Kronos outselling Motif XF?

[Synthoid]

Yamaha should really fire their UI designers and work flow engineers

 

The Yamaha Motif would definitely benefit from a better UI. After reading the above posts, it's clear that many of the user issues presented earlier in this thread can be overcome... but only with more menu diving and manual reading.

 

 

 

[MIDI2XS]

so this is something like Combi on Korg but even better.

I see how it is roughly equivalent, but in what sense is it better?

 

One remaining advantage of Combi mode is that the 16 sounds in a Combi can be a mix of internal and external sounds. In the Yamaha, if you want some of the sounds to be external (ipad, laptop, sound module, another keyboard) , you need to go to yet another mode, the Master mode.

 

It is possible to integrate the two modes, but I don't know how that might alter the functionality of what you can do, i.e. how the buttons can then be manipulated on the fly for turning on and off the different split/layered internal/external sounds, I've never tried that.

From the PDF for the Motif XF OS version 1.40:

 

New function of the [PERFORMANCE

CONTROL] button in the Master mode

 

When the Mode is set to Song or Pattern and Zone Switch is

set to on in the Master Play mode, the [PERFORMANCE

CONTROL] button works as follows:

[1] [8] buttons

Each of these will turn the Internal Switches of Zone 1 8 on/off.

[9] [16] buttons

Each of these will turn the External Switches of Zone 1 8 on/off.

NOTE The on/off status of the Internal Switch/External Switch can be

confirmed via the corresponding lamp.

 

[AnotherScott]

My personal "minimal" Kronos derivative would be a 73-key aftertouch-enabled unweighted board with CX-3 and streaming HD-1 engines at $2k-ish, including something close to real drawbar ergonomics. Streaming HD-1 can give you plenty of nice piano and EP, and you could mate it with a King Korg for more hands-on VA if desired. At that price, I think this would compete nicely with SK1, Nord Electro, Jupiter 50. Gotta keep it under 25 lbs, though!

 

I'm talking about five years out. It would have everything the Kronos has. No money is saved by taking functionality out of software. In fact the more you change, the more you have to put $$$s into retesting, redesign etc. It could run on whatever entry level Intel CPU/MB is available at that time. R&D have been recouped easily after five years.

 

The problem with a "stripped-down" Kronos today is that it would cost as much to make as the workstation.

I understand your point, but I was thinking more short-term than 5 years out... and I think that the stripped-down version I mentioned could actually cost noticeably less to manufacture than the current Kronos. They could scale back on the screen, take out the audio inputs and other sampling hardware, remove perhaps in the neighborhood of half of the front panel controls (including vector stick, ribbon, and numerous switches/knobs, along with the associated electronics behind them), go with an external power supply (I know, but the goal here is light weight and cost reduction), get rid of the digital I/O, cut the assignable outs from 4 to 2 (I still want 2!). So it's not simply a matter of removing zero-manufacturing-cost software. (And in fact, it would be ideal if they kept at least the EP engine in there, too.)

 

But I agree, the ability to offer the "complete" Kronos functionality at a lower price in the future is almost a given. Though even if they can make a cheaper Kronos before long, if its sales and competitive position remain strong, it may be to their benefit to keep selling it around the same price and also offer one or more cheaper, derivative versions. Along the same lines, the 16 gB iPad does not cost nearly as much less to manufacture compared to the 64 mb version as its retail price would imply. Sometimes it just makes sense to market your premium version for "what the market will bear" and offer lower cost versions to address other market segments, even if those lower cost versions don't actually cost you that much less to manufacture. You just try to capture whatever you can from each market segment.

[AnotherScott]

From the PDF for the Motif XF OS version 1.40:

 

New function of the [PERFORMANCE

CONTROL] button in the Master mode

 

When the Mode is set to Song or Pattern and Zone Switch is

set to on in the Master Play mode, the [PERFORMANCE

CONTROL] button works as follows:

[1] [8] buttons

Each of these will turn the Internal Switches of Zone 1 8 on/off.

[9] [16] buttons

Each of these will turn the External Switches of Zone 1 8 on/off.

NOTE The on/off status of the Internal Switch/External Switch can be

confirmed via the corresponding lamp.

Very interesting! So, how does this differ from how the [PERFORMANCE CONTROL] button worked before, in that same situation (Mode is set to Song or Pattern and Zone Switch is set to on in the Master Play mode)? Or didn't it do anything?

 

If I read this correctly, standard Song/Pattern Mix mode gives you 16 on/off buttons for 16 internal sounds; and using this Master mode functionality, the same 16 buttons give you on/off control for 8 internal and 8 external sounds.

 

That would still seem to lag behind the Kronos Combi approach, where the 16 sounds can be any combination (15 internal and 1 external, or 1 internal and 15 external, or anything in between, instead of maxing at no more than 8 internal sounds if you're using any external ones, or 8 external sounds if you're using any internal ones). Also, although the Yamaha is giving you access to 16 sounds, it is still 8 zones, so if you actually programmed 16 sounds this way, each Internal sound must share a keyboard range with an external sound. On the Korg, each of the 16 sounds has its own key range.

 

OTOH, if I've got my modes and buttons straight, on the Korg, any internal sound in the combi that you turn off still uses up polyphony, whereas on the Yamaha, it does not. (Maybe someone can confirm or refute that...) Also, for fast sound switching, the 16 hard buttons on a Yamaha are quicker to navigate than 16 on-screen buttons on the Kronos, and more foolproof, I think that's pretty significant. Korg could use a screen that just contains 16 big buttons for this purpose. Hitting the little enable/disable function buttons on a Korg screen is not so nicely usable for live performance.

 

 

[Nigeth]

The Oasys was nearly twice the price of a Kronos so they already drove down the price significantly.

 

Also the Krome and the King Korg show how flexible the Kronos platform can be. That's a significant advantage for Korg

[AnotherScott]

Also the Krome and the King Korg show how flexible the Kronos platform can be. That's a significant advantage for Korg

I don't think the Krome or King Korg are really Kronos based, though.

[BRW]

Yamaha should really fire their UI designers and work flow engineers

 

The Yamaha Motif would definitely benefit from a better UI. After reading the above posts, it's clear that many of the user issues presented earlier in this thread can be overcome... but only with more menu diving and manual reading.

 

 

 

I don't know, man.

 

Like I said earlier in this thread, I've never had any problems with them. Even on the earlier ES series, which had one of those monochrome LCD screens from the 90's, when competing products (Fantom-X) had bigger, color screens. Sequencing, and all. Yes, their products have a learning curve, but what products don't?

 

I agree, that they can sometimes be a bit "quirky". In the sense of, "why must this be done this way?" - but all those big name products have similar quirks, that are done better on the other.

 

*

 

I'm not entirely convinced about Motif's Song Mode or 'Mix Mode' as a replacement for bigger combis/performances. First of all, changing "patches" (Songs, essentially, correct?) is cumbersome. Second, you can't have an arpeggiator running 16 x, can you? (I could be wrong, haven't tested it).

 

*

[DanS]

Well you learn something new everyday. This thread may have just saved me some serious cash. I have a PC3K7 on order, but now that I realize, (and checked) that you can indeed have 16 parts layered/split in Multi mode on the Yammies, I may just cancel the order. I was also opting for the weight factor as well, but now I'm not sure that it's worth it. I still have to check the 8 internal & 8 external parts for functionality. In Setup mode you just call up the Multi instead of a Voice or Performance. Don't know why this never clicked before.

Thanks!

[MIDI2XS]

From the PDF for the Motif XF OS version 1.40:

 

New function of the [PERFORMANCE

CONTROL] button in the Master mode

 

When the Mode is set to Song or Pattern and Zone Switch is

set to on in the Master Play mode, the [PERFORMANCE

CONTROL] button works as follows:

[1] [8] buttons

Each of these will turn the Internal Switches of Zone 1 8 on/off.

[9] [16] buttons

Each of these will turn the External Switches of Zone 1 8 on/off.

NOTE The on/off status of the Internal Switch/External Switch can be

confirmed via the corresponding lamp.

Very interesting! So, how does this differ from how the [PERFORMANCE CONTROL] button worked before, in that same situation (Mode is set to Song or Pattern and Zone Switch is set to on in the Master Play mode)? Or didn't it do anything?

 

If I read this correctly, standard Song/Pattern Mix mode gives you 16 on/off buttons for 16 internal sounds; and using this Master mode functionality, the same 16 buttons give you on/off control for 8 internal and 8 external sounds.

 

That would still seem to lag behind the Kronos Combi approach, where the 16 sounds can be any combination (15 internal and 1 external, or 1 internal and 15 external, or anything in between, instead of maxing at no more than 8 internal sounds if you're using any external ones, or 8 external sounds if you're using any internal ones). Also, although the Yamaha is giving you access to 16 sounds, it is still 8 zones, so if you actually programmed 16 sounds this way, each Internal sound must share a keyboard range with an external sound. On the Korg, each of the 16 sounds has its own key range.

 

OTOH, if I've got my modes and buttons straight, on the Korg, any internal sound in the combi that you turn off still uses up polyphony, whereas on the Yamaha, it does not. (Maybe someone can confirm or refute that...) Also, for fast sound switching, the 16 hard buttons on a Yamaha are quicker to navigate than 16 on-screen buttons on the Kronos, and more foolproof, I think that's pretty significant. Korg could use a screen that just contains 16 big buttons for this purpose. Hitting the little enable/disable function buttons on a Korg screen is not so nicely usable for live performance.

 

Previously you had to go into Edit mode to turn a Zone on/off, which is not exactly convenient for live play. Now pressing [PERFORMANCE CONTROL] activates a function that allows direct access to that capability via the 16 numbered buttons.

 

Yes - there are sixteen Parts, but only eight Zones. The new function makes it easy to choose whether a Zone is active internally, externally, both, or neither. You're correct that the Note Limits (key range) set for each Zone will apply both internally and externally. By correctly setting up MIDI receive channels on external gear, you can have control of a 16 separate sounds in total (eight internal, eight external). But because each Zone can be easily turned on/off independently for both internal and external, it opens up a lot of choices for layering of various sounds as well.

 

[burningbusch]

Also, for fast sound switching, the 16 hard buttons on a Yamaha are quicker to navigate than 16 on-screen buttons on the Kronos, and more foolproof, I think that's pretty significant. Korg could use a screen that just contains 16 big buttons for this purpose. Hitting the little enable/disable function buttons on a Korg screen is not so nicely usable for live performance.

 

 

The buttons, faders and knobs on the Kronos (I believe all Korgs since the Triton) are available for controlling combi parts. They default to that mode in most factory combis. You don't have to use the screen.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

I guess Kurzweil PC3 still beats them both overall with its 16 fx.

 

I was thinking about this and I don't recall that Kurzweil gives you an EQ with each program or each of the 16 timbres in a combi/performance. On the Kronos you have this and I believe the Yamaha does as well. That would be significant as it's hard to find a program that doesn't use EQ to some degree. Also, as I pointed out you can get to more than 16 overal FXs without too much effort on the Kronos if you would ever need such a number. I do like the fact that Kruzweil has essentially one mode. That makes for a very versatile, powerful environment.

 

Busch.

[AnotherScott]

I was thinking about this and I don't recall that Kurzweil gives you an EQ with each program or each of the 16 timbres in a combi/performance.

If I remember correctly, EQ is implemented as a DSP effect. So yes, you can put an EQ on each program (and on each of the 16 parts in a setup)... but each separate use of such an EQ uses up one of your 16 available FX. (The global EQ or an EQ applied to an entire Setup is separate from any of that.) So you can do what you want, but it's nice that on the Kronos you can do that without using up fx.

 

The buttons, faders and knobs on the Kronos (I believe all Korgs since the Triton) are available for controlling combi parts. They default to that mode in most factory combis. You don't have to use the screen.

Ah! Thanks for the info.

 

[Synthoid]

I'm not entirely convinced about Motif's Song Mode or 'Mix Mode' as a replacement for bigger combis/performances. First of all, changing "patches" (Songs, essentially, correct?) is cumbersome. Second, you can't have an arpeggiator running 16 x, can you?

 

I don't think so... never tried, but doubt it.

[zapper]

I'm not entirely convinced about Motif's Song Mode or 'Mix Mode' as a replacement for bigger combis/performances. First of all, changing "patches" (Songs, essentially, correct?) is cumbersome. Second, you can't have an arpeggiator running 16 x, can you?

 

I don't think so... never tried, but doubt it.

 

I don't see why not but I will try it. Regarding patches why changing them is cumbersome? you have numeric buttons assign to that.

[BRW]

Guys I've been experimenting with Motif XF's Song Mode and yes it does seem you can run multiple arpeggiators at the same time. Don't know what good would it be to run all 16, but at least more than 4... I suppose this is how Kay managed to get KARMA sort of working on the Motif. (This is beginning to veer off topic, but I thought I'd post)

 

The only problem is - you can't switch Arps like you can in Performance Mode. If anyone has a solution to this, let me know. With those 'Scenes', perhaps...? (I've yet to understand how they work)

 

I suppose you could run into a polyphony snag if you use Voices that use a lot of 'Elements'.

 

And I guess the idea is to create a Master set with these, you can add Songs as Master "patches".

[AnotherScott]

The Yamaha Motif would definitely benefit from a better UI. After reading the above posts, it's clear that many of the user issues presented earlier in this thread can be overcome... but only with more menu diving and manual reading.

I don't know, man.

 

Like I said earlier in this thread, I've never had any problems with them.

...

I'm not entirely convinced about Motif's Song Mode or 'Mix Mode' as a replacement for bigger combis/performances. First of all, changing "patches" (Songs, essentially, correct?) is cumbersome.

Selecting a different Song/Pattern is no more cumbersome than selecting a different Voice or a different Performance, it's the same process. Once you select the mode (Voice/Performance/Song/Pattern), you use the same buttons on the right to pick which Song/Pattern you want as you would to pick which Voice or Performance. But maybe this would have been more clear if Yamaha had better UI and/or manuals. ;-)

[zapper]

Guys I've been experimenting with Motif XF's Song Mode and yes it does seem you can run multiple arpeggiators at the same time. Don't know what good would it be to run all 16, but at least more than 4... I suppose this is how Kay managed to get KARMA sort of working on the Motif.

 

That's awesome, motif xs/xf is even more powerful then i thought...

Again, yamaha should read this thread. I'll bet more then 80% of motif owners

Have no idea about these features.

[Fusker]

The general theme here for me is, nothing has compelled me to switch out of my XS yet. Probably why you still see so many ES's on stage. Again, if Yamaha had a more human oriented interface, people would start using more than the 30% of the capabilities they now use.

[ProfD]

I have a Yamaha ES8. I've played both the XS or XF. I didn't hear enough out of either one compelling me to "ugprade".

 

I've played the Kronos a few times. It has a lot of sounds under the hood but again, nothing about it compels me to buy one.

 

Nowadays, I hear very playable sounds in DPs and ROMplers that are half the price of a Motif or Kronos.

 

The manufacturers are already repackaging the same "old" sounds with more ROM and effects.

 

That's why I believe in 5 years or so, there will be a Kronos and Motif module containing their library of sounds and workstation features.

[zapper]

That's why I believe in 5 years or so, there will be a Kronos and Motif module containing their library of sounds and workstation features.

 

you mean Kron-Mot module

[Synthoid]

Again, if Yamaha had a more human oriented interface, people would start using more than the 30% of the capabilities they now use.

 

This.

 

However, in all fairness, I should spend more time with my Motif XS and get past the 30% mark...

 

 

[zapper]

Again, if Yamaha had a more human oriented interface, people would start using more than the 30% of the capabilities they now use.

 

This.

 

However, in all fairness, I should spend more time with my Motif XS and get past the 30% mark...

 

 

we're still young, we'll get there eventually...

[MikeT156]

On stage I can see still more often motifs then kronos.

I would expect that, regardless of current sales. They have been selling Motifs for ten years. Unlike a lot of us on this forum, a lot of players keep using the same stuff and don't change every time something new comes out. ;-)

 

Forgive me for being late to this party-very interesting topic.

 

Like Prof D, I have a Motif ES8 and when the latest rendition of the Motif came out, I thought seriously about upgrading. There are a few considerations that come into play other than the $$$ to buy a new board.

 

1. I would have to learn yet another user interface. Although it is somewhat similar to the ES8, it is certainly not the same. Sounds have different names and are in different locations. When it comes to Yamaha boards, that takes time.

2. Being that I sequenced 95% of my songs, upgrading would mean having to edit every song I sequenced and try to match up the sounds and their LOCATION on my KB and re-save every song. For a number of songs, I used sampled sounds and sound effects in my songs that loaded with each song and were saved with each existing set.

 

I worked on creating, editing, remixing my sequences for years as I built an extensive song list so I could take gigs as a one-man band, a completely self contained musical act.

 

The amount of time it would take me to re-do my long list was a large factor in deciding to pass on upgrading. And at my age (65) I am unwilling to spend my time re-doing music that I labored at for years.

 

I don't gig any more, and I would rather spend my time enjoying the music I did on the "old" ES8, or just sitting down and enjoying an instrument that still plays well and sounds good.

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

Mike T.

[Synthoid]

Again, if Yamaha had a more human oriented interface, people would start using more than the 30% of the capabilities they now use.

 

This.

 

However, in all fairness, I should spend more time with my Motif XS and get past the 30% mark...

 

 

we're still young, we'll get there eventually...

 

Well, I took the XS out of its case a couple days ago and am having a blast with it! There are some great sounds in there... many I'd forgotten about. I even found a couple of old sequences I had saved on-board.

 

Already have the beginnings of a few new songs.

 

[piano39]

On stage I can see still more often motifs then kronos.

I would expect that, regardless of current sales. They have been selling Motifs for ten years. Unlike a lot of us on this forum, a lot of players keep using the same stuff and don't change every time something new comes out. ;-)

 

Forgive me for being late to this party-very interesting topic.

 

Like Prof D, I have a Motif ES8 and when the latest rendition of the Motif came out, I thought seriously about upgrading. There are a few considerations that come into play other than the $$$ to buy a new board.

 

1. I would have to learn yet another user interface. Although it is somewhat similar to the ES8, it is certainly not the same. Sounds have different names and are in different locations. When it comes to Yamaha boards, that takes time.

2. Being that I sequenced 95% of my songs, upgrading would mean having to edit every song I sequenced and try to match up the sounds and their LOCATION on my KB and re-save every song. For a number of songs, I used sampled sounds and sound effects in my songs that loaded with each song and were saved with each existing set.

 

I worked on creating, editing, remixing my sequences for years as I built an extensive song list so I could take gigs as a one-man band, a completely self contained musical act.

 

The amount of time it would take me to re-do my long list was a large factor in deciding to pass on upgrading. And at my age (65) I am unwilling to spend my time re-doing music that I labored at for years.

 

I don't gig any more, and I would rather spend my time enjoying the music I did on the "old" ES8, or just sitting down and enjoying an instrument that still plays well and sounds good.

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

Mike T.

 

For what it's worth, I have an ES6 and bought an XF6 about six months ago.

The larger color screen on the XF makes a lot of things easier. Yamaha did a good job of expanding the category search function to make it easier to use, even for performances, arps, etc.

Some things, like copying performances to patterns, are maybe 10 times easier.

I played my eS6 a few days ago and discovered that the XF screen is a huge improvement. Had a hard time backtracking.

That being said, the learning curve was too steep for both machines. There were several things that I could do on the ES blindfolded, but had to do lots of manual searching on the XF. Oh, well.

[MikeT156]

I did spend some time on the XF when I was considering upgrading. No question that the larger color screen makes life a lot easier on the XF. However, the amount of time re-doing all my songs is not how I want to spend my time, we only get so much of it while we are here!

 

Cheers!

 

 

Mike T.

[TreevisB]

Responding to the earlier comment about the motif xs/xf and karma. The relatively new KARMA 3.0 is available for motif xs/xf. It is the newest version of karma made specifically for the motif xs/xf. It runs on laptop or desktop and run seamlessly through USB connection and motif xs/xf running in remote mode.

[TreevisB]

On another note, I have had no problems with my motif xs over the yea,rs and it continues to provide inspiration. The motif community at motifator.com continues to support my endeavours and my motif xs. In my opinion, Yamaha is striving, and succeeding, towards complete hardware/software integration. And they have the best sounds on the market. U just have to know how to use them.

[ManInTheBox]

And they have the best sounds on the market.

 

Debatable.

 

But I do like what they're doing with the hardware/software integration.

 

That said, I've been watching the prices on the XF & it does not appear that Yamaha is hurting for sales. I'd imagine if they weren't selling the units they want, the price would come down.

 

They're not.

 

So yes, Korg's got their thing going with Kronos, & Roland's Supernatural is their thing....

 

Obviously there are enough people content with the direction Yamaha is going.

 

I'm "stuck" on the Roland Fantom, looking at possibly buying a new workstation. In my mind, the XF is right there with the Jupiter & the Kronos.

[Synthoid]

And they have the best sounds on the market.

 

Debatable.

 

Agreed, but let's not.