What really constitutes a performance ... ?

[Dave Pierce]

Aussiekeys, come on out to San Francisco and I'll take you to where the cool kids (of all ages) hang out and listen to good live music.

 

Britney won't be there, and none of her fans will either.

 

If you still want to talk smack when we're done, I can't stop you.

 

--Dave

[Dave Horne]

You guys are still going on about this?

 

Some of you are worried about how far this will go and for me if the headliner is lip syncing I'd want my money back as well.

 

This just comes down to truth in performance, doesn't it?

[zephonic]

 

BTW, blaming America for some sort of degradation of art/music is really silly. But I guess if the best band my country had given the world was Men At Work, I'd be a little disguntled, too.

 

 

 

Ouch!

[DanL]

All I can say is.....hitting PLAY does not constitute live performance.

 

A live performance of what? Brittney sucks, but it is her up there dancing and performing. So she's not singing. The music makes up a VERY small percentage of why she's famous and why people come to see the show.

 

You're looking at this from the standpoint of a musician. That kind of entertainment is NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC.

 

Who cares?

 

Its a totally different world. Doesn't affect me at all.

 

BTW, blaming America for some sort of degradation of art/music is really silly. But I guess if the best band my country had given the world was Men At Work, I'd be a little disguntled, too.

 

 

 

I agree with this. Pre teen girls or whoever her audience is is not going to see these acts because they are great singers. They are going to see a performance- dancing, stage theatrics, lights, sound. The whole experience. I imagine that all of the acts that cater to thise crowd are doing the same thing. 12 year old girls are not going to be impressed with someone standing there singing a song. They are impressed with the whole sensory experience a show like this provides.

[Dave Horne]

If I understand you correctly, you're saying there are intrinsic lowered standards in pop music?

 

It is possible to dance and sing even if the music is pop.

 

[video:youtube]

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Aussiekeys, come on out to San Francisco and I'll take you to where the cool kids (of all ages) hang out and listen to good live music.

 

Britney won't be there, and none of her fans will either.

 

If you still want to talk smack when we're done, I can't stop you.

 

--Dave

 

man....Dave I would love that, truely.

 

that would be the tonic I would need to know that the country I had always looked up to for individuality is still alive and kicking...

 

I guess when all we or I see nowadays on TV is American Idol, Britney Spears and similar we or rather I think the plot is lost , but then I guess I am generalising because of the media...with all this media available why is it now harder to see a bigger picture....or is it that the pop media has made me stop searching for the prize.Or have I just got older.

 

as an example as a budding keyboard player when I first heard say the "Cars" I thought I had gone to heaven...a well thought out mix of keyboards and guitar.One not dominating the other...it was eye opening, or the early B52's truley I thought experimental music [well till they sold out and got mainstream with love shack] this was part of the exitement of discovering overseas bands.But discovering them through the media...now the media seems blinkered far too much.

 

Yes ok, I realise I am blinkered and America is alive and kicking and not in the hands of manical producers...

 

points of all posters on here have been taken in....

 

excuse my outburst ,I just got sick of everyone complaining in so many threads over the 5 years I had been on here about these lip synching shows. I figured you might not like it but no one over there seems to have done anything about changing it...

 

I dont really see how you can change it but the crys of hate for them just seem endless. I guess you have to vent...as I had here...anyway everyone deserves one outburst on here..this was mine...

 

I expected to come back on here tonight after bandpractise to join in the chant

 

crucify him , crucify him, we have no god but Caesar

 

but instead I have been invited to a night out with Dave and that I am gratefully and gracefully thankful for. Unfortunately I feel here I am living in my own cultural wasteland and not seeing new bands anyway. And I have said in some of my own previous threads that I felt I was living in a cultural wasteland in the suburbs of Sydney so I thought the problem was endemic.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

[quote name=B3-erBTW, But I guess if the best band my country had given the world was Men At Work, I'd be a little disguntled, too. [/quote]

 

yep...we were so proud...it was the only men at work...the rest were on the dole.

[DanL]

If I understand you correctly, you're saying there are intrinsic lowered standards in pop music?

 

It is possible to dance and sing even if the music is pop.

 

[video:youtube]

 

I'm not saying it's a lower standard. It's a different standard. I think a lot MORE goes into a performance like a pop star puts on. It's not just about the artist, it's about the entire production of the event and they do what will give them the most consistent, reliable performance. How do we know that U2 or a band like that isn't flying in backing tracks or lip syncing when they are on week 50 of a tour and Bono's voice is shot?

 

Is that from a movie? So how many takes did he do, how many times did he stop? How do we know the voice wasn't overdubbed later, like it is in so many movies? We don't know. Plus it's a single song, not a 90 minute concert.

 

I'm not trying to make excuses for these entertainers. Personally I'd much rather see the act doing everything live. But, they do what they do because it sells tickets and CDs/DVDs or whatever. The audience for these acts wants to be dazzled. They don't want to watch the Jonas Brothers or Mylie Cyrus or Brittney standing in one spot wearing jeans and a tee shirt singing one song after another, like so many bar bands do.

[Dave Horne]

I guess the real troopers are those on Broadway.

 

I've only seen a few shows on Broadway and even the ones I didn't like were done extremely well. I was always thoroughly impressed by the professionalism of everyone.

[Tonysounds]

All I can say is.....hitting PLAY does not constitute live performance.

 

A live performance of what? Brittney sucks, but it is her up there dancing and performing. So she's not singing. The music makes up a VERY small percentage of why she's famous and why people come to see the show.

 

You're looking at this from the standpoint of a musician. That kind of entertainment is NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC.

 

Who cares?

 

Its a totally different world. Doesn't affect me at all.

 

BTW, blaming America for some sort of degradation of art/music is really silly. But I guess if the best band my country had given the world was Men At Work, I'd be a little disguntled, too.

 

 

 

The problem here is you think I am talking about Britney, or that I give a rats ass about Britney. Maybe you live in a cocoon, but this practice has become all pervasive. If it began and ended with Britney and that ilk, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place.

[Tonysounds]

Since it was brought up, U2 had backing tracks, and it was show 2 of the tour.

 

Like I said, this has become so 'standard' that most of the local bands here in Chicago use backing tracks, cover bands using backing tracks, and drawing quite well. Shall I out them? Why not....

 

Maggie Speaks, very popular regional draw, very very successful 4 man cover band, have spun the band off into some franchises, all use backing tracks. (puke)

 

Hooked On Sonics, very popular, very busy local 3 piece, haven't even figured out how to disguise the fact that most of their performance is played by the original artists. (double puke)

 

Lounge Puppets, a very successful local draw is a tribute to the 80s hairbands, uses backing tracks.

 

The Afrodisiacs, probably the first band to pull this stunt, 3 piece disco outfit with wigs and backing tracks, were working 4 nights a week, pulling anywhere from $3500 - $10k a nite, depending on the nite. They were doing this back in the late 80s through the present.

 

I could go on, but why bother, you get the point. When this practice becomes the 'standard', it does affect us as musicians, and as listeners, not to mention society as a whole. Part of the dumbing down of civilization.

 

When this gets so pervasive that live performance by musicians is frowned upon because it "doesnt' sound like the record", even B3er will find himself playing at home...or playing to backing tracks. As someone already pointed out, some national jazz artists are already resorting to this practice.

[Gismo Recording]

as an example as a budding keyboard player when I first heard say the "Cars" I thought I had gone to heaven...a well thought out mix of keyboards and guitar.One not dominating the other.

But of course the Cars always used sequences. Greg Hawkes did not play all the keyboard parts live. In fact when I saw them in concert back in the early 90's one of the units in a rack behind him had a light that was blinking in perfect quarter note time to every song.

[Eric Iverson]

To me, like Dave, it comes down to truth in advertising. If they want to sing or dance to recorded tracks, fine. Just don't lip synch or have musicians onstage pretending to play, if that's not what the audience is actually hearing.

 

It's like a movie - we all know there are stunt doubles, and that there are multiple takes stitched together to make the final product, and that the actors often don't hear the soundtrack until they see the actual movie - IF they do, LOL.

But if I go see a live play, I want to hear and see the actors in real time.

[iLaw]

Why stop at musical performances? Shouldn't others be required to give a disclaimer too?

 

Magicians: "Lady does not really get cut in half."

 

Psychics: "... not really reading your mind."

 

Comedians: "... not really very funny or perceptive in real life. Actually pretty much of a jerk."

 

Larry.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tonysounds]

And strippers: Pursuant to IL 7.368 Sec 8(d), Sub Paragraph 7, this establishment hereby notifies customers that the Entertainers (strippers) do not really like you, or intend to have any kind of intimate relationship with you, regardless of their stated intentions; rather, these are marketing ploys designed specifically to separate you from your cash. Any misinterpretation is solely the responsibility of the customer, and this establishment is not held liable for same.

[kanker.]

And strippers: Pursuant to IL 7.368 Sec 8(d), Sub Paragraph 7, this establishment hereby notifies customers that the Entertainers (strippers) do not really like you, or intend to have any kind of intimate relationship with you, regardless of their stated intentions; rather, these are marketing ploys designed specifically to separate you from your cash. Any misinterpretation is solely the responsibility of the customer, and this establishment is not held liable for same.

Heck yeah - just think of all the money I'd still have today!

 

 

uh...

[Phred]

Interesting thread for the most part. My take on prerecorded vocals, or string sections or whatever, is the unrealistic standard that it sets for people that try to do it the right way...

 

Eg - Yoyo ma prerecorded because his instrument wouldn't sound good outside. So the uninformed audience thinks that is what a cello played outside sounds like. or whatever - you see what I mean.

 

Most laypeople assume that if there is someone on stage with an instrument, that the noise you hear is coming from that instrument. Even when it's obvious to musicians that it isn't. That extends to vocals. If you are moving your lips, you must be singing.

 

To those of you that have backing tracks, that's your choice, and I agree that for some music you need it, _IF_ your goal is to sound exactly like the record. (My choice is to not sound exactly like the record in order to play everything live) However, I don't believe that it is fair to be annoyed when people think that your vocals are prerecorded.

 

Myself, if I 'discover' that a band is using tracks live, I instantly assume that anything that I can't prove is being played live, may not be. I also have to admit, that one of my 'signs' to spot a band playing to tracks was looking for the drummer getting a click in his ear. Well, in my current band, we play everything live, but our drummer uses a click. To keep us honest he says.

 

If anyone ever notices the earphone, and tells me that they think things are prerecorded, I'd like to think I would take that as a compliment... If that day ever comes, I'll let you know if I can practice what I preach...

 

[linwood]

I'm looking forward to this.

 

http://www.patmetheny.com/orchestrioninfo/

[Jim Alfredson]

 

Like I said, this has become so 'standard' that most of the local bands here in Chicago use backing tracks, cover bands using backing tracks, and drawing quite well. Shall I out them? Why not....

 

Maggie Speaks, very popular regional draw, very very successful 4 man cover band, have spun the band off into some franchises, all use backing tracks. (puke)

 

Hooked On Sonics, very popular, very busy local 3 piece, haven't even figured out how to disguise the fact that most of their performance is played by the original artists. (double puke)

 

Lounge Puppets, a very successful local draw is a tribute to the 80s hairbands, uses backing tracks.

 

The Afrodisiacs, probably the first band to pull this stunt, 3 piece disco outfit with wigs and backing tracks, were working 4 nights a week, pulling anywhere from $3500 - $10k a nite, depending on the nite. They were doing this back in the late 80s through the present.

 

Those bands are all cover bands, right?

 

[Tonysounds]

Yes, this practice is so pervasive it has filtered down to copy bands; but as we all know, most arena and theatre tours feature the same (backing tracks, etc.). Don't even go to the argument that 'it's because it's copy bands' as this started from your argument that 'it's only Britney, what do you expect'.

 

Another reason why jambands are so appealing to me: what you hear is what you see is what you get.

 

 

By the way, John Mayer of all people just was quoted in the newspaper here regarding this Britney story: "If those people in Australia were shocked that Britney was lip synching and want their money back, life is going to continue to be hard for them. Now THATS a funny guy!

T

 

[ProfD]

A disclaimer is ridiculous. The patrons know what they are going to see and hear. People aren't that naive.

 

I know 30+ year old folks who love Beyonce and paid $150 per ticket to catch her live performance.

 

I mentioned that a lot of her show is pre-recorded. They rolled their eyes and defended it with that is the only way she can dance and sing for 2 hours every night. Duh.

 

The "smart" people wait for Barbra Striesand to realize her bank account could use a few more zeros. They will gladly pay $500 or more per ticket to enjoy a real singer.

 

I'm assured of a live performance simply because only a handful of folks can fit in the venue.

 

If/when Ahmad Jamal comes out, plops an iPod on top of the piano and hits play, then I'll know it's a wrap.

[jarrell]

When this practice becomes the 'standard', it does affect us as musicians, and as listeners, not to mention society as a whole. Part of the dumbing down of civilization.

 

When this gets so pervasive that live performance by musicians is frowned upon because it "doesnt' sound like the record", even B3er will find himself playing at home...or playing to backing tracks.

I think there are two points here that Tony brings out. One is what this thread ostensibly is about, the dumbing down of national acts. But the other, which is "raising the bar" for local acts, potentially affects everyone who gigs (except, say, acoustic jazz ensembles, where the music is too improvisatory and hopefully the musicians too ethical to do it).

 

I know that when I hear an act that, for example, has really good backing vocals, and they clearly are live (and the cats are also playing an instrument at the same time, for that matter), I find it hard to transmit my enthusiasm to others who are non musicians. I wonder if, unlike 20 or 30 years ago, they are now comparing them to recordings, not other live bands.

 

 

[Dave Pierce]

I guess the real troopers are those on Broadway.

 

I've only seen a few shows on Broadway and even the ones I didn't like were done extremely well. I was always thoroughly impressed by the professionalism of everyone.

 

Not to hijack the topic here, but my wife and I went to see South Pacific at the Golden Gate Theatre in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago, and it was fabulous. I suppose the talent level on Broadway would be even higher, but this was a top-notch show. Excellent performances by everyone in the cast. And a full orchestra playing the music live. Really well done, and just a joy to watch.

 

Didn't see many of Britney's fans there, though.

 

--Dave

 

[iLaw]

Don't assume there's no lip-syncing going on Broadway. Not much, but it happens.

 

"... And during one song in "The Phantom of the Opera," actors choose whether to sing alongor just mouth the wordsto a prerecorded vocal track." (Wall Street Journal, October 23rd).

 

I'll let others spread the insulting rumors of other lip-syncing that some say has taken place in "Phantom" performances. I wasn't in the pit, so I only know what I read.

 

Larry.

 

[Dave Pierce]

Well, obviously as an audience member I can't say with 100% certainty that all the singing was live. But it sure looked and sounded like it from where I sat. Which was fairly close.

 

--Dave

[AUSSIEKEYS]

as an example as a budding keyboard player when I first heard say the "Cars" I thought I had gone to heaven...a well thought out mix of keyboards and guitar.One not dominating the other.

But of course the Cars always used sequences. Greg Hawkes did not play all the keyboard parts live. In fact when I saw them in concert back in the early 90's one of the units in a rack behind him had a light that was blinking in perfect quarter note time to every song.

 

higizmo

 

yes i know but the reference was to point out what was coming out of America at the time that amazed/excited'inspired me, not about substituted parts,but point taken, correct me if I'm wrong were they not considered one of the early bands to "sucessfully" incorporate sequences into their work,

 

Anyway my play on them is I believed they were incredibly good writers and arrangers that blew me away, and their musicianship perceived or not to me appeared brilliant. In fact my first original to receive airplay,and the most interest live I had always said was written during my "cars" period, trying to get that relationship between guitar and keyboard that they had. They were truley inspirational to me.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Not to hijack the topic here, but my wife and I went to see South Pacific at the Golden Gate Theatre in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago, --Dave

 

for me its very ironic you should say this...the time I had made my little "outburst" I had just literally finished watching the DVD of the motion picture of this musical that my lady had just bought.

 

Maybe that was why I was lamenting my percieved loss of what I believe is America's greatness for extravaganza...who can resist "there is nothing like a dame", these guys could write and score, or maybe I just live in the past too much...but as a songwriter I like to think it is this past that should be the foundation for the future.

[J. Dan]

I'll dive in here with a differentiation that hopefully doesn't ignite too much more on this already beat to death subject.

 

Tony and many others of you feel that to have anything at all sequenced or prerecorded immediately disqualifies the entire performance as live. In another thread, he indicated he felt the same way about use of an arpeggiator. I understand why he feels that way and respect it, in fact I probably agree with him more than most would think.

 

Where my opinion differs, is in what you ARE doing, not what you AREN'T. Those of you who feel you should not have any sequencing, mostly feel like you should just play what you can and leave the extra parts out, or do a different version. I've done this in other bands, but for a tribute band we try to sound more like the real thing. If I'm playing the same part either way, I don't believe having another track going diminishes what I'm playing - I'm still playing it. Except that I've gone to the EXTRA effort to sequence another part. I emphasize EXTRA because it IS a LOT of work sometimes. Usually I would prefer NOT to do it because it can be a PITA. But it IS extra work and helps add the finishing touches. But I always play as much as I can and only sequence if I think the mix would be lacking without a part.

 

I never FAKE a part - this is something I am absolutely dead set against, and I think more to the point of the original story. To some extent I can live with some backing tracks in a performance of that size - I don't like it, but I've come to accept it (Hell, if Rush does it, I can't expect that Britney Spears is going to be completely live) - but Faking it by lip syncing or not having instruments that are onstage coming through the PA or anything like that, I think is a completely different matter.

[Cygnus64]

Don't assume there's no lip-syncing going on Broadway. Not much, but it happens.

 

"... And during one song in "The Phantom of the Opera," actors choose whether to sing alongor just mouth the wordsto a prerecorded vocal track." (Wall Street Journal, October 23rd).

 

I'll let others spread the insulting rumors of other lip-syncing that some say has taken place in "Phantom" performances. I wasn't in the pit, so I only know what I read.

 

Larry.

 

I've played the show with the touring Broadway company many moons ago. As I recall there are one or two specialty numbers that involve "offstage" musicians, like a party scene for example. These might be "lip-synched" but you would have to see it in context to understand why. The "offstage" musicians are tape, simple economic reasons. It doesnt make much sense to pay union scale for a small orchestra to be behind the stage for 4 minutes.

 

Other than that there is no lip-synching because the pit players aren't wearing headphones. In most pits, you can barely hear the singers on stage. They can hear you but you can't hear them. Therefore, it has to be live.

 

Several shows use synths. I did Beauty and the Beast in 2001 and they were using 4 K2500s. The string section is only 2 violins and a cello, so everything is doubled with a synth. Cheap bastards.

[Cliffk]

It seems the horse has bolted. What's sad is that lip-syncing is becoming the standard for national acts. In Britain, it's remarkably rare to see a performer sing live in a TV spot.

 

For sheer audacity though, it's hard to surpass Westlife [don't look 'em up: you'll puke - seriously]. They're a boyband from these isles who have blithely (and successfully ) lip-synced to covers their entire career and had second-hand hits with most of them. Quite happy respectively to peddle and consume this effluent, Westlife and their public are guilty of creating a generation of ... shit, I'm too hacked off to go on.