What really constitutes a performance ... ?

[Tonysounds]

The Journey tribute Frontiers played here on Saturday; they bear the distinction of their singer being in Journey for a few weeks before creative unreconciable differences led to him taking a one way trip home. One of the bands I play with was in the other room, so I wandered over to see/hear them. Great backing tracks....if you like bad clanky piano sounds and gobs of effected vocals. The drummer sure could twirl his sticks, and that was real.

[Cygnus64]

I'd be pissed if I went to hear a jazz or classical artist where they didn't actually play, though! So far, that hasn't happened!

 

Perlman and Yo Yo did at Obama's gig.

 

Sydney Symphony and Utah Symphony did at their Olympics.

 

Pavarotti did, got sued and lost.

 

If I recall correctly, Perlman and Yo Yo simulated playing at Obama's gig because of the ambient outside temperature issues wreaking havoc with the intonation of the instruments, not for any other reason. I'm pretty certain that had they been playing indoors or outside on a nice spring day (instead of January 20th), they would have played live.

 

Of course. I have to wonder if there wasnt a better way of doing it, like having them play inside and have it piped out while video was on screens or something.

 

Parades are also a good example of lip-synching. I'm heartbroken that Ferris Bueller wasn't actually singing Twist and Shout up there.

[duff beer]

If you want to see a live musical performance, go see a real band.

 

That doesn't always work...I saw ZZ Top about 10 years ago and couldn't figure out where the keyboard player was...

[Tonysounds]

If you want to see a live musical performance, go see a real band.

 

That doesn't always work...I saw ZZ Top about 10 years ago and couldn't figure out where the keyboard player was...

 

Thats funny, cuz regarding ZZTops 80s mega-years, I always wondered why the keyboards were there.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Ok Ok you dont like me joking around well here is my stance

 

The Horse has long bolted for any control on performances, what good is all this "disclaimer stuff" when the audiences of these so called entertainers don't give a rat's arse whether they lip synch or not. Culture is now what baseball cap you wear.

 

Personally anyone who is prepared to pay the top dollar they ask is also prepared to put up with the singers way of doing it. And good luck to them, just put another real musician out of work, what's it really matter, the world is too overpopulated anyway to support so many musicians, we keep trying to nuture young people as musicians, yeah and what for to put out this trash and rob old musicians of jobs..

 

I am serious, I cringe when I see all the opportunities young people have to play music [but perhaps I am jealous I didnt have these opportunities?]...it is no longer for the dedicated, it is for the masses, and the masses just treat it as another baseball cap to wear, If you have to struggle to become a muso then you will treat it with respect, if its given to you on a plate then you will use it till it bores you and you have made your money...music is too easy now....we have opened the door to its cultural degredation and I am afraid it is too late..

 

musicians are no longer special, no longer artisans, no longer a dedicated life partner to music but a fleeting opportunist and you created this nightmare...you with your musical degree purchasable on a television program.

 

you created this nightmare America you deal with it.

Australia has its own just as bad nightmare of only wanting to see clone shows of overseas acts...how many tribute bands do we have to put up with, how many Abba's how many Beatles etc.

 

It's enough old famous performers come here to die [well live out their fading stardom] such as Leo Sayer,or oveaseas artists on there last legs of fame come here with a fanfare before their star fades, and we lap it up, us stardom starved Aussies, the last bastion of fading star acceptance, but you throw upon us crap like Pink who we seem to have taken as our own...how many times must I hear her crap on the radio..but maybe she dosent lip synch...just write all her songs the same.

 

Now lets reallly get down to it here...Its all your fault America...it is you who has pushed these situations on the world and now you complain..well its too late to fix it, its too late to complain, its too late for culture, its too late , its just too late. The world is now a cultural waisteland, powered by the ever expanding dollar, the American dollar, it is America who started all the "lets create a band or artist out of nothing for the dollars" one of the earliest examples "The Monkees"

 

but I laugh when I tell you my favourite band of all time is ....................the Monkees.....

hee hee ..fair dinkum

 

Aussiekeys laughs , picks his nose as he says "the Monkees" and turns away and walks off doing the Monkee walk.

 

well you didnt think I could end on a serious note ...did you.

 

you did it.......blame it on the gipper

 

[EscapeRocks]

The Journey tribute Frontiers played here on Saturday; they bear the distinction of their singer being in Journey for a few weeks before creative unreconciable differences led to him taking a one way trip home. One of the bands I play with was in the other room, so I wandered over to see/hear them. Great backing tracks....if you like bad clanky piano sounds and gobs of effected vocals. The drummer sure could twirl his sticks, and that was real.

 

 

Yeah, I think Jeremy is/was a member here on KC for awhile.

 

 

[Tonysounds]

The lead vocalist could definitely sing. No keyboard player (all pre-recorded), one guitarist, bassist and drummer, some live background vocals, but always supplemented by backing tracked vocals. Makes me wonder why anyone would tour as a tribute band, and do it with prerecorded tracks. The folks weren't buying it either; Chicago is a hotbed of Journey bands!

 

And why is backtrackers, lip synchers and other fakery AMERICA's fault?????

[Dave Horne]

... powered by the ever expanding dollar ...

 

Uh, as an American who converts a modest US pension into Euros ... and who just saw an CNN TV segment tonight on the lessening power of the US dollar (and the Euro becoming the currency to which others are based), your comment rings hollow ... and just plain false.

 

For some reason I feel this will become yet another thread which will become deleted.

 

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

And why is backtrackers, lip synchers and other fakery AMERICA's fault?????

 

hi Tony

am not sure what a back tracker is?

didnt mention fakery

but did talk about lip synchers or should we call them lip sinkers.

 

well it goes back to your Broadway heritage and the need for extravaganzas...even on your cartoon shows you cant but not kick into a full on extravaganza stageshow or musical on many episodes.

 

its your broadway shows and early cinema that created huge performances and this has continued to carryon thru to now when America expects full on shows, the difference is in the old days muso played and singers sang...now the show is so huge and the singer dances so much they physically can not sing...

 

so you see I believe it is part of your recent musical show back ground that probably started in the 30's in cinema and on Broadway..it just now has far eclisped those shows in the physical side of it where it is so big now that shortcuts are taken.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

[i.

 

For some reason I feel this will become yet another thread which will become deleted.

 

 

i dont think so dave as I am not anti American, infact I am a fan of much of America, I just figured you guys were sick of my strange Aussie humour, its either my Aussie humour or I say it as I see it.

 

Its a forum and as such is open to the worlds thoughts.

 

yours this time on something happening in Aussie.

[J. Dan]

The lead vocalist could definitely sing. No keyboard player (all pre-recorded), one guitarist, bassist and drummer, some live background vocals, but always supplemented by backing tracked vocals. Makes me wonder why anyone would tour as a tribute band, and do it with prerecorded tracks. The folks weren't buying it either; Chicago is a hotbed of Journey bands!

 

I believe a tribute band should try to replicate the original lineup as closely as possible. Journey did all their vocals, and had a keyboard play, so should a tribute band.

 

The other bad result of all this is that people assume you're using backing tracks when you aren't. Admittedly, some songs in our list have sequences - but I don't fake anything. If there is an arpeggiator going, I don't sit there and try to act like I'm hammering out 1/32 notes over a 5 octave range, I stand back and let the keyboard do it's thing while I play my parts.

 

And we absolutely do not record any vocal backing tracks. But yet, when we do some of the stuff like Journey, or Outfield, or other songs with lots of harmonies, we get people - even those who are fans and really like it - saying things like - so those vocals were recorded, right? NO!!!! Why would you think that? Well, it just sounded so much like the real thing. So think in order to sound like the real thing, it must be recorded? I guess it's so common place that they expect it. A shame really.

[EscapeRocks]

 

I believe a tribute band should try to replicate the original lineup as closely as possible. Journey did all their vocals, and had a keyboard play, so should a tribute band.

 

But yet, when we do some of the stuff like Journey, or Outfield, or other songs with lots of harmonies, we get people - even those who are fans and really like it - saying things like - so those vocals were recorded, right? NO!!!! Why would you think that? Well, it just sounded so much like the real thing. So think in order to sound like the real thing, it must be recorded? I guess it's so common place that they expect it. A shame really.

 

+1000

 

Exactly.

 

We work very hard on the vocals. All five of us sing, and we dissect the recordings to get the proper harmony parts down.

 

We know we're NOT Journey. However, people coming to see us get the "Journey Experience," in that we take them away for a few hours to a Journey concert right down to me playing guitar on those songs that Jon Cain plays guitar on. No faking, and so forth. It's what our audience is paying to hear.

 

Some of my favorite compliments are those that mention our vocals, as again, we take pride in all five of us singing.

 

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

before anyone thinks I am bashing America for the sake of it...

I am not ...I am bashing audiences for accepting this stuff,but I am just stating where I think it all came from, [whose country has the most influential producers??????]

 

I get tired of hearing people winge about it, including the aussie minister, when I think its really too late to do anything about it. If the producers couldnt make money from it then it would not happen, so it is money driven [whether that $ is taking a batttering or not.].Remember when record producers sweated on an artists next original album, not dance step. If original songs were still the criteria, then we'd be back to seeing original bands in every pub in town instead of paying a fortune for an extravaganza.

 

I equally bashed Aussie for its love of tribute bands...people just wont go out to see local original music, the movie makers are just as bad always using old hits instead of new music.

No disrespect to those who play in tribute bands there is definately a need and a skill in creating a tribute...its just that here [sydney] original music just does not exist outside of the inner city...but tribute bands do a roaring trade in the suburbs...of which I live.[i would like to go to my local pub/club and hear some original songs instead of up to an hour to hour and a half drive to the inner city]I dont understand it other than Aussie missed a lot of overseas performers because of distance but can see their tribute down the road as an "instead of"

 

I have just joined a cover band as the original band I joined was taking too long to happen, so I am not opposed to covers and been in more cover bands and midi file bands than my beloved original bands..so not an originals snob.

 

and yes I once joined a Johnny Cash tribute band just to keep hold of my songwriting partner as she had been head hunted for johnnies girl...needless to say when we were being offered possible work in America I opted out thinking why should we send a tribute to America of an American Icon from Australia..it would be like sending "coals to Newcastle" totally rediculous.so endeth my foray into tribute bands.

 

I just feel that after the 80's the audiences have definately changed and want more than just a band...enter the extravaganza complete with dancing that cant be sung to. I know where I think that originated...maybe i am wrong, maybe not, does it matter if I blame a particular origin, is it not just another genre' of music that history will give credit to a country of origin like it has with jazz, what will it matter in 30 years anyway ,all the future will hear is the greatly produced albums and videos. And then every country will want the credit for this wonderful musical experience.

 

And you will get a warm feeling as you remember you were there when it happened or even performed on some of these historical recordings. And all will be right with the world and also with you and me and we will have a beer and smile as we remember our differences...hee hee

 

 

ps what is wrong today with the posting page?

[The Real MC]

If there are any backing tracks then it is pretty much a karaoke show.

 

Dub vocals over the real "singer" and it's a great big 5.1 movie matinee.

 

For a feature artist who doesn't sing any better than most karaoke "singers" that's a pretty poor value.

 

I think I deserve to know what I am getting in return for my $$$.

[Jim Alfredson]

I can just see the disclaimer now:

 

Warning: Portions of this performance may be recorded previously. Other portions are derived from samples (please see inset for an explanation of digital sampling).

 

The piano that the keyboardist is using is not a real piano. It is a digital keyboard inside a real piano case.

 

The Rhodes electric piano sound is actually from a Yamaha Motif XS digital keyboard. Please see inset for an explanation of what a Rhodes is.

 

Some backing vocals are run through Auto-Tune. Please see inset for an explanation of what Auto-Tune is.

 

The drum kit is mic'd and processed with various dynamic and equalization processors. A real kick drum doesn't sound like what you'll hear in this performance. A real snare drum doesn't have 200 milliseconds of gated reverb on it. Please see inset for explanations of gated reverb.

 

All reverbs and delays are from digital effects units and are not occurring naturally.

 

 

And on and on...

 

 

I mean seriously, where would it end?

 

I actually saw the submission form for a jazz festival in Indiana and they wanted you to sign an affidavit that the recording you included did not contain any "digital editing". And yet you could only submit it on CD.

 

Uh....

 

 

This whole thing is ridiculous. Anyone who thinks Brittney is really singing is a moron. I don't care that she can't sing; I expect it. She's not a musician. She's an entertainer.

 

Disclaimers on tickets? Getting the legislature involved? Are you crazy?

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

.

 

Disclaimers on tickets? Getting the legislature involved? Are you crazy?

 

hee hee

how long would the ticket be...how much would they charge us extra for the physically bigger tickets...eh.. now there is a $ idea the producers hadnt thought of...

[Dave Pierce]

Aussiekeys, I think I like your posts much better when you haven't been drinking heavily.

 

But what do I know, I'm from the cultural wasteland that invented jazz, blues, rock 'n roll, soul and funk.

 

 

--Dave

 

[Eric Jx]

Disclaimers on tickets? Getting the legislature involved? Are you crazy?

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Let's face it....nobody on this forum would consider going to a britney concert, so why are we so concerned about her lip-syncing? I'm sure the people who do go, don't really care.

 

To each his own.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Aussiekeys, I think I like your posts much better when you haven't been drinking heavily.

 

But what do I know, I'm from the cultural wasteland that invented jazz, blues, rock 'n roll, soul and funk.

 

 

--Dave

 

yea maybe you are right dave, but unfortunately I dont drink at all,

 

my reference to cultural wasteland is to do with the here and now not the past,its is the lamenting that the once great American extravaganza show that began in the 30's has now become a lip synching dance show with no or few musicians involved.

a producers greed or need for money has slowly taken what was once great and reduced it to a sad but still glamourous form of entertainment.Or so the kiddies think so.

 

You were the country that started extravaganzas and the world loved them, now the world is sad at the loss of true artistry in the current extravaganzas that are obviously controlled by producers generally only interested in the return on the $ not the artistry that extravaganza was once famous for...you created it, please dont let the producers take that away from you.

 

America is the creator of extravaganza's and as in all forms of art it develops with time...in this genre you see many forms of music as in the 30's, just now it emcompases many forms too,but the control is` now in the hands of fewer people and it is being talked about in some circles with disdain...ie evryone here lamenting on the lip synching and the miming..

 

if you can get the kids to stop buying the product the producers will look for new avenues...but its the producers who actually tell the kids what they should like.

 

ps have I been censored as the posting page is playing up making it extremely difficult to write on here...hee hee

[Eric Jx]

ps have I been censored as the posting page is playing up making it extremely difficult to write on here...hee hee

 

The latest upgrade to internet explorer creates problems with the posting page. Next to the address bar this is a compatibility button (it looks like a ripped white page). If you click it, it will use IE's compatibility mode and the posting page will behave.

[Cygnus64]

my reference to cultural wasteland is to do with the here and now not the past,its is the lamenting that the once great American extravaganza show that began in the 30's has now become a lip synching dance show with no or few musicians involved.

a producers greed or need for money has slowly taken what was once great and reduced it to a sad but still glamourous form of entertainment.Or so the kiddies think so.

 

You were the country that started extravaganzas and the world loved them, now the world is sad at the loss of true artistry in the current extravaganzas that are obviously controlled by producers generally only interested in the return on the $ not the artistry that extravaganza was once famous for...you created it, please dont let the producers take that away from you.

 

 

That's just silly.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

oh well not much more I can say as I am obviously going to dig my self deeper, and the damn reply page is really playing up,making it extremely hard to write stuff,

i really hope i'm not being censored and its just a coincidence..

 

ahh love a conspiracy story...hee hee

[AUSSIEKEYS]

ps have I been censored as the posting page is playing up making it extremely difficult to write on here...hee hee

 

The latest upgrade to internet explorer creates problems with the posting page. Next to the address bar this is a compatibility button (it looks like a ripped white page). If you click it, it will use IE's compatibility mode and the posting page will behave.

 

oh thanks mate

just changed to internet explorer on my girlfriends computer...you just explained that problem...thank god..I didnt want to remain paranoid on here now that i am a naughty boy..never do like getting into aggressive discussions on forums because its a lot of angst for no reason...none of us exist unless you hear us fall in the forest.

 

ohh ohh it works a treat...thanks mate

 

think i'll just slink back to my non oppinionated me....

i've been on this damn computer all morning and should literally be practissing the new songs for practise tonight...geez what a time wasting experience having an opinion is ...especially with the badly performing post page.

 

I know how to get off the subject...heh what about those Knicks?

cheers Aussie

[Eric Jx]

none of us exist unless you hear us fall in the forest.

 

If Helen Keller falls in a forest, does she make a noise?

[Joe Muscara]

What B3er said is what I've been trying to say.

 

Besides, Rhodes' and Wurlies were invented to sound like or replace acoustic pianos, and the Hammond/Leslie to sound like a pipe organ. I guess those need disclaimers too.

[Tonysounds]

According to Herbie Herbert (Journey's manager from day one until their heyday was over), Journey is/was using backing tracks for vocals live. http://www.melodicrock.com/interviews/herbieherbert.html

(An interesting read if you want real dirt.)

 

I've heard from others that very recently there's more than vocals on those tracks these days.

 

All I can say is.....hitting PLAY does not constitute live performance.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

none of us exist unless you hear us fall in the forest.

 

If Helen Keller falls in a forest, does she make a noise?

 

no she doesnt but there will need to be a disclaimer on the ticket....still she could be lip synching.

[Cygnus64]

Any disclaimer should come with full disclosure as to WHY there is a tape or samples involved:

 

1. "These cheap bastards were too cheap to hire a string section".

 

2. " (insert young female singer) can't really sing, but look how good her tits bounce".

 

3. "Our brother's voice is changing so we can't do that Time to Change song".

Oh wait, that's the Brady Bunch, my mistake. Sha na na na.....

 

 

 

[wmp]

I have to wonder if there wasnt a better way of doing it, like having them play inside and have it piped out while video was on screens or something.

 

Because these events are organized by idiots to whom musicians are appliances.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

All I can say is.....hitting PLAY does not constitute live performance.

 

A live performance of what? Brittney sucks, but it is her up there dancing and performing. So she's not singing. The music makes up a VERY small percentage of why she's famous and why people come to see the show.

 

You're looking at this from the standpoint of a musician. That kind of entertainment is NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC.

 

Who cares?

 

Its a totally different world. Doesn't affect me at all.

 

BTW, blaming America for some sort of degradation of art/music is really silly. But I guess if the best band my country had given the world was Men At Work, I'd be a little disguntled, too.