Delaware Dave Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'd still like to see Yamaha return to the innovation arena. +1 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 I almost forgot this little "jewel" from Yamaha--interesting, but hopelessly overpriced: http://www.techtoy.de/uploads/2008/05/tenori-on-fly.jpg When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 As far as the future goes, it's not hard to imagine that in 5 years time Korg could be selling the Kronos technology at Krome prices. Figure in five years of Korg and third party add-on libraries and you've got one hell of a product at no more cost than a controller and tablet. Yep. Korg and Yamaha could go "back to the future" and drop their Kronos and Motif workstation features (sounds, sequencer and sampler) in a $500 MIDI module for musos tethered to hardware. There are plenty sub $1k, 88-note KBs floating around to serve as a MIDI controller. The total functionality of a present day Kronos or Motif for less than $2k. Game over. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 A used DP piano with full-weighted keys, MIDI out for $<300 and iPad, that's doable today. Barely. But cool that you can do it at all. I'd still want a better action than $300 usually buys you, controllers that cheap DPs don't generally have (i.e. wheels, pedals), hard buttons on the piano that you can program to call up the sounds you want. And in the iPad, a more rock solid ability to combine and switch among sounds from multiple apps. But that should come with more powerful iPads. we keyboardists hear enough complaining from the audience like, "you're just pressing a few buttons and not really playing." Seems to me an iPad rig would put the last nail in the coffin. Better in that respect than having a laptop up there, though. Based on serial numbers it appears Korg sold ~15,000 in the 1.5 years. At $3000 selling price that's $45m. Not bad considering Yamaha has boasted $100m for the Motif line (but that's over 10 years). Though there's a difference between total dollar sales at retail and how much of that finds its way to Korg, which may make it less simple to compare those Yamaha and Korg estimates. Korg and Yamaha could go "back to the future" and drop their Kronos and Motif workstation features (sounds, sequencer and sampler) in a $500 MIDI module for musos tethered to hardware. There are plenty sub $1k, 88-note KBs floating around to serve as a MIDI controller. The total functionality of a present day Kronos or Motif for less than $2k. Game over. Even if Korg were inclined to come out with a rack Kronos (or desktop module a la M3-M), I doubt it would be anywhere near $500! The keybed is by no means the bulk of the product's cost. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Yep. Korg and Yamaha could go "back to the future" and drop their Kronos and Motif workstation features Well, it would be nice to have a "Kronos LE" for those who don't need another sampler. (The Krome is just too basic for me). Include most of the Kronos synth engines and sequencer, with a smaller touch screen and basic keybed for about $1699. When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 we keyboardists hear enough complaining from the audience like, "you're just pressing a few buttons and not really playing." Seems to me an iPad rig would put the last nail in the coffin. Better in that respect than having a laptop up there, though. I guess I'm just getting too old. Neither option works for me. I tried a laptop a couple of times--too long for boot-up and program/sounds to load, and the extra wires... yuck. When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 it would be nice to have a "Kronos LE" for those who don't need another sampler. (The Krome is just too basic for me). Include most of the Kronos synth engines and sequencer, with a smaller touch screen and basic keybed for about $1699. Funny that you suggest the smaller touch screen, when one of the biggest complaints about the Kronos is that the screen is too small! They would really have to redesign the entire interface to work on a still smaller screen without (further) losing legibility or touch accuracy. But we could all suggest our own "custom" Kronos subset. You still want the sequencer, I don't care about it at all! My personal "minimal" Kronos derivative would be a 73-key aftertouch-enabled unweighted board with CX-3 and streaming HD-1 engines at $2k-ish, including something close to real drawbar ergonomics. Streaming HD-1 can give you plenty of nice piano and EP, and you could mate it with a King Korg for more hands-on VA if desired. At that price, I think this would compete nicely with SK1, Nord Electro, Jupiter 50. Gotta keep it under 25 lbs, though! Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucktronix Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Casio is showing the way with their forthcoming PX-5S, that's for sure. But imagine if they just had the controller guts in it without the sounds... And sold it for $750! Bring along your iPad, plug it in... And go... $750 controller plus $249 for some sounds. Sounds like a plan for $999. Well, lets look at a scenario... $750 for a controller $300 for a used iPad(remember, not everyone has an iPad) $50 - $75 for I/O dock or interface Great deal.?? Nah, I'll just take the Casio as-is Kronos 88 Platinum, Yamaha YC88, Subsequent 37, Korg CX3, Hydrasynth 49-key, Nord Electro 5D 73, QSC K8.2, Lester K Me & The Boyz Chris Beard Band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 it would be nice to have a "Kronos LE" for those who don't need another sampler. (The Krome is just too basic for me). Include most of the Kronos synth engines and sequencer, with a smaller touch screen and basic keybed for about $1699. Funny that you suggest the smaller touch screen, when one of the biggest complaints about the Kronos is that the screen is too small! They would really have to redesign the entire interface to work on a still smaller screen without (further) losing legibility or touch accuracy. But we could all suggest our own "custom" Kronos subset. You still want the sequencer, I don't care about it at all! My personal "minimal" Kronos derivative would be a 73-key aftertouch-enabled unweighted board with CX-3 and streaming HD-1 engines at $2k-ish, including something close to real drawbar ergonomics. Streaming HD-1 can give you plenty of nice piano and EP, and you could mate it with a King Korg for more hands-on VA if desired. At that price, I think this would compete nicely with SK1, Nord Electro, Jupiter 50. Gotta keep it under 25 lbs, though! I'm talking about five years out. It would have everything the Kronos has. No money is saved by taking functionality out of software. In fact the more you change, the more you have to put $$$s into retesting, redesign etc. It could run on whatever entry level Intel CPU/MB is available at that time. R&D have been recouped easily after five years. The problem with a "stripped-down" Kronos today is that it would cost as much to make as the workstation. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekewaka Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Korg might do the same with Kronos as what Yamaha did with the MM6 Motif, stripped down ROM only version with most of the original sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Korg might do the same with Kronos as what Yamaha did with the MM6 Motif, stripped down ROM only version with most of the original sounds. Appealing idea. I wouldn't mind taking it a step further: a tabletop / rack module with the 9 core engines, no sequencer / audio recording studio on-board (don't need it); almost a Kronos equivalent of the Intergra 7 in design, with an option to either tabletop it, or rack it. The keyboard and bulk are two things that I don't need in my Kronos. I'd get much more live use out of it as a tabletop combined with my CP50; then I'd put an 88 key, weighted controller in my workspace for softsynth and module control. I prefer the keybed and pianos in the CP50 - vs. RH3, and the factory Kronos pianos. 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 So how many people here have completely maxed out the potential of their Yamaha XF? Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 So how many people here have completely maxed out the potential of their Yamaha XF? Heck, no one has yet maxed out the potential of an acoustic piano. That doesn't mean it's not good to have new options! I could be drawn to an XF7 replacement if they got the size/weight down (maybe move the wheels up above the keys like they did on the MOX8?) and replaced the flash board storage with streaming SSD storage. Bonus points for building in a decent clonewheel, or even having 9 faders for driving an external source. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekewaka Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 XF7s are nice -- but heavy. I try to stay below 25lbs equipment if possible as I can't afford to hire roadies and my back is my master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapper Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 So how many people here have completely maxed out the potential of their Yamaha XF? I have the motif XS and I didn't utilized yet even third of it's capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bif_ Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 So how many people here have completely maxed out the potential of their Yamaha XF? I have the motif XS and I didn't utilized yet even third of it's capabilities. Agreed. Even my Motif ES still amazes me at what it is capable of doing. And it has features that were removed from the XS and XF series (plugboards and step sequencing). While I appreciate the newer Motif's (as well as the Kronos) there's still not enough there that draws me to a newer instrument. Now the Casio PX-5S DOES have my interest....... Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 So how many people here have completely maxed out the potential of their Yamaha XF? I have the motif XS and I didn't utilized yet even third of it's capabilities. +1 and I Love the color as well... No one makes a workstation that color anymore... '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 So how many people here have completely maxed out the potential of their Yamaha XF? Heck, no one has yet maxed out the potential of an acoustic piano. That doesn't mean it's not good to have new options!Indeed. When Fortner asked who had gotten near maximum mileage out of their instruments, or at least one of them, my response was basically that - I still haven't maxed out an instrument with 'one' sound. The Motif series is getting old. It feels a lot like the Fantoms - a few new things mixed in with a TON of legacy. Sure, there's a lot of synthesis possibilities in all these modern boards, but as long as the sample sets are 10 years old (or MUCH more, hello Kurz), and as long as sample sets are the foundation of so much of what the workstation/monster synths are based on, then there's only so much maxing you'll get out of a broad section of the instrument for most applications. If a piano is limitless, a 3 or 4 or 16 layer piano sample is, quite simply, severely limited. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Like I posted in the NAMM thread--Yamaha Motifs, S90XSs, CP5/50/1s, MOXs and those new MXs, are far from being irrelevant to the general public. When I checked in at the Marriott and again at the end of the day, the lines were 3 deep to play those boards. Actually more buzz going on there then at the Korg booth...of course Korg didn't have their own dedicated room or as many keyboards on display to play. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Like I posted in the NAMM thread--Yamaha Motifs, S90XSs, CP5/50/1s, MOXs and those new MXs, are far from being irrelevant to the general public. When I checked in at the Marriott and again at the end of the day, the lines were 3 deep to play those boards. The general public doesn't know any better... When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRW Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 The hardware guys need to build stuff that sounds as good or better than software and has a UI and build quality that makes it a musical instrument. Funny you should say that. Some of the better workstations, like the XF, have sounds from a megabyte WaveROM that sound better than I've heard from Kontakt libraries that are tens of gigabytes. Plus, you don't have to wait minutes for them to load, they're right there at your fingertips. Or if you want to change sounds or do a small edit on the fly. Once you get the hang of it, the workflow in something like the Motif XF is more fluent than a mouse + computer system. Plus, it's obviously more "hands on" - a.ka more "musical", instrument-like. This is exactly why I bought hardware keyboards for the first time in years, last year. (In addition to the gigging aspect, obviously. I tried the MIDI keyboard + laptop route for a while...not fun). Yamaha always gets flak for supposedly "cryptic" and "hard" interfaces - I actually find the XF really straightforward and fluent to use, easier so than the Kronos. And it's not even a touch screen! The Motif way of constructing songs with Pattern Mode - or alternatively in Song Mode - is one of the easiest out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 In theory, I would think Kronos should hammer the Motif XF on sales due to the productss life cycle positions. Motif has been out on the market longer longer so buyers who will most likely buy one have already probably got one. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piano39 Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 The hardware guys need to build stuff that sounds as good or better than software and has a UI and build quality that makes it a musical instrument. Funny you should say that. Some of the better workstations, like the XF, have sounds from a megabyte WaveROM that sound better than I've heard from Kontakt libraries that are tens of gigabytes. Plus, you don't have to wait minutes for them to load, they're right there at your fingertips. Or if you want to change sounds or do a small edit on the fly. Once you get the hang of it, the workflow in something like the Motif XF is more fluent than a mouse + computer system. Plus, it's obviously more "hands on" - a.ka more "musical", instrument-like. This is exactly why I bought hardware keyboards for the first time in years, last year. (In addition to the gigging aspect, obviously. I tried the MIDI keyboard + laptop route for a while...not fun). Yamaha always gets flak for supposedly "cryptic" and "hard" interfaces - I actually find the XF really straightforward and fluent to use, easier so than the Kronos. And it's not even a touch screen! The Motif way of constructing songs with Pattern Mode - or alternatively in Song Mode - is one of the easiest out there. Couldn't agree with you more. Nothing kills the workflow more than having to grab a mouse between every take, etc. I used DAWs for about 15 years and Motifs for about 3 years. I can build a song way quicker on my Motif. Yamaha Motif XF6, Yamaha AN200, Logic Pro X, Arturia Microbrute, Behringer Model D, Yamaha UX-3 Acoustic Piano, assorted homemade synth modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yep. Korg and Yamaha could go "back to the future" and drop their Kronos and Motif workstation features Well, it would be nice to have a "Kronos LE" for those who don't need another sampler. (The Krome is just too basic for me). Include most of the Kronos synth engines and sequencer, with a smaller touch screen and basic keybed for about $1699. I guess you missed all of the Kronos 61s selling on Ebay in November and December for $1859 OBO that included the $200 rebate. In the end, I paid $1650 for one, NIB. Korg Kronos 61 (2); Kurzweil PC4, Roland Fantom-06, Casio PX-350M; 2015 Macbook Pro and 2012 Mac Mini (Logic Pro X and Mainstage), GigPerformer 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkFloydDudi Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Regarding yamaha, Motif provides still the best overall sounds package on the market so I don't see a reason why they should worry and hurry although I heard some rumors on motifator forum about Motif Z coming soon. Z like Zenith which basically means above everything... p.s. BTW I would take sweetwater comments with a wink. It is that exact thought process that allows someone else to come out ahead. "We think we are the best"...or "we are good enough". And now the stats will show them wrong. as far as this: .. Kronos outselling Motif XF?.. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see ... You really are in denial about this? Motif has been out for years and is old technology compared to the brand new Kronos line. The data from the sweetwater rep should be no surprise to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapper Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Motif has been out for years and is old technology compared to the brand new Kronos line. technology really doesn't matter when sound is not good enough, actually many older synths sound better then current ones. Motif sounds are simply better so why yamaha should worry? Besides the real number of all over the world sold units is not that easy to estimate. On stage I can see still more often motifs then kronos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 On stage I can see still more often motifs then kronos. I would expect that, regardless of current sales. They have been selling Motifs for ten years. Unlike a lot of us on this forum, a lot of players keep using the same stuff and don't change every time something new comes out. ;-) At any rate, Sweetwater and other major vendors let you sort their pages by "best selling" or "most popular" etc. I don't know how that's calculated... i.e. over the previous how many days, whether time-weighted, or whatever... but if you keep an eye on those, you should get some sense of what's out-selling what, for whatever that's worth... Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 I guess you missed all of the Kronos 61s selling on Ebay in November and December for $1859 OBO that included the $200 rebate. I had no idea. These were new Kronos keyboards? When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 Motif sounds are simply better Meh... Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. I have both a Motif XS and Korg M3. The Motif spends more time gathering dust in the studio. I just prefer the sounds and user interface of the M3. When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapper Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have both a Motif XS and Korg M3. The Motif spends more time gathering dust in the studio. well, at least motif is doing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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