Would The Doors Had Their Fame If R Manzarek Had Used A B-3?

[nitekatt2008]

It's an interesting debate about the Doors, their fame, songwriting, Morrison's lyrics, Ray Manzarek's organ, use of a left hand bass keyboard instead of adding a bass player, if anything would have affected their popularity and record sales if Manzarek had used a B-3 rather than the Farfisa or Vox portable organ he played.

 

As much as I love the Doors and their unique sound and very interesting songs, I honestly have ears that cringe with Ray Manzarek's choice of organ keyboards. This is just my opinion as people's taste in music and sounds and choice of instruments is debatable, that can become eternal almost. But even still, I am and always will be a Doors fan. I have seen many of the rare live Doors footage film clips, shot at live concerts, Ed Sullivan, sound stages and I really wished that they had added a live good bass player. I felt there was a loss of a bottom on their live concerts, but their records were recorded with a bass player, on most takes anyway.

 

But when I started playing organ around the time the Doors' "Light My Fire" single was climbing the charts, I got a Farfisa Compact organ and an amp so I could start playing in local cover bands. Although I actually hated the sound of the Farfisa, and organ choices at that time were limited for a portable, I was stuck with it. For a year or so anyway.

 

Until one day, I was driving through town in the summer in my convertible and heard what I thought was a Hammond B-3 blasting from a nightclub in mid afternoon. Since it was a hot day, and the back door to the club was open to cool down the joint, the local cover band was at the club rehearsing for the weekend gig. So I slammed on the brakes, parked my ride and bust through the door to check out where the "B-3" was coming from. I already knew the band cats and the organ player.

 

Well, I was in for the shock of my life, because on the stage was a small Mini Compact Farfisa organ, an octave smaller than mine, but hooked up to a big wooden furniture speaker system called a Leslie Tone Cabinet.

 

I knew about B-3 organs and Leslies, but never heard one live at the time and I was amazed at the sound I was hearing from a small Farfisa emulating or almost cloning the sound of a B-3 because it was running through a Leslie speaker. The thing about hooking up a Farfisa directly to a Leslie was a bit tricky in those days in the late 1960's, because as we know, the special cable that attaches the Leslie to a B-3/C-3 powers the tone cabinet. There is no AC cable on a Leslie to plug into the wall for power.

 

So the way "Joe" the organ player hooked his rig up was through a special preamp pedal with the right outlet for the thick Leslie cable to hook into. Then you ran the mono out from the Farfisa into the pedal which also had a foot switch to turn the rotating head on and off or set to chorale to start moving air and getting the tremolo sound of a real B-3.

 

I asked Joe how this was possible, which I thought and heard was impossible to hook up a Farfisa or any organ other than a B-3/C-3 Hammond beast to a Leslie. He told me, "go down to our local music store, and ask to speak to their genius electronic repair tech "Gary" and he will modify your Farfisa so you can run it through a Leslie.

 

The next morning, I waited in the parking lot until the music store opened and asked the salesman if Gary was in. I told him what I wanted and he knew Joe got his rig modified by Gary. He said he was upstairs and he would be glad to go upstairs with me and introduce me to him. When I got to Gary's shop, I thought I had been dropped into "Docs" lab from "Back To The Future." Man there were tubes, screws, cables, organ parts, amps missing speakers, all over the floor, utter chaos, typical repair shop though.

 

Anyway, I met Gary and asked him if he could rig me up a Leslie to my Farfisa which I had bought from them anyway like he did for my friend Joe. He said absolutely he could, however, he had the special pre-amps and Leslie cables on order and as soon as they came in, he could fix me up. Luckily though he had just gotten in a smaller Model 122 or 147 that he had just rebuilt with new speakers and he put a hold sticker on it for me.

 

So in about a week, the parts came in, Gary rigged up the Leslie and pedal and even offered to drop it off at my place because he had a large van with his "Road Lab" gear. He hooked up the Leslie to my Farfisa and when I heard the sound, I was in Hammond heaven. Now Joe and I had the only portable "Hammonds" in town which put us in demand for more gigs. Eventually I was even renting out my rig to another local band who also had a Farfisa.

 

After about a year of using the Farfisa/Leslie combo, the Young Rascals had just come on the scene with their hit "Good Lovin" and they came into town for a live concert. The place was packed and when I heard Feliz C cranking out those bass lines and big gospel B-3 chords, I had to have a B-3. Joe got one first which I had discovered at a local battle of the bands, but I was both jealous but impressed with the organ and Leslie he had. So I called Gary the tech and told him I needed a used B-3/Leslie. He told me they had one coming in for a trade in from a church that had to be cleaned and tweaked for sale and asked me if I was interested? I told him absolutely, but he said the Model 122 or 147 Leslie I had wouldn't work for the B-3, but he would apply some trade in credit for my rig to bring the price down on the Hammond.

 

So, one day out of the blue, Gary called me to drop by the store and check out the rebuilt B-3/Leslie and see if I wanted it. I went over, jammed on it for about an hour, wrote it up and Gary told me he and one of their piano movers could bring it over to my place after work. So that evening, Gary and his partner pulled up, unloaded the B-3/Leslie on their special dollies and put it into my dining room and I was really in Hammond heaven.

 

As more and more bands were switching from portable organs like the Farfisas and Vox Continentals to the B-3, the Doors stayed with the portable organs. And I read in some interviews when they would ask R Manzarek why he didn't switch to using a B-3? But he said that his organ was what gave the Doors their unique sound, even though I read the band got him a B-3, but he said, "thanks guys, but no thanks. I'll stay with my current system." I honestly don't know if that is true or not, but who knows.

 

But one thing we do know about the Doors records produced by Paul A. Rothchild and Bruce Botnick an audio engineer and record producer, best known for his work with The Doors final LA Woman album, they wanted a bass player on the studio recordings to punch up the lows on the mix and EQ.

 

But in theory, would the Doors had gotten accepted by their fans and sold as many records and booked as many concerts, if R Manzrek had changed horses in the middle of a stream and switched to using a B-3/Leslie and retired his portable organ and LH bass keyboard?

 

Years back, I answered an ad from a Doors tribute band looking for an organ player who could could play like Manzarek. Since I had played so many Doors covers in various bands, I answered the ad. They had me pick 4 tunes from a list of 6, "Light My Fire," "Riders On The Storm," "Road House Blue," Break On Through," are the tunes I played. They already had a "Manzarek" rig and a LH bass keyboard. Anyway I played through the tunes and the band was very good, very realistic of the Doors in look, style. They said they would be making a final decision and would call me if they were interested. After about a week, I got call from the singer and they asked me if I was interested in joining the band. I said I was, if I could use my own keyboard rig. But since they were a Doors tribute band, they wanted to sound as close to the records as possible, down to the actual keyboards that Manzarek played. I was honest with him and told him I couldn't deal with the sound of those keyboards and had to pass. I had no regrets, they had gigs, but there was no way I could play those Doors tunes night after night on the original Doors keyboard rig.

 

I can also relate a similar matter with a guitar player of a local cover band who refused to match the exact guitar player's sound on Al Kooper's first Blood, Sweat and Tears album on some of the tunes. After listening closer to the guitar player on that first record, I heard what he met. The dude could play and was a decent writer, but his tone was tinny, weak. Anyway on the second album, the band booted out Al Kooper and replaced him with David Clayton Thomas.

 

So keyboard players are also picky when it comes down to the sounds we like and don't like. I've been in cover bands where they want to play Santana's "Evil Ways," Oye Como Va," "Jingo," "Soul Sacrifice," and they will say, "like dude, can you get that exact B-3 sound that Greg Rollie gets on the records and at the Wookstock concert? "Well, of course I can guys, do you have a B-3 and Leslie like Greg Rollie used back then? "Uh, unfortunately no, but can you program something similar in your synth to match it? "Nope, sorry."

 

I don't have a Nord C2 dual organ, or Suzuki Hammond. But what I do have is 3 88 weighted keyboards, a Mac laptop and the latest version of VB3 Virtual Tonewheel organ. And with that, some tweaking and possibly adding a pre-amp, plus a Motion Sound Leslie or pedal simulator, I can can get pretty close to that Greg Rollie B-3 sound. I think that VB3 also "cringe" has some Farfisa and Vox portable organ samples, which I will pass on for now.

 

Since the Doors have been labeled an "art band" in the press, musicians who modeled their unique sound and instrumentation as a vehicle to showcase their poetic singer Morrison, it was probably fate and the right decision for Manzarek to listen to his inner voice and stick to the type of keyboards he was using and the sounds he picked that we heard on the Doors' 6-7 albums. No doubt about it, the Doors were an original sounding band that took some risks, but paid off beyond expectations of the fans and I'm sure the group itself.

 

But I still sit and wonder, what if the Doors had chosen a B-3. Would it have made a major difference in the way the fans accepted the band? Who knows, but I still ponder the probabilities.

 

katt

[bluzeyone]

I thought the same nitekatt. At least a Leslie or two to make her gurgle a little would have been nice. I read Manzareks bio. Pretty intresting!

[richwhite9]

Are you sure you are a Doors fan?

 

They did switch to a Hammond and used one on many tracks.

 

 

[richwhite9]

On the 4th album "The Soft Parade" the title track and "Wild Child" are Hammond tracks.

 

On LA Woman (6th album):

The Changling

THE WASP (Texas Radio and the Big Beat)

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zayq41CZhc

 

Hyacinth House

 

On Morrison Hotel (5th album):

Maggie McGill

 

Second Album

Strange Days (title track)

 

[VLH]

Reminds me of an old SNL skit--what if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?

[Marzzz]

what if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?

 

'zactly!

[retrokeys]

I was about to say...the Doors bought Manzarek a C3 which he used on several tracks. Also, at the time the OP was modding his Farfisa, a local electronics whiz in my then hometown of Lexington KY rigged up my amp so with a toggle switch I could run my Vox straight through the amp, use the amp to preamp the leslie or run both. An adaptable rig for the times for sure.

[Bill H.]

Sorry Katt - The Doors was always about Jim Morrison. It wouldn't have mattered what Manzarek played. No one but us keyboard players noticed or cared.

 

Without Jim Morrison The Doors would have been just another hippie band like Country Joe and the Fish.

[Joe Muscara]

When I got to Gary's shop, I thought I had been dropped into "Docs" lab from "Back To The Future."

But that movie didn't come out until 1985, more than fifteen years after your story takes place.

 

"Back to the Future" indeed.

[drawback]

Sorry Katt - The Doors was always about Jim Morrison. It wouldn't have mattered what Manzarek played. No one but us keyboard players noticed or cared.

 

Without Jim Morrison The Doors would have been just another hippie band like Country Joe and the Fish.

 

Yup.

 

 

 

[Outkaster]

Good post. I liked the story. I never was a Doors fan. To me they were a little overated. Morrison seemed like he was a dick to work with.

[GDP]

Good post. I liked the story. I never was a Doors fan. To me they were a little overated. Morrison seemed like he was a dick to work with.

 

Here is an interesting take on the life and times of J Morrison and The Doors:

 

No One Here Gets Out Alive

 

Lots of info from their contemporaries.

 

Personally, I don't think JM would have made it without the Doors....Together they all formed an iconic band and relationship that happened at the right time and at the right place. They helped create an environment that many bands followed into. They will be a legendary group far beyond our lifetimes.

[mate stubb]

As others have pointed out, Ray did use Hammond, as well as a Continental, a G101, harpsichord, upright piano, etc.

 

And many of the studio cuts used key bass alone, without bass guitar.

 

For me, the sound of his combo organs was iconic and Ray (along with maybe Doug Ingle from Iron Butterfly) was the leading proponent of the psychedelic organ sound. It just wouldn't be as special for the music of that era if it was Hammond.

 

The sustain stops of the Gibson in particular made eerie sounds that could not have been produced on Hammond, and which made songs like "The Unknown Soldier" much more powerful.

 

But I lived thru that era and was playing combo organs and am probably biased. One thing is for sure - Hammond is a much more versatile and soulful sound. When musical styles changed, combo organs fell out of favor and thus started the age of Hammond.

[JohnH]

Damn...My ears are ringing from playing my lovely Gibson last night with my Doors tribute. I love their Hammond tracks like Wild Child, but the Doors without those compact organs just wouldn't be the same!

[Zydecat]

Interesting stories. In the 70's I had a Farfisa Compact Duo running through a Leslie combo preamp into a 145. While the Leslie looked cool and did wonders for the Farfisa, it sure didn't sound anything like a real Hammond to me.

 

The transistor organs were a big part of the Doors early sound, but basically it was all about Jim Morrison. (I loved the Doors, but much of their early stuff sounds pretty self-indulgent now.) I don't think using a B-3 would have made helped, and may have even changed things in a bad way.

 

I'm actually more interested in how rather than what RM played.

[Billdar]

It looks like when Manzarek did use a B3, it didn't help. Those songs are obscure compared to their biggest hits.

 

Manzarek's style isn't exactly "Hammond". Back in the day (I, too, lived through that era and went from Farfisa to Hammond) I thought he played "square". And that's how I played when my band did Doors songs, even after I got the Hammond. I think the square Vox sound was a key component of their music.

 

[richwhite9]

The recent public television Doors special was pretty good. When You're Strange: A Film About the Doors.

 

Mostly old tapes that were unearthed. The story is well known but it was real backstage and studio tape so the Morrison problem was a little more focused and realistic.

 

The best way to put it: they got through the first two albums OK. Many of the clips are from the period where Morrison was drunk. Constantly. Between the failed "Celebration of the Lizard" from the 3rd album and "The Soft Parade" era (4th album). Lots of no shows and bad studio performances of his poetry. It was the era of the arrests and inconsistent stage shows. Let's just say Manzarek had plenty of opportunity to vamp on the classic Vox riff he uses over and over again.

[AnotherScott]

I don't think the cheesy organ was make-or-break for the Doors sound, especially when you consider that some of their biggest hits didn't use it (People Are Strange featured honky tonk piano, Love Me Two Times featured harpsi, Riders on the Storm featured elec piano), and even the organ sounds were pretty diverse... the organ sound on Hello I Love You is very different from the organ sound on Light My Fire... Love Her Madly is different too... I don't think there really is a signature "Doors" organ sound.

[Moonglow]

I think I recall seeing or reading an interview with Manzarek where he said that the only reason he initially selected a Vox organ was because it had a flat surface on which to place the Rhodes bass!

[area51recording]

I realize that by nature we here are "keyboard centric" but the public could give a toss less about the gear a band plays. They either like the song or not and it dosen't matter if Ray is playing a combo, b3, ramhorn, or kazoo. The only people who care about that are gear geeks like us. It's all about the Lizard King and those leather pants baby....

[ProfD]

Together they all formed an iconic band and relationship that happened at the right time and at the right place. They helped create an environment that many bands followed into. They will be a legendary group far beyond our lifetimes.

Agreed.

 

IMO, the organ and LH bass Manzarek employed were inconsequential to the success of the Doors. The whole was definitely greater than the sum of its parts.

 

The band benefitted from and will be remembered for being a part of the Hippie movement soundtrack IMO.

[nitekatt2008]

Wow, what a response. Surprise. Looks like I have some cohorts here that also tend to avoid the portable organ sound. And yes, Manzarek did play I think B-3 on some cuts, but weren't as strong as in the mix.

 

I'm sure The book that R Manzarek wrote explains a lot about his use of various keyboards, in fact I will check my library and amazon to see if it is still in print.

 

And yes, no matter, I am and will always be a doors fan, regardless of what type of keyboards Ray played.

 

BTW, I read that the reason their main long time producer Paul Rothchild quit when the Doors were in rehearsals for their final album LA Woman, he told them that "Riders On The Storm" sounded like "cocktail jazz" and thought they were taking a wrong turn in their style. Apparently it angered him and he bailed out. So that's when he turned over the production duties to Bruce Botnick. But "Riders on The Storm" was a big radio hit and one of my favorites, especially R Manzarek's electric piano intro, comping and solo. And I did certainly enjoy the B-3 work on LA Woman.

 

But too my knowledge, I never heard of the Doors using a B-3 live. Did anyone here see them live with a B-3 on stage?

 

katt

[nitekatt2008]

Sorry Katt - The Doors was always about Jim Morrison. It wouldn't have mattered what Manzarek played. No one but us keyboard players noticed or cared.

 

Without Jim Morrison The Doors would have been just another hippie band like Country Joe and the Fish.

 

Bill, you are right about that. The Doors without Jim Morrison would be compared to ELP without Greg Lake.

 

katt

[nitekatt2008]

When I got to Gary's shop, I thought I had been dropped into "Docs" lab from "Back To The Future."

But that movie didn't come out until 1985, more than fifteen years after your story takes place.

 

"Back to the Future" indeed.

 

I'm aware of that, but it seems like every electronic repair shop I've ever been in looks like a mad scientist's lab. Everything is scattered about, no organization. You wonder how some shops keep track of all the parts, screws. wires, tools, et.

 

katt

[Moonglow]

....The Doors without Jim Morrison would be compared to ELP without Greg Lake.

 

katt

Whoa, be careful there.....

[iLaw]

... Bill, you are right about that. The Doors without Jim Morrison would be compared to ELP without Greg Lake...

... or the Dave Clark Five without that saxophone player guy.

 

It just wouldn't be the same.

 

Larry.

 

[MikeT156]

We also should keep in mind that "most" rock groups were also using combo organs back in those days. Many of us got tired of hauling around a B and twin leslies. And when the combo organs were used in a lot recordings, it was no big deal to use one if you were in a local band.

 

After using a Hammond for a number of years and finding the old beast we not very dependable (it was already ancient when I found a B2 from some older gent that wanted to sell it) I looked around for alternatives. No matter what I was playing, I always used a Leslie cabinet or sometimes two. It made combo organs sound better.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

[yannis D]

Sorry Katt - The Doors was always about Jim Morrison. It wouldn't have mattered what Manzarek played. No one but us keyboard players noticed or cared.

 

Without Jim Morrison The Doors would have been just another hippie band like Country Joe and the Fish.

 

+1

[Eric Iverson]

I loved the Doors at 14, and I think their first album still holds up well, and that "the End" was a masterpiece of rock theatre.

 

But they quickly turned into self-parody after that. I didn't realize it at the time, being just a kid. But now the whole Jim Morrison "doomed poet" shtick seems like a sick joke, and to have him as a role model is pathetic - unless you think becoming a drunken bum and nearly ruining your career and dying at 27 is the way to go.

 

Just like people who put Kurt Cobain on a pedestal. I can accept thinking he was talented, but to make a hero out a rich rock star who committed suicide? It doesn't make sense to me; maybe it would if I were still a teenager, who knows?

[nitekatt2008]

The recent public television Doors special was pretty good. When You're Strange: A Film About the Doors.

 

Mostly old tapes that were unearthed. The story is well known but it was real backstage and studio tape so the Morrison problem was a little more focused and realistic.

 

The best way to put it: they got through the first two albums OK. Many of the clips are from the period where Morrison was drunk. Constantly. Between the failed "Celebration of the Lizard" from the 3rd album and "The Soft Parade" era (4th album). Lots of no shows and bad studio performances of his poetry. It was the era of the arrests and inconsistent stage shows. Let's just say Manzarek had plenty of opportunity to vamp on the classic Vox riff he uses over and over again.

 

Yes, towards the end of the Doors breakup, I saw some footage where the band was sitting around being interviewed. This was of course Jim's "dark period." He had the beard, the shades, put on some weight, obviously a bit buzzed on booze or whatever. His demeanor was quite serious, dark, moody, depression had certainly implanted into his subconscious, his answers to the questions a bit vague and obscure.

 

Honestly, it saddened me a bit to see Jim in the condition he was in, although at that time, he was literally headed for the final exit in Paris and most of us never expected him to bail out at such a young age. I wished someone had intervened and set Jim up in rehap, and maybe someone did, I don't know, so he get have gotten some help. Perhaps Jim may have been bipolar, very manic, energetic in the beginning with the Doors success, then through the years of alcohol and substances, he started crashing into deep depressions.

 

What is so amazing though, the remaining 3 original Doors members are still active and what, Ray Manzarek is 71-72!! I must read his book, hope it's still in print, but I'm sure there are used copies somewhere.

 

Anyway, the Doors are LA's own, their records are still on the radio and tribute bands all over the place are still getting booked to do concerts.

 

katt