Kronos outselling Motif XF?

[zapper]

In addition to what others have said...

 

you have motif XS module which sound wise is almost identical to XF.

The XS module does not give you Yamaha's best sounds, unless you mean their best sounds of 2007. It has 355 mb of samples in it. The XF has 741, plus another 400 you can load into it (their free "Inspiration in a Flash" library, which you can load in either by about 100 at a time, or you can buy an optional flash card to keep them all loaded simultaneously), not to mention all the third party libraries.

 

Don't agree, we were talking about sound engine which IS basically the same. More sounds you can also load to XS provided you have installed RAM. Sure it's less convenient then loading into flash memory but you can and I do. XF instead doesn't have enough sampling memory as XS does. Besides, more sounds doesn't mean better.

 

[MIDI2XS]

In addition to what others have said...

 

you have motif XS module which sound wise is almost identical to XF.

The XS module does not give you Yamaha's best sounds, unless you mean their best sounds of 2007. It has 355 mb of samples in it. The XF has 741, plus another 400 you can load into it (their free "Inspiration in a Flash" library, which you can load in either by about 100 at a time, or you can buy an optional flash card to keep them all loaded simultaneously), not to mention all the third party libraries.

 

Don't agree, we were talking about sound engine which IS basically the same. More sounds you can also load to XS provided you have installed RAM. Sure it's less convenient then loading into flash memory but you can and I do. XF instead doesn't have enough sampling memory as XS does. Besides, more sounds doesn't mean better.

Optional RAM (DIMMs) can be added to the keyboard version(s) of the XS, but not to the Rack XS. Any "new" voices have to be based on the sample waveforms already existing in ROM.

 

The XF comes standard with 128MB of User RAM. An XS6/7/8 can have up to 2GB of DIMMS installed, while an XF can have that amount of optional non-volatile flash memory.

 

[RABid]

Starting with the old Fantom 76, I've always wanted a workstation as the hart of my system. Good workstations are better controllers than any dedicated controller I have tried. Setting up layers and zones, controlling external MIDI devices, putting everything you need for a song in one memory location. Roland and Korg made it easy. I almost never use a sequencer for composing but it is nice to have the option to play back a MIDI file.

 

Korg really went in a good direction by giving us multiple engines at an affordable price on the Kronos. I wish Roland had done more of that with their latest offerings. It is nice they put in the GAIA engine but they should have added their organ as an available engine.

[J. Dan]

You kind of touch on a problem I've had with a controller/module or controller/laptop scenario. No matter how many controls - sliders, knobs, buttons, wheels, sticks - you have, they have to be assigned - mapped - to something, and aren't necessarily laid out ideally, and you have no feedback through the UI as to what's really going on in the module or laptop....which means for performance, ideally the module or laptop needs to be within sight/reach. That's the biggest reason I've stuck with a workstation. The controls and UI are dedicated to their designed purpose and give you direct local indication/feedback. Plus, there's not a controller or module on the planet with a built in sequencer, which makes sequencing impossible with a straight controller/module scenario.

 

All that being said, I still haven't gotten used to the Kronos panel controls outside of the sliders for drawbars on the CX3 engine. They seem more like you would get on a generic controller. They have the assignment buttons and panel markings to show dedicated purpose, but they are hard to see/read and I just haven't gotten familiar with them. Maybe I just need to spend more time practicing with them.

[Steve Force]

Perhaps more practice; however, when I had a Kronos I wasn't very impressed with their touch screen--layout, usability, visability, anything. Probably it is an evolutionary--the next generation will be better.

[Synthoid]

when I had a Kronos I wasn't very impressed with their touch screen--layout, usability, visability, anything. Probably it is an evolutionary--the next generation will be better.

 

I hope they improve it. I've played one several times and the screen was rather fiddly.

[AnotherScott]

In addition to what others have said...

 

you have motif XS module which sound wise is almost identical to XF.

The XS module does not give you Yamaha's best sounds, unless you mean their best sounds of 2007. It has 355 mb of samples in it. The XF has 741, plus another 400 you can load into it (their free "Inspiration in a Flash" library, which you can load in either by about 100 at a time, or you can buy an optional flash card to keep them all loaded simultaneously), not to mention all the third party libraries.

 

Don't agree, we were talking about sound engine which IS basically the same. More sounds you can also load to XS provided you have installed RAM. Sure it's less convenient then loading into flash memory but you can and I do. XF instead doesn't have enough sampling memory as XS does. Besides, more sounds doesn't mean better.

You cannot install any additional RAM into the Rack XS, nor does it come with any. There is no way to add new samples to it.

 

You cannot install the extra 400 mb of stock XF samples into any XS.

 

Of course more sounds doesn't mean better. An acoustic piano only gets one sound! But if you want Yamaha's latest sound set -- which includes the XS sound set but also many more sounds -- you have to buy an XF.

 

I wish Yamaha did make an updated version of the Rack XS that could take a flash card, into which you could optionally load the extended XF sound set and other sounds.

[zapper]

I hope they improve it. I've played one several times and the screen was rather fiddly.

 

all they have to do is supersize the screen to fantom G screen dimensions and change lame colors.

[J. Dan]

I hope they improve it. I've played one several times and the screen was rather fiddly.

 

all they have to do is supersize the screen to fantom G screen dimensions and change lame colors.

 

I would add a global setting to show/hide certain sets of menus. Or maybe even by patch. There's a lot of extra stuff in there that just clutters things up and gets in the way... like all the Karma stuff. I mean, if you want to use it, you need to be able to see it. But if it's disabled for a patch, I don't want to see all those menus. There are other examples as well.

[RABid]

I'd like a "Sounds by Korg, interface by Roland" combination.

[Synthoid]

I hope they improve it. I've played one several times and the screen was rather fiddly.

 

all they have to do is supersize the screen to fantom G screen dimensions and change lame colors.

 

I would add a global setting to show/hide certain sets of menus. Or maybe even by patch. There's a lot of extra stuff in there that just clutters things up and gets in the way...

 

Now that's a great idea. Wonder how difficult it would be to implement?

 

 

[zapper]

I would add a global setting to show/hide certain sets of menus. Or maybe even by patch. There's a lot of extra stuff in there that just clutters things up and gets in the way...

 

Now that's a great idea. Wonder how difficult it would be to implement?

 

yeah, great idea and I surprised they didn't provide such option already. This screen is really clattered.

[NuSkoolTone]

As an owner of both an XS and Kronos, can't say I'd be surprised if true. To me it's a no brainer. Myself and others that own an XS all agreed: The XF just wasn't worth the upgrade cost for essentially the same keyboard with minor tweaks and that flash ram is EXPENSIVE! Especially the larger sizes. I put in a 256gb SSD drive in the Kronos and with streaming that comparison isn't even a contest. The wireless FTP to that drive is sweet too.

 

Not to say the Kronos is without it's weaknesses: An out of date sequencer, love it or hate it Karma, no output for a bigger monitor, a less than stellar leslie sim, and some stock sounds begging for a sample upgrade (but easy and maybe even cheap to do!).

 

But MAN, after gigging a Motif for years some features of the Kronos are downright LIBERATING! Like getting past that RIDICULOUS 4 voice split/layer limit, ALL voices writable and not permanently stored at too low a volume. Options so I can finally get CONSISTENT PATCH VOLUMES without having to resort to an anemic output to the mixer. SO MANY independent insert FX I can be set up. Able to use USB controllers (the nanopad is great!) The almost always available drum track for jamming or rehearsal. It DOES take a little more programming to put this all together IMO, but I could do a full wedding or club gig with JUST A KRONOS using lots of sounds and prob never miss a beat.

 

I REALLY hope Korg milks a little more out of this baby, it still has so much potential.

[zapper]

The almost always available drum track for jamming or rehearsal. It DOES take a little more programming to put this all together IMO, but I could do a full wedding or club gig with JUST A KRONOS using lots of sounds and prob never miss a beat.

 

drum track is something that every workstation should have by definition, I wish yamaha did something like that in moitifs. They put inside very good drum sounds, I guess over 1000 rhythms but accessibility is very poor.

[BRW]

I hope they improve it. I've played one several times and the screen was rather fiddly.

 

all they have to do is supersize the screen to fantom G screen dimensions and change lame colors.

 

It's mind-boggling why they (Korg) felt they needed to waste precious screen real estate for those dumb photos of the instruments, for instance - and hide important menus/buttons in the lower corners with miniscule, teeny tiny fonts.

 

 

[BRW]

Like getting past that RIDICULOUS 4 voice split/layer limit

 

I agree, this is lame. And should have been revamped on the XF - a product that while essentially an XS, is still sold in the same price bracket as its new competitors (Jupiter-80 and the Kronos), both of which can jump hoops around it in terms of sounds per "Performance".

[zapper]

Like getting past that RIDICULOUS 4 voice split/layer limit

 

I agree, this is lame. And should have been revamped on the XF - a product that while essentially an XS, is still sold in the same price bracket as its new competitors (Jupiter-80 and the Kronos), both of which can jump hoops around it in terms of sounds per "Performance".

 

you can easily bypass that limit by using karma software for motif XS/XF.

[AnotherScott]

Like getting past that RIDICULOUS 4 voice split/layer limit

 

I agree, this is lame. And should have been revamped on the XF - a product that while essentially an XS, is still sold in the same price bracket as its new competitors (Jupiter-80 and the Kronos), both of which can jump hoops around it in terms of sounds per "Performance".

 

you can easily bypass that limit by using karma software for motif XS/XF.

 

Or just use Song mode instead of Performance mode on the Motif. Then I think you can split/layer up to 16 Voices. It's not obvious since Song mode is presented as something more oriented to sequencing than to, well, performing. But that's typical confusing Yamaha nomenclature/interface compounded by typical Yamaha manuals.

[piano39]

Like getting past that RIDICULOUS 4 voice split/layer limit

 

I agree, this is lame. And should have been revamped on the XF - a product that while essentially an XS, is still sold in the same price bracket as its new competitors (Jupiter-80 and the Kronos), both of which can jump hoops around it in terms of sounds per "Performance".

 

you can easily bypass that limit by using karma software for motif XS/XF.

 

Or just use Song mode instead of Performance mode on the Motif. Then I think you can split/layer up to 16 Voices. It's not obvious since Song mode is presented as something more oriented to sequencing than to, well, performing. But that's typical confusing Yamaha nomenclature/interface compounded by typical Yamaha manuals.

 

This subject comes up repeatedly, so I guess we can lay the blame on the Yamaha UI, or manual. Pattern (or song) mixing mode can be used to set up multiple splits, layers, arps, etc. For example, I might set up a tracks 1 ad 2 to be a piano/ flute split, track 3 to be the same piano across the entire keyboard, tracks 4,5,6,7 to be some combination of splits, layers, arps etc. I just select another track to change the "performance" of the keyboard.

 

The great thing about the Motif is that there is zero hiccup from the sound engine. In the above example, I can be playing the piano patch in my left hand (trk 1) continuously and switch to trk 3 to get the split- absolutely no hesitation on the sound.

 

Yamaha should have included some "performance" templates in the mixing mode. The templates that they included are all for sequencing.

[zapper]

yes, just found post by Bad_Mister from motifator:

 

Performance mode (lets just say you dont understand it) But if you want to split/layer and play more than 4 VOICES at once, this is called MIXING mode. It also allows you to switch between sounds without interruption (this has been true of Motifs since 2001) same as it ever was.

 

You can in MIXING mode place all 16 VOICES on the same MIDI channel or set them to any MIDI channel you wish. You can also move between the 16 Voice in a MIXING program without any sound interruption.

 

so this is something like Combi on Korg but even better.

Yamaha should really fire their UI designers and work flow engineers because they're losing a lot potential customers because of cryptic interface.

[AnotherScott]

so this is something like Combi on Korg but even better.

I see how it is roughly equivalent, but in what sense is it better?

 

One remaining advantage of Combi mode is that the 16 sounds in a Combi can be a mix of internal and external sounds. In the Yamaha, if you want some of the sounds to be external (ipad, laptop, sound module, another keyboard) , you need to go to yet another mode, the Master mode.

 

It is possible to integrate the two modes, but I don't know how that might alter the functionality of what you can do, i.e. how the buttons can then be manipulated on the fly for turning on and off the different split/layered internal/external sounds, I've never tried that.

[zapper]

so this is something like Combi on Korg but even better.

I see how it is roughly equivalent, but in what sense is it better?

 

here is another quote from motifator (Dave Polich):

 

But heres the problem with Combi mode, even on the M3 - when you place a program in Combi mode, it does not bring along its effects with it, like you can with the Motif. You have to create a new set of insert effects (up to 5) in Combi mode, then route the various programs in the Combi through those. 5 insert effects is all you get for all 16 programs.

Whereas, on the Motif, you can have up to 8 voices, with their own insert effects, in a mix. If all 8 of those voices have two insert effects each, then in Mix mode you have up to 16 insert effects going at once, plus the global chorus and reverb and master effect.

 

Actually the MIX mode in Motif is better than the COMBI mode on Korg. Here is why. In MIX mode you can save fully edited, customized version of the programs in the MIX. In a COMBI on Korg, you are only referencing a program sound on 16 channels.

 

So, the MIX mode is like having 16 user programs saved!

 

I din't use kronos a lot so I cannot comment on these statements because they're referring M3.

 

[burningbusch]

Plus with SST on the Kronos you can still jump from combi to another combi/program without the sound cutting off.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

On the Kronos you have 12 insert FXs in either Program or Combi mode which can be routed in a variety of ways. In addition you have two master sends and two master inserts which are not limited to chorus/reverb. They can be any of the FXs. So you're basically looking at 16 total. In addition, if the engine has built-in FXs like the Leslie on the CX-3, ensemble on the PolySix or the various pedals in the EP-1, these do not count against the 16. So it's entirely feasible to have more than 16. Plus, Korg has dual mono FXs, e.g. delay+phaser, which only count as one in the mixer. They are available in serial and parallel configurations.

 

Yes, Korg combis are pointers to the program but there are actually a large number of parameters available that allow you to alter/edit those sounds and those edits are saved with the combi. Every program has a long list of parameters available in TONE ADJ. where you can get to the engine parameters and use the knobs on the control surface to adjust them. Again, all this adjustments can be saved with the combi.

 

There are +/-s to both approaches.

 

Busch.

[AnotherScott]

One major bone to pick with Yamaha though is, you can't overwrite the factory voices. You can only edit them and save in the user banks. Every one of my other synths and workstations allow overwriting of all factory sounds. Eeesh.

 

It's not quite that simple. As was just posted...

 

here is another quote from motifator (Dave Polich):

 

...

 

Actually the MIX mode in Motif is better than the COMBI mode on Korg. Here is why. In MIX mode you can save fully edited, customized version of the programs in the MIX. In a COMBI on Korg, you are only referencing a program sound on 16 channels.

 

So, the MIX mode is like having 16 user programs saved!

 

On the Yamaha, you can't change the factory voices... but you can save edited versions of them in the board's "Combis." On the Korg, you can change the factory voices, but you cannot* save edited versions of them in Combis (you have to go back and change the voice in its original location... which then affects the sound of that voice in every other combi as well, which may or may not be what you want.) Yes, I'm mixing Yamaha and Korg terminology here. But the point is, I don't think it is clear that either approach is better than the other.

 

One variable to all of this is, how many "slots" do any of the boards provide for your custom voices without having to disturb stock voices. If you have enough, then arguably the ability to alter stock voices becomes kind of moot.

 

* edit to reflect Busch's post... there are some parameters that can be saved within the combi as well

[burningbusch]

There are many times when I hear a sound in a combi that I like and go back to the Program only to find it sounds considerably different. I just looked at an HD-1 program in combi mode and there are 80 potential parameters available in tone adjust. Now you are limited by the control surface, but realistically you have a lot of control. Plus remember, EQ and FXs can be completely different in combi vs. the original program.

 

Busch.

[AnotherScott]

here is another quote from motifator (Dave Polich):

 

But heres the problem with Combi mode, even on the M3 - when you place a program in Combi mode, it does not bring along its effects with it, like you can with the Motif. You have to create a new set of insert effects (up to 5) in Combi mode, then route the various programs in the Combi through those.

 

On the Kronos you have 12 insert FXs in either Program or Combi mode which can be routed in a variety of ways.

Although the two of you were largely talking about the total number of simultaneous fx, I'm more interested in the program-to-combi process. When you move a Program into a Combi in the Kronos, does it bring along its original fx by default? If not, what is the process for copying those fx from the original patch? Or if it does bring then automatically, does it put up a message if you attempt to add another program to a combi that will put it over its 12 FX limit?

 

I guess Kurzweil PC3 still beats them both overall with its 16 fx. The Integra-7 also has 16 (non-global) fx, but they are limited to one per "voice" -- the advantage being that you can put together a 16-channel 16-voice "studio set" and be sure that each sound will have its original fx without having to think about it; the downside being that, if you don't need all 16 sounds, you can't "borrow" an unused fx unit from one for the purposes of putting two on another. Kurz and Roland are also strong in their "patch remain" functionality.

[burningbusch]

On the Kronos you have 12 insert FXs in either Program or Combi mode which can be routed in a variety of ways.

Although the two of you were largely talking about the total number of simultaneous fx, I'm more interested in the program-to-combi process. When you move a Program into a Combi in the Kronos, does it bring along its original fx by default? If not, what is the process for copying those fx from the original patch? Or if it does bring then automatically, does it put up a message if you attempt to add another program to a combi that will put it over its 12 FX limit?

 

I guess Kurzweil PC3 still beats them both overall with its 16 fx. The Integra-7 also has 16 (non-global) fx, but they are limited to one per "voice" -- the advantage being that you can put together a 16-channel 16-voice "studio set" and be sure that each sound will have its original fx without having to think about it; the downside being that, if you don't need all 16 sounds, you can't "borrow" an unused fx unit from one for the purposes of putting two on another. Kurz and Roland are also strong in their "patch remain" functionality.

 

When you use COPY FROM PROGRAM you have the option of bringing the FXs (inserts and masters) plus drums and KARMA. Everything is routed as it is in the program. If you add another program to a second timbre and you tell it to bring in the insert FXs, it's smart enough to do it properly and you retain the first programs FXs & routing. So it's pretty easy. Yes it does warn you with "not enough empty slots to copy" if you try to add when you run out of FXs slots.

 

I agree on Kurzweil. From a programmer's view it's nice not to have these artificial walls. I don't understand FXs in the new Rolands as I haven't worked with them. I always found Roland to be restrictive in controller assignments. Don't know if that's still true.

 

Busch.

[mate stubb]

See, this is why I got disgusted with my S-90, and swore off workstations forever.

 

This discussion gives me a headache.

 

I'd rather play a single instrument with one sound the entire night than try to wrap my brain around all the esoteric intentions of the instrument's software developers. I have to decipher other people's code all day long in my day job.

 

I went back to organ and a Nord Stage, couldn't be happier. I play a lot better these days too.

[Michael Wright]

When I went into L&M to look for a new keyboard several years ago, the young fellow showed me all these very cool instruments, with tons of very cool bells whistles, drums and sequencers. When I said I'm old now I just want something that does nothing else, he directed me to an E3.

God Bless him.