Kronos outselling Motif XF?

[Bill W]

I guess you missed all of the Kronos 61s selling on Ebay in November and December for $1859 OBO that included the $200 rebate.

 

I had no idea. These were new Kronos keyboards?

 

 

They were advertised as new. Unique Squared and Pro Audio Star both had gobs of them.

[Synthoid]

I guess you missed all of the Kronos 61s selling on Ebay in November and December for $1859 OBO that included the $200 rebate.

 

I had no idea. These were new Kronos keyboards?

 

 

They were advertised as new. Unique Squared and Pro Audio Star both had gobs of them.

 

Oh well...

[Leh173]

The hardware guys need to build stuff that sounds as good or better than software and has a UI and build quality that makes it a musical instrument.

 

Funny you should say that.

 

Some of the better workstations, like the XF, have sounds from a megabyte WaveROM that sound better than I've heard from Kontakt libraries that are tens of gigabytes.

 

Plus, you don't have to wait minutes for them to load, they're right there at your fingertips. Or if you want to change sounds or do a small edit on the fly.

 

Once you get the hang of it, the workflow in something like the Motif XF is more fluent than a mouse + computer system. Plus, it's obviously more "hands on" - a.ka more "musical", instrument-like. This is exactly why I bought hardware keyboards for the first time in years, last year. (In addition to the gigging aspect, obviously. I tried the MIDI keyboard + laptop route for a while...not fun).

 

Yamaha always gets flak for supposedly "cryptic" and "hard" interfaces - I actually find the XF really straightforward and fluent to use, easier so than the Kronos. And it's not even a touch screen!

 

The Motif way of constructing songs with Pattern Mode - or alternatively in Song Mode - is one of the easiest out there.

 

I agree, I had a similar experience when I bought the Fantom G. I got it as a do it all replacement for my laptop rig for live work (with the eye to still USB in a laptop if required) and I expected the sounds to be nowhere near my awesome plug ins etc and you know what, in some sound areas there really wasn't much in it, and I'd say live in a loud band the Fantom sounds better! I also like the quick boot time of the Fantom (I only use it's internal memory live) and the fact I don't have a laptop, audio interface, midi interface, usb keys and a tacky MIDI controller to worry about. I don't miss the latency either. So I'd be happy to see hardware catch up in it's own way to what computers offer. Honestly I think with the Kronos and Jupiter-80 engine, we're pretty much almost there now. Personally I think we're a bit too swayed by computers these days and this is from a software sequencer guy how always thought hardware/workstation sequencer based products were a waste of time.

[Synthoid]

So how many people here have completely maxed out the potential of their Yamaha XF?

 

I have the motif XS and I didn't utilized yet even third of it's capabilities.

 

I haven't either, and I've had the XS for over four years now. I definitely need to spend more time with it.

 

One major bone to pick with Yamaha though is, you can't overwrite the factory voices. You can only edit them and save in the user banks. Every one of my other synths and workstations allow overwriting of all factory sounds. Eeesh.

[zapper]

One major bone to pick with Yamaha though is, you can't overwrite the factory voices. You can only edit them and save in the user banks. Every one of my other synths and workstations allow overwriting of all factory sounds. Eeesh.

 

for me the problem is still logic flow of that workstation,

sure is better then ES but no way close to e.g. fantom X

programming where recording was a joy. Without manual and motifator forum it's hard to figure how to do something.

 

[Synthoid]

Without manual and motifator forum it's hard to figure how to do something.

 

If you don't have the manual, you can always download a .PDF copy from Yamaha.

 

[zapper]

If you don't have the manual, you can always download a .PDF copy from Yamaha.

 

I have manual, I meant I'd like UI and workflow to be so intuitive so I don't have to use manual

 

[felix]

So the Kronos is actually in the lead with sales over the Motif XF (something I recently heard from a Sweetwater rep). I'm just wondering when Yamaha will bring a "game changer" of their own to market.

 

Perhaps it's just a pet peeve of mine, but Yamaha used to produce some highly innovative synths in the past. Now all we see are updated versions (and spinoffs) of the Motif. I guess they don't mind "sitting on their hands," so to speak.

 

Yes, synthesizers and workstations are only a small part of their total sales, but I'd just like to see Yamaha produce something exciting again.

 

Full disclosure - I'm the keyboard buyer at Sweetwater. A few clarifications from my point of view:

 

1. Workstations still sell. Better than I would have predicted they'd be selling today if you'd asked me 10 years ago. I don't think they'll be going away.

 

2. Sales of any particular product fluctuate. Sweetwater doesn't publicly share detailed sales data, but I can tell you that Korg Kronos has been our bestselling workstation at times, as so has Yamaha Motif XF (and yes, Yamaha Motif XF still sells very well). For that matter, Yamaha MOX series & Korg Krome also sell very well (at times, their unit sales have surpassed their older siblings) - and don't forget about Kurzweil, Roland, and others.

 

Anyone can easily see how our keyboard workstation sales have stacked up recently - it's how the products get ranked on this page.

 

Most importantly, I think any buying decision should be based on what your personal preferences are and what capabilities you and your music requires of the instrument.

 

That said, I don't think you'll find anyone in this forum who wouldn't like to see the announcement of some awesome new Yamaha workstation. I think we'd all be safe in assuming that will happen ... someday.

[therealvicz]

So the Kronos is actually in the lead with sales over the Motif XF (something I recently heard from a Sweetwater rep). I'm just wondering when Yamaha will bring a "game changer" of their own to market.

 

Perhaps it's just a pet peeve of mine, but Yamaha used to produce some highly innovative synths in the past. Now all we see are updated versions (and spinoffs) of the Motif. I guess they don't mind "sitting on their hands," so to speak.

 

Yes, synthesizers and workstations are only a small part of their total sales, but I'd just like to see Yamaha produce something exciting again.

 

Full disclosure - I'm the keyboard buyer at Sweetwater. A few clarifications from my point of view:

 

1. Workstations still sell. Better than I would have predicted they'd be selling today if you'd asked me 10 years ago. I don't think they'll be going away.

 

2. Sales of any particular product fluctuate. Sweetwater doesn't publicly share detailed sales data, but I can tell you that Korg Kronos has been our bestselling workstation at times, as so has Yamaha Motif XF (and yes, Yamaha Motif XF still sells very well). For that matter, Yamaha MOX series & Korg Krome also sell very well (at times, their unit sales have surpassed their older siblings) - and don't forget about Kurzweil, Roland, and others.

 

Anyone can easily see how our keyboard workstation sales have stacked up recently - it's how the products get ranked on this page.

 

Most importantly, I think any buying decision should be based on what your personal preferences are and what capabilities you and your music requires of the instrument.

 

That said, I don't think you'll find anyone in this forum who wouldn't like to see the announcement of some awesome new Yamaha workstation. I think we'd all be safe in assuming that will happen ... someday.

 

Fascinating insight, thanks. I'd been wondering about workstation sales for a while. For me the real surprise is the OP-1 I thought this was mostly an expensive toy.

[zapper]

1. Workstations still sell. Better than I would have predicted they'd be selling today if you'd asked me 10 years ago. I don't think they'll be going away.

 

completely agree - nothing is better then al-in-one workstation for composing on the go, playing along or as quick scratch pad.

Workstation definitely won't go away, especially those small ones like jubo-g or gi

 

[AnotherScott]

I think one reason "workstation" still sells so well is that you often can't get a company's best sounds and gigging functionality (quality keybed, versatile controller setup) unless you buy their "workstations". I have no desire for a multitrack sequencer in any of my boards, yet I own multiple.

[Moonglow]

I think one reason "workstation" still sells so well is that you often can't get a company's best sounds and gigging functionality (quality keybed, versatile controller setup) unless you buy their "workstations". I have no desire for a multitrack sequencer in any of my boards, yet I own multiple.

+1

 

The Jupiter-80 does buck this trend a little, although it doesn't feature the V-Pianos (nor weighted action).

[zapper]

I think one reason "workstation" still sells so well is that you often can't get a company's best sounds and gigging functionality (quality keybed, versatile controller setup) unless you buy their "workstations".

 

-1, this is maybe one of many reasons but not the only one for sure plus your statement is not entirely true. You can always get a rack module version etc.

[PinkFloydDudi]

Motif has been out for years and is old technology compared to the brand new Kronos line.

 

technology really doesn't matter when sound is not good enough, actually many older synths sound better then current ones. Motif sounds are simply better so why yamaha should worry?

I disagree with that statement. And I'll leave it at that for this thread.

Besides the real number of all over the world sold units is not that easy to estimate. On stage I can see still more often motifs then kronos.

10 years vs 1 year...of course you will see more motifs on stage.

But how many of the new Motif do you see? I think I've seen 1.

Major professional keyboard players have endless time spent programming sounds, setlists, sequences, etc... Just because you see more of a certain brand on stage doesn't mean it is the better keyboard.

[PinkFloydDudi]

1. Workstations still sell. Better than I would have predicted they'd be selling today if you'd asked me 10 years ago. I don't think they'll be going away.

 

completely agree - nothing is better then al-in-one workstation for composing on the go, playing along or as quick scratch pad.

Workstation definitely won't go away, especially those small ones like jubo-g or gi

 

Agreed. I will surely be called old-fashioned one day because of that belief, but I just like workstations a lot better than PC/controller setups.

[burningbusch]

I think one reason "workstation" still sells so well is that you often can't get a company's best sounds and gigging functionality (quality keybed, versatile controller setup) unless you buy their "workstations".

 

-1, this is maybe one of many reasons but not the only one for sure plus your statement is not entirely true. You can always get a rack module version etc.

 

You can't buy a rack of the Kronos, Motif XF or Fantom G. Most people who buy the Kronos do so for the engines and advanced sampling. There are a few who have fought (on the Korg forum) for advanced sequencing but it's always the same few and it has gained little traction.

 

I haven't used workstation sequencing in forever.

 

Busch.

[Dana.]

I think one reason "workstation" still sells so well is that you often can't get a company's best sounds and gigging functionality (quality keybed, versatile controller setup) unless you buy their "workstations".

 

-1, this is maybe one of many reasons but not the only one for sure plus your statement is not entirely true. You can always get a rack module version etc.

Scott said one reason, not the only reason. You just zapped yourself.

[Ekewaka]

I guess I'm a heretic but in studio/recording and even writing songs, I'm far more productive with a DAW. Plus I could fine-tune the sounds to the extreme with various plug-ins and settings. As for sequencing with a DAW, beats most workstations big time, no time to be deep inside LCD menus....

 

And there's something cool about opening up 5+ year old projects and continue tweaking the SW synths from where I left them at.

 

As for live, having a good synthesizer or keyboard is really good even if I use Mainstage a lot nowadays. Basically I use anything that sounds good.

[zapper]

You can't buy a rack of the Kronos, Motif XF or Fantom G.

 

really? you have motif XS module which sound wise is almost identical to XF. Also you have roland integra which has same or even better sounds then fantom G. Regarding korg so far we have M3 module which BTW is not that far behind the so called kronos "engine" IMO, at least when you listen to it not reading about it.

[Synthoid]

For me the real surprise is the OP-1 I thought this was mostly an expensive toy.

 

It is hopelessly overpriced, though.

[Synthoid]

You can't buy a rack of the Kronos, Motif XF or Fantom G.

 

really? you have motif XS module which sound wise is almost identical to XF. Also you have roland integra which has same or even better sounds then fantom G. Regarding korg so far we have M3 module which BTW is not that far behind the so called kronos "engine" IMO, at least when you listen to it not reading about it.

 

The stock Korg M3M only offers EDS synthesis derived from the Oasys... no other synth engines are available except the EXB-Radias. Not a fair comparison.

[Ekewaka]

A rack system with a light-weight MIDI controller is a very interesting gig system. Transportation is easy, too.

[CEB]

I have a silly question. Do all "Workstations" have multitrack sequencers? I thought that was the defining characteristic but I have seen a lot of net references to the S90XS being a 'workstation'. I have also seen it listed under stage pianos, synthesizer, etc....

 

I never had any use for a workstation sequencers after failing to find a use for my first one but I've owned a couple because they come with tons of sounds and tend to be good at building performance setups.

[ProfD]

I have a silly question. Do all "Workstations" have multitrack sequencers? I thought that was the defining characteristic but I have seen a lot of net references to the S90XS being a 'workstation'. I have also seen it listed under stage pianos, synthesizer, etc....

The sequencer and sampling if included are the defining characteristics of a KB workstation. The S90XS is definitely not one. It is just a ROMpler.

[CEB]

That's what I thought. Thanks.

[zapper]

according to Wiki:

A music workstation is an electronic musical instrument providing the facilities of: a sound module, a music sequencer and(usually) a musical keyboard.

[Moonglow]

I think one reason "workstation" still sells so well is that you often can't get a company's best sounds and gigging functionality (quality keybed, versatile controller setup) unless you buy their "workstations".

 

-1, this is maybe one of many reasons but not the only one for sure plus your statement is not entirely true. You can always get a rack module version etc.

A rack module certainly can contain a manufacturer's best sounds. However, Scott also referenced "gigging functionality" which included a quality keybed and controller functions, attributes obviously not found in a rack. Not to mention that some people don't like using racks....

 

So I think the basic point is that in order to obtain a keyboard containing a manufacturer's best sounds and live performance functions, folks often have to "suck it up" (i.e., purchase features they don't need) and buy a workstation.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

In addition to what others have said...

 

you have motif XS module which sound wise is almost identical to XF.

The XS module does not give you Yamaha's best sounds, unless you mean their best sounds of 2007. It has 355 mb of samples in it. The XF has 741, plus another 400 you can load into it (their free "Inspiration in a Flash" library, which you can load in either by about 100 at a time, or you can buy an optional flash card to keep them all loaded simultaneously), not to mention all the third party libraries.

 

Regarding korg so far we have M3 module which BTW is not that far behind the so called kronos "engine" IMO, at least when you listen to it not reading about it.

The (discontinued) M3 module has a reduced quality and older version of one of the nine Kronos engines, and no sample streaming. But regardless of that, the M3, too, is a workstation!

 

Like I said, if you want their best, you have to buy their workstations.

[allan_evett]

......

 

Like I said, if you want their best, you have to buy their workstations.

 

Fortunately Roland has started to move away from that, with the introduction of the JP80 and JP50. The Yamaha MX's are a step in the right direction, though I'd rather see something with the depth, sample/sound flexibility and performance options of the Motif XS or XF, not to mention a keyboard option beyond 61 keys. It's too bad Yamaha and Korg haven't offered the option of 'performance only' versions of their flagship synths. I've hated having to pay for a on-board recording studio that I don't use.

[AnotherScott]

Fortunately Roland has started to move away from that, with the introduction of the JP80 and JP50.

Yup, Roland is an exception. Oddly, at the moment, their best sounds aren't in a keyboard at all--neither the Jupiters nor Fantom G--but rather in their Integra rack! Kurzweil is also pretty good in having almost all the sounds of their top PC3-series models available in their non-workstation SP-series models, though there are also compromises in keybed and control functionality.

 

The Yamaha MX's are a step in the right direction, though I'd rather see something with the depth, sample/sound flexibility and performance options of the Motif XS or XF, not to mention a keyboard option beyond 61 keys.

Yes, I like the idea of the MX as well, even though the sound set is still compromised. Lightweight, with all the stuff you don't need for gigging taken out. A 73 key version with aftertouch and the ability to include MIDI Program Changes in its presets would have been enough to tempt me to buy one.

 

It's too bad Yamaha and Korg haven't offered the option of 'performance only' versions of their flagship synths. I've hated having to pay for a on-board recording studio that I don't use.

It is frustrating that the lower end lightweight travel-friendly "performance" versions of their boards (Krome, M50, and prior to the MX, what Yamaha did with MOX) still tend to have workstation features we don't need, while taking out useful performance features like aftertouch, assignable outs, and performance control options like ribbons or pedal jacks.