had toured as Sugar Minots (Classic Reggae Artists) keyboard player. I have known him awhile and he thought the Kronos and Vent combination sounded killer out front. This was from someone that toured with a B-3 so you never know?

[allan_evett]

Allan is the new Theo.

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Anyway we are getting to the point with the clones that it will be splitting hairs with what sounds good.

 

I think that this is very true, and honestly, we all have different sound preferences and feel/interface priorities, so we're never going to all agree on all of this. If you find a clone with the sound/feel/interface that you like, go for it and don't look back and don't worry about all of these debates.

[nickd]

Well, if a DX7 organ patch was good enough for Kenny Kirkland in Sting's band, who are we to argue about details?

 

[AnotherScott]

I'd have an SK-1, 73 instead of the Stage 2, if Hammond had put pitch/mod controls on that instrument for control of the non-organ sounds

...

despite working with the different organ models, plus the EQ and effects on my Stage 2, it still sounds about 85% there - compared to the SK-1 (which I have played).

A little OT from your point, but would you compare the actions of the NS2-73 and the SK1? I still haven't found an SK to play. The Nord has too much push-back, it is too highly sprung for my taste... and I've read some differing opinions about how the SK compares... so I figured I'd ask for one more! (My own frustration with the SK1-73 is the F-to-F keyspan, which to me provides virtually no benefit over a 61.)

[Stokely]

When I owned a Korg cx3--only briefly as it had a bad double-trigger issue--I brought it over to my friend's place. He has a VR-760, the older version of the v-combo. The two organ sounds were quite different, and it would have been difficult to make them sound the same. There was a difference that went beyond EQ, not sure what it was. The distortions were very different. That said, both sounded pretty good to us.

[David Loving]

Well, if a DX7 organ patch was good enough for Kenny Kirkland in Sting's band, who are we to argue about details?

 

Discussion ended -cease work!

[mate stubb]

Well, if a DX7 organ patch was good enough for Kenny Kirkland in Sting's band, who are we to argue about details?

 

Uh, I'll never forget the taste of bile in my mouth hearing the cheezy organ sound on "Set Them Free." Great players can have bad taste too.

 

I'll argue!

[CEB]

I thought it worked in that song. But I like Farfs and Voxes also. I liked the old Farcheeza patch on some stuff also.

[nadroj]

Suppose I'm kinda blessed in regards to this in the sense that I'd never started playing/listening to organs based songs until a couple of years ago. I've no experience with the real thing so I just listen to the track very closely and try and emulate it best as I can on the highly editable tone wheel on my RD700. I can get it close, and as far as I know/my bandmates know, it's close to the track and everyone is happy.

 

I'm just waiting for the day when there's a hammond vet in the audience who comes up to me after a gig and tells me my organ patch sounds like a starving, dying dog.

[CEB]

Soundman will have your keys so compressed and buried they won't be able to hear you anyway. LOL!

[allan_evett]

Well, if a DX7 organ patch was good enough for Kenny Kirkland in Sting's band, who are we to argue about details?

 

Uh, I'll never forget the taste of bile in my mouth hearing the cheezy organ sound on "Set Them Free." Great players can have bad taste too.

 

I'll argue!

 

+ 1

 

And it's not just the listening part, it's being a player and having an instrument that's responsive and evocative. In 2006 when I first encountered an S90ES, it felt - for the first time - that playing a digital piano tone was instrumentally expressive; it began to feel more like a musical instrument. I also find the engine of the JP50 to be very expressive (though aftertouch would be helpful...). I'd like to get the same feeling when playing organ. Actually when I owned an XK-2, in the early 2000's, the B3 emulation and expressive capabilities were far ahead of anything else on which I'd played organ at that time. Fast forward to 2013: wish I could get in the same zone with the CX3 engine, or the Stage 2 organ model, but - comparatively speaking - it just isn't happening. And a Hammond keyboard - for 2nd tier - isn't practical - due to design, as previously mentioned.

 

What would be great is one of these, courtesy of Jim Alfredson's Photoshop efforts:

 

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt198/allanevett/219fac26e9ef2c3dbcf2bf89a77c3811_zps3b8e97ad.jpg

 

Slap that puppy on top of my JP-50, and 2nd tier would be done for quite a while...

 

 

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

I find that it's a very different experience playing my CX3 vs the CX3 engine in my Kronos (same with a real polysix vs the polysix engine). I really think that it's due to the interface more than the sound.

[AnotherScott]

I find that it's a very different experience playing my CX3 vs the CX3 engine in my Kronos...I really think that it's due to the interface more than the sound.

Yes, and also the action.

[allan_evett]

I'd have an SK-1, 73 instead of the Stage 2, if Hammond had put pitch/mod controls on that instrument for control of the non-organ sounds

...

despite working with the different organ models, plus the EQ and effects on my Stage 2, it still sounds about 85% there - compared to the SK-1 (which I have played).

A little OT from your point, but would you compare the actions of the NS2-73 and the SK1? I still haven't found an SK to play. The Nord has too much push-back, it is too highly sprung for my taste... and I've read some differing opinions about how the SK compares... so I figured I'd ask for one more! (My own frustration with the SK1-73 is the F-to-F keyspan, which to me provides virtually no benefit over a 61.)

 

My Stage 2 is a 76, but touch-wise I haven't found playing organ on it to be a detriment - compared to playing organ from a heavy, Yamaha S-Series 88 key action. Also playing accordion, electric violin, and synth parts seem to go smoothly; not quite as slick as the synth action of my JP50, but I don't find quick parts / solos to be impeded.

That said, I'd likely find the waterfall action of a Hammond to be better suited; but the SK's don't have pitch / mod control, and the XK-3c (which does) is much too specialized for what I do (too much $$$$ for just covering organ; and carrying an additional rack module is not an option I want to explore).As I noted above, an all-in-one Hammond tabletop would be ideal, but right now that's just part of Jim's imagination . BTW, the KeyB Expander did seem to be an option - before the Columbia, MO corporate debacle happened earlier in the year. Far as I know it still hasn't been sorted out yet....B3 Guys in Nashville is not listing any available stock, just big, fat zeros in the price listing.

 

[HammondDave]

Yeah... That's a shame.... Great product though...

[AnotherScott]

My Stage 2 is a 76, but touch-wise I haven't found playing organ on it to be a detriment - compared to playing organ from a heavy, Yamaha S-Series 88 key action.

Yeah, if you must play organ from a weighted action, the NS2 is better than most. And for some reason, I though the original Stage/EX was even better. I actually wish the weighted NS2s felt more like the previous generation.

 

I'm really curious to find out what the new action on the SK1-88 feels like, but either no one has played on yet, or they're not talking!

[rien]

I'm really curious to find out what the new action on the SK1-88 feels like, but either no one has played on yet, or they're not talking!

They can't talk anymore: they died bleeding on the keyboard after having sliced their whole arm trying to perform a palm glissando...

 

hammond, 88 ? Meh !

[I-missRichardTee]

I find that it's a very different experience playing my CX3 vs the CX3 engine in my Kronos (same with a real polysix vs the polysix engine). I really think that it's due to the interface more than the sound.

 

A bit OT but which do you prefer, B3 wise, Kronos or CX3?

Thanks

[stoken6]

DX7 organ patch

Cheezy organ sound on "Set Them Free."

 

:smile: That made me go back and listen to the track again! The song kind of has that 80s gloss on it - a "real" B3 would have been out of place.

 

Of course, imho Sting should have done the whole song as a proper retro/old-skool soul screamer. B3 and Wurly, brass section, three Arethas singing, the works.

 

But what do I know?

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

I find that it's a very different experience playing my CX3 vs the CX3 engine in my Kronos (same with a real polysix vs the polysix engine). I really think that it's due to the interface more than the sound.

 

A bit OT but which do you prefer, B3 wise, Kronos or CX3?

Thanks

 

If you don't mind me providing my thoughts on this, having owned a real digital BX3 and a the CX3 in the Kronos.. obviously it's a very different playing experience given the BX3 and CX3 non-weighted waterfall keys, real drawbars, dedicated and labelled buttons in a familiar B3 style layout etc.. sound wise, the Kronos CX3 has been updated, and includes some additional tweakability that the original does not (for example the C/V is more tweakable) and the Kronos CX3 can utilize the Kronos multi-effects so you have the ability to utilize sophisticated EQ's and better reverb and compression.. That said, I think that the tonal characteristics of the original CX3/BX3 were better across the keyboard.. on the newer Kronos CX3 implementation I find it difficult to get a nice tone right across the keyboard (I can get a really nice sound in the upper octaves but then it's often not quite right in the bottom end, and vice versa.. so the CX3 in the Kronos is much better for tweaking, but I really did like the original more for playing.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Apology, with "excuse" to Alan Evett OP I listened to Ed Diaz demo, and I reacted on a gut level without knowing analytically what is was about Roland's "take" ( samples??) on the B3, that I always liked. Then I decided to start a thread where the distant possibility of possessing that Roland sound PLUS a few of my other favorites, could somehow exist all in one board! So I acknowledge, your thread reminded me of this perhaps impractical wish!

Craig M, by "real digital BX3", you are referring to the BX from about 10 years ago, or the original, from approx 20 years ago? BTW Does it matter, were both the original and the reissue from 2004 essentially sonically the same?

As you may know, I own the 2005 CX3 and the new Mojo. I have hardly dented the possibilities of the Mojo. It obviously is superior to any clone including the Roland and the CX3, YET there is something STILL about that dang CX3 that I like and miss. I would have assumed I was just being foolish ( as some here generally believe about Mr Tee! ) however the drummer I have been using the CX3 and later the mojo with, mentioned he liked the CX3, after my early struggles with getting the MOJO bass to sound right! Now I am playing bass on Mojo and CX so that plays into it. Plus I do not have my act together with regard to amplification. Still that drummers feeling plus my own, do give me pause to reflect.

I am using the Mojo tonight, and will try 2 K10's as has been suggested by a few Mojo owners, including Benji from DC, one bad dude.

I too have this issue of playability across the entire keyboard, but especially in the bass area of lower manual. I had that issue with the CX3 and the Mojo. SO this is a work in progress to smooth out the sound..

Thank you Alan !

[J. Dan]

I find that it's a very different experience playing my CX3 vs the CX3 engine in my Kronos (same with a real polysix vs the polysix engine). I really think that it's due to the interface more than the sound.

 

A bit OT but which do you prefer, B3 wise, Kronos or CX3?

Thanks

 

I didn't care for a lot of the Kronos presets, but they are much more tweakable, and in that category, the Kronos interface is superior as well. Technically, I'm much more likely to be able to nail a particular sound on the Kronos implementation, but it's more enjoyable PLAYING on the CX3, mainly due to having drawbars and dedicated, clearly labelled buttons and other controls.

[I-missRichardTee]

Alan, et al.. Unless I am playing a great B3, a real one, that sounds great in the mix... I would say that the SOUND is primary with Mr Tee, with regard to clonewheels. From that pov then, the Kronos sounds like a winner. Let me ask, when JustDan and Craig say, Kronos superior tweakability.. that translates to more sounds that we love about the B3 are available!

When we listen to some of our favorite recordings with B3 on it, the B3 has so many chameleon like possibilities; thanks to 1. the player and his drawbar settings, 2. the mix, 3. the amplification and micing of the B3, 4. the nature of the inherent sound of that particular B3 or clone for that matter.

That is a lot of variables, and those who love B3, want to achieve these many aspects of a B3.

WHat I am saying is, as much as waterfall keys, drawbars are part of the experience, for me THE SOUND is number one. This puts Kronos back on my radar.