keyguy Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Wow... http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/gibson-0825-2011/ Jim Wells Tallahassee, FL www.pureplatinumband.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Really strange. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuzikTeechur Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The government spokesperson remarked that the black market for ebony wood is akin to the "Blood Diamond" atrocity of movie fame. Of course, it's much harder to smuggle a plank of ebony up your ass. Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine. HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Of course, it's much harder to smuggle a plank of ebony up your ass. When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 This made front page in the Indian press, too. The typical reaction was this: . This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Zeger Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 During the raid, agents found 200 unopened cases of Opcode Studio Vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnus64 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 This is a really dangerous situation for those of us with "vintage" instruments (one of my previous fiddles was the vintage year of 1685 ). One must carry some pretty convincing documentation that the instrument is of a certain year. An overzealous (or crooked) customs official could take that classic Martin away and keep it. This reminds me of various drug laws in states that let authorities keep your property, even if you are NOT convicted. The TSA agent is gonna touch your junk then take your axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 During the raid, agents found 200 unopened cases of Opcode Studio Vision. Is PRS next? Ridiculous. What we record in life, echoes in eternity. MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 During the raid, agents found 200 unopened cases of Opcode Studio Vision. Classic. Probably one of the funniest things I've read in a long time A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Maximus_ Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 that is nuts... but i see a tv movie about this in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 More Info: More info. from Gibson Interview with Gibson's CEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzzz Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 During the raid, agents found 200 unopened cases of Opcode Studio Vision. Given that Gibson has "raided" and destroyed many great music-related companies- Opcode, Oberheim, Steinberger, etc., etc., etc., I am having difficulty generating any sympathy for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnus64 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 More Info: More info. from Gibson Interview with Gibson's CEO This might be one of the few times in my life where I believe the gvmt. The CEO has turned this into a "gvmt is evil, picking on lil ol me" issue, when this goes back several years. His use of partisan attacks is an embarrassment to the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 The CEO is notorious for being, well frankly, a vile human being. His company was voted the #1 WORST company to work for in the known universe. His takeover and scuttling of Oberheim and the MX product thru personal meddling, and subsequent persecution of the original developer (AND Don Buchla, brought in to rescue the project) is legendary. linkie Now he has almost ruined Gibson. May all bad things happen to him. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B3bluesman59 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Here's what I have read: Indian law specifies that "sawn wood" cannot be exported but that "veneer wood" can. Veneer is sawn wood that has been processed in India..it can then be exported. This is not about importing some endangered species of wood but about the definitions of the product. Gibson claims they have been importing the veneer figerboards for decades and that 2/3 of the finish work is done in India, 1/3 in the US...therefore the fingerboards quality as "veneer". No charges have been filed in this case..only search warrants have been served. I think the Justic Department might have some more important things to do than fool around with this case. Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 This topic borders on areas that could easily go political. Please proceed cautiously - I've already had to edit. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Just don't blow up the thread! Zeger's comment must survive! That shit's still making me laugh.... A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Just don't blow up the thread! Zeger's comment must survive! That shit's still making me laugh.... Me as well. Hence my request... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Stanfield Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think the Justic Department might have some more important things to do than fool around with this case. Agreed. Many of the strange decisions made by Gibson are well-known in the industry, but I don't think that they're doing anything (morally) wrong regarding their wood importing. Maybe they're taking advantage of a legal loophole, or turning a blind eye towards some illegal harvesting activity, but it's hardly life-and-death stuff, and to my knowledge consumers aren't being defrauded by them. That's about all I can say without breaking the politics rule by ranting further ... except to also say: STAND YOUR GROUND, GIBSON! Jason Stanfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Without taking a side, I will say that Gibson's reputation is widespread. If it is eventually proven that they knowingly sought to circumvent the content or the intent of the law in order to maximize profits, a lot of people around here will not be surprised. This is not their first skirmish, as noted above. re: the 09 case: The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests. Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood. "Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood." Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Heins Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 "It puts the guitars in the basket" We used to lock the loonies up, now they lock us up Bill http://www.billheins.com/ Hail Vibrania! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StartRun Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 ...ultimately, the free market-not the gummint, will settle this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 ...ultimately, the free market-not the gummint, will settle this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_trade Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnus64 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I think the Justic Department might have some more important things to do than fool around with this case. Agreed. Many of the strange decisions made by Gibson are well-known in the industry, but I don't think that they're doing anything (morally) wrong regarding their wood importing. Maybe they're taking advantage of a legal loophole, or turning a blind eye towards some illegal harvesting activity, but it's hardly life-and-death stuff, and to my knowledge consumers aren't being defrauded by them. Lots of stuff isnt life and death, I'm not following the rationale here. When one get's that speeding ticket they weren't defrauding anyone either, but they man up and go pay the fee. I happen to think some of the US drug laws are ridiculous. We, however, can't pick and choose laws to follow as we please without paying the piper if we break those laws. There's a CEO mentality here (with Gibson) that I'm objecting to, not the actual deed. I don't know enough about the subject to opine whether the law is wise or foolish, I just see a greedy CEO making up an imaginary witch hunt to avoid following laws at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 This post isn't political, it is about legalities. a) it appears Gibson broke no US law* with this East Indian Rosewood and Indian ebony. It also appears this action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India. b) it appears Gibson broke no US law* in 2009 with the Madagascar ebony. In fact, Gibson has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government, and these documents, which have been filed in federal court, show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated. Nearly two years later, no charges have been filed, yet the US government refuses to return the wood to Gibson. The Justice Department has asked the judge to stop the court case indefinitely. So, while it's entirely possible that Gibson is lying, the US government's inaction and stalling following the 2009 raid is equally suspicious. Add to this the uncertainties inherent in dealing with an African regime, er, government, and the fact that the wood was purchased from Germany with the required "legal" documents**, I don't think we can yet determine who is right and who is wrong. My guess is there is enough blame to go around. * The .gov is supposedly investigating whether the 100-year-old Lacey Act was violated. ** It is possible that Gibson has legal documents from Madagascar for the importation of ebony. The reality is that it is equally possible, given it is an African country, that whoever issued those documents had no legal right to do so. Or that it was wood that was illegally harvested, warehoused, then sold during periods when those wood exports were allowed (they periodically are). If that is the case, it's probably impossible to know for sure if that's what happened and prosecute because Gibson would have legal export papers from Madagascar. Doubtful anyone could determine that tree "A" was harvested one week before the ban was lifted and tree "B" was harvested one week after. Estonia 190, Korg TrinityPlus, Yamaha P90, Roland PK-5a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnus64 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 This post isn't political, it is about legalities. a) it appears Gibson broke no US law* with this East Indian Rosewood. It also appears this action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India. b) it appears Gibson broke no US law* in 2009 with the Madagascar ebony. In fact, Gibson has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government, and these documents, which have been filed in federal court, show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated. Nearly two years later, no charges have been filed, yet the US government refuses to return the wood to Gibson. The Justice Department has asked the judge to stop the court case indefinitely. So, while it's entirely possible that Gibson is lying, the US government's inaction and stalling following the 2009 raid is equally suspicious. Add to this the uncertainties inherent in dealing with an African regime, er, government, and the fact that the wood was purchased from Germany with the required "legal" documents**, I don't think we can yet determine who is right and who is wrong. My guess is there is enough blame to go around. * The .gov is supposedly investigating whether the 100-year-old Lacey Act was violated. ** It is possible that Gibson has legal documents from Madagascar for the importation of ebony. The reality is that it is equally possible, given it is an African country, that whoever issued those documents had no legal right to do so. I have no objection to any of this, it's probably complex and will take years to sort out. I'm not supporting "The Man" in any way. I just object to the CEO's handling of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 The application for search warrant stated that the wood Gibson imported from India (through Luthiers Mercantile of Windsor, California who got it from a German importer) contained blanks 10mm in thickness. To be legal they should have been 6mm (or less) in thickness. Estonia 190, Korg TrinityPlus, Yamaha P90, Roland PK-5a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogmonkey Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Regulating and protecting tropical hardwoods (and the ecosystems that produce them) is serious business with real, global consequences. As far as I'm concerned, illegally obtaining tropical hardwoods isn't too much different from dumping your toxic waste into the river. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Link Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 "Press release from KMJ-AM in Fresno, California: Tonight, in an interview on KMJs The Chris Daniel Show, Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz confirmed that the US government wanted Gibson guitars to use foreign labor over American labor: CHRIS DANIEL: Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor? HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a [inaudible]. CHRIS DANIEL: Excuse me? HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading. CHRIS DANIEL: That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor? HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: Yes" aka âmisterdregsâ Nord Electro 5D 73 Yamaha P105 Kurzweil PC3LE7 Motion Sound KP200S Schimmel 6-10LE QSC CP-12 Westone AM Pro 30 IEMs Rolls PM55P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Regulating and protecting tropical hardwoods (and the ecosystems that produce them) is serious business with real, global consequences. In the case of the Indian ebony and rosewood for which they were recently raided, Gibson could import an entire shipload of the stuff legally. The issue is simply with the dimensional thickness of the wood, 10mm v. 6mm, about 3/8" (illegal) v. 1/4" (legal). India simply wants to keep more work in country sawing it up thinner before export. It has nothing at all to do with not harvesting a protected tropical hardwood. There were several shipments. Some correctly labeled the wood 10mm, some incorrectly labeled it 6mm. Estonia 190, Korg TrinityPlus, Yamaha P90, Roland PK-5a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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