Yamaha YC88 and YC73

[Eddie Edwards]

I have to agree with Woody here.... the YC61 keeps me playing for hours in a way my electro didn't. Its partly because iv got either the iPad or laptop with keyscape running through it, but it certainly is immersive and fun. The YC61, in my opinion, beats nord on EP sounds, Wurli sounds, Clav sounds, synth patches, keybed and conncetability/audio interface. However Nord AP sounds are clear winners and the YC organ doesn't come close to the mojo 61 (VB3II). To that end you'd be better getting a CP73 and a mojo module to sit on top (about the same cost in total)

[ChazKeys]

I think what Yamaha are doing here is accepting that they should have put an organ section CP range. Forumites did say at the time that time it needed one and ROMpler organs were poor. So it was easier to release YC61 and see what the reaction was - which seems to have been very positive - then release the YC73 which is essentially a CP73 with the organ. They will quietly forget about the CP73 but continue with the CP88 as it has the much better keybed and is more of a stage piano than a stage keyboard.

 

If price wasn't a factor the YC73 kills the CP73. It also has a filter although does not have dedicated attack and release controls (which are only effective on some sounds BTW). I'll wait for the price but I think I'm going to have to shift the CP

 

Master EQ - is what it says. Like the CP it's across all sections or none. Which is the same as the Electro. Well done Hammond for having separate EQ.

[AnotherScott]

I currently have a CP73 and it doesn't sound nearly as detailed as that YC performance...granted the performance itself is very nuanced. Although it does seem to be a running theme for me when it comes to Youtube demos of Yamaha pianos vs when I actually play them for myself in person - maybe it has something to do with the EQ...

For this comparison, are you listening to the youtube demo and the actual CP73 through the same playback system (e.g. same headphones)?

 

I think it might be safe to assume that creating a high trigger option for the YC range is not exactly going to be top of Yamaha's 'to do' mod list now ---

It would have been nice for the YC61, but not exactly that useful on the new weighted 73 or 88 versions?

The hammer action Nord Electro/Stage models, Kurzweil Forte/PC4 models, and Kawai MP7/7SE have high trigger for the organ functions. It helps. Arguably even more than on the non-hammer boards, since they help an inherently slower feeling action feel not as slow.

 

I'm trying to get my head round the logic for issuing an 88 note - against their own CP88 - and why the YC73 is not a waterfall just has me scratching my head ?

They may have felt there was more profit opportunity competing against particularly the Nords I mentioned (and maybe Korg SV2, another similar kind of board, where one of the remaining complaints is that it's still weak on organ). I see that more in the case of the 73, where, as I mentioned earlier, they can claim better-than-TP100 action or lighter travel weight than the competition. The case for the 88 is a bit tougher, but they might still claim to have the best action of the bunch. The 7x semi-weighted organ-engine market is a more crowded (Nord, Hammond, Roland, Dexibell, Kurzweil, Vox). There is some logic to choosing to sell into a market of pricier gear with fewer competitors than a market of lower priced gear with more competitors. The counter argument is that the reason the latter is the market with more competitors is that that's what most of the buyers are looking for. But that's their job to try to figure out.

 

Also, as Nord has shown, having a 7x-key version with one action does not preclude the possibility of also having a 7x-key version with the other. Maybe there's a longer term plan here (that may also be influenced by how the YCs sell).

 

Here's another theory: Maybe the CP73/CP88 haven't met sales expectations, and this is also a way of refreshing that product and better making use of their investment in the production of those actions. Alternatively, maybe the CP73/CP88 are selling great, and they want a pricier version they can upsell to. But hey, I can make things up all day. ;-)

[CEB]

Boring .... I wanted a new SK50d. YAWN.

[ChazKeys]

Boring .... I wanted a new SK50d. YAWN.

 

Hang in there - I reckon a Yammy synth is coming! Might be the SK30 though.

[16251]

Incoming

 

His Stinkface let me know this was going to be a good.

[counterpoint]

Here's another theory: Maybe the CP73/CP88 haven't met sales expectations, and this is also a way of refreshing that product and better making use of their investment in the production of those actions. Alternatively, maybe the CP73/CP88 are selling great, and they want a pricier version they can upsell to. But hey, I can make things up all day. ;-)

 

I would espouse to the theory of production economies. Like Casio's Privia series, they can change the top panel and some of the guts but keep the rest from the CP. If someone really wants 73 keys instead of 61 they are betting that such a buyer will find that important enough not to be dissuaded by living with a weighted keybed for organ. BTW, Yamaha lists MSRP for the three models at $500 increments. Guessing street price for 73 will be $2,499 and for the 88 it will $2,999.

 

Re OS update and sound additions, I really like the new pianos (I know they were already in the CP). The Nashville isn't perfectly tuned so it has an earthy, real world quality to it...I can't think of a comparable piano in the Nord library. The modulation changes are a bit out of left field. The difference is that you can fix a starting mod level right into the initial Live Set sound...but don't touch the mod stick if you want it to stay at that level because once you do and pull it back, it zeros out the modulation. I think this was a workaround to the complaint that there was no quick modulation method for the transistor organs.

[ElmerJFudd]

I think what Yamaha are doing here is accepting that they should have put an organ section CP range. Forumites did say at the time that time it needed one and ROMpler organs were poor. So it was easier to release YC61 and see what the reaction was - which seems to have been very positive - then release the YC73 which is essentially a CP73 with the organ. They will quietly forget about the CP73 but continue with the CP88 as it has the much better keybed and is more of a stage piano than a stage keyboard.

 

If price wasn't a factor the YC73 kills the CP73. It also has a filter although does not have dedicated attack and release controls (which are only effective on some sounds BTW). I'll wait for the price but I think I'm going to have to shift the CP

 

Master EQ - is what it says. Like the CP it's across all sections or none. Which is the same as the Electro. Well done Hammond for having separate EQ.

 

This is logical. Assuming that good sales prompted further investment in the YC line then we can all hope that Yamaha are listening to Yamaha IdeaScale and we will see further work on the Leslie simulation, and making better use of the FM engine onboard - it really should be able to load up more FM sounds.

 

Also, note the YC88 is $3k. The CP88 is $2.5k. So Yamaha is charging $500 for that organ section.

 

Confounds me for all the success Yamaha has had in Modeling VCM FX why they can't nail a good rotary - which has been done by a lot smaller outfits. The Yamaha THR sounds great, btw. Surely study of one good Leslie cabinet is within their grasp. Ah hell, they should just make NeoInstruments an offer they can't refuse.

[stoken6]

Sadly, that BHS action on the CP73 wasn"t a succes. Clunky, GHS style.

Different strokes, I love the way mine feels and plays, definitely don't find it sluggish or clunky. My favorite action so far for a stage piano, where you also play EP's. It feels better and more quality to me than that of my P115, which itself is just ok. I was surprised to read where Mr. Dave Ferris didn't like it but AFAIK he just put his hands on one at the store, never gigged on one.

I'm in the middle. I played a GHS-equipped P125, and a CP73, and while they weren't fantastic, they were tolerable. Plus, as Scott mentioned, the low weight of this action puts it in competition with TP/100 equipped boards, which are imho ... not tolerable.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Bif_]

Boring .... I wanted a new SK50d. YAWN.

 

Hang in there - I reckon a Yammy synth is coming! Might be the SK30 though.

 

I owned an SK30 back in the day. What a great board at the time. I got a lot of mileage out of the monosynth section too.

[ProfD]

Possibility. Yamaha research says their piano players aren"t interested in playing organ, unless 'in a pinch'. And those players have been satisfied with their organ efforts. So dedicated organ section stays off the CP line. But by that logic, why did they do with hammer action on the organ centric YC line? Maybe because it"s the Nord Electro they want to compete with.

Agreed. IMO, the YC88 fulfills the same requirement especially for KB players who play organ sounds in a non-B3 manner i.e. no squabbles and palm smears.

[Bif_]

 

Confounds me for all the success Yamaha has had in Modeling VCM FX why they can't nail a good rotary - which has been done by a lot smaller outfits...........Surely study of one good Leslie cabinet is within their grasp. Ah hell, they should just make NeoInstruments an offer they can't refuse.

 

I recall the insane effort that Yamaha invested in the Motif's EP's. Saw a video of their obsessive attention to detail, citing research in specific Rhodes pianos, effects, etc. The Japanese engineers seemed to be crazy obsessed, and this was just for EP programs on a workstation. I'm confident they COULD break down how to get to a great Leslie sound, but I suspect it's not deemed a priority, or it would have otherwise been done.

 

Regarding Neo licensing (or whatever they'd do), That's the move they make when they're ready to retire. Doing it now would likely destroy their current business model.

[pawelsz]

Hey guys,

it is simple:

 

YC61 - Yamaha Electro D 61

YC73 - Yamaha Electro HP 73

YC88 - Yamaha Stage HA 88 (or rather Electro 88 HA)

CP88 - Yamaha Piano HA 88

CP73 - Yamaha Piano HP 73

 

 

Sadly, that BHS action on the CP73 wasn"t a succes. Clunky, GHS style.

Different strokes, I love the way mine feels and plays, definitely don't find it sluggish or clunky. My favorite action so far for a stage piano, where you also play EP's. It feels better and more quality to me than that of my P115, which itself is just ok. I was surprised to read where Mr. Dave Ferris didn't like it but AFAIK he just put his hands on one at the store, never gigged on one.

I'm in the middle. I played a GHS-equipped P125, and a CP73, and while they weren't fantastic, they were tolerable. Plus, as Scott mentioned, the low weight of this action puts it in competition with TP/100 equipped boards, which are imho ... not tolerable.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

So you can confirm that BHS is just non-graded GHS?

[ElmerJFudd]

The naming definitely implies that. I"ve played Yamaha P"s often, and the GHS on the MOX8. Yeah it"s not an NW-GH but it"s not the worst in class either. On the MOX8 it was pretty nice to play with what they included for piano sounds. I haven"t played the CP73.

[AnotherScott]

Confounds me for all the success Yamaha has had in Modeling VCM FX why they can't nail a good rotary - which has been done by a lot smaller outfits...........Surely study of one good Leslie cabinet is within their grasp.

I recall the insane effort that Yamaha invested in the Motif's EP's. Saw a video of their obsessive attention to detail, citing research in specific Rhodes pianos, effects, etc. The Japanese engineers seemed to be crazy obsessed, and this was just for EP programs on a workstation. I'm confident they COULD break down how to get to a great Leslie sound, but I suspect it's not deemed a priority, or it would have otherwise been done.

No, I think they really did try. Look at

, where more than half of it focusses on the organ sound, including the Leslie. I think they thought they succeeded... and hopefully are now further addressing it after seeing a substantial amount of negative feedback.

 

I think maybe it's just a really hard thing to do. And saying something like "company X can do something, why can't company Y?" is something like saying "that team's starting rotation has a 2.0 ERA, why can't your team do the same?" Like pitchers, engineers have their own unique talents and abilities, and companies also have their own unique technologies (and patents, btw)... you can't always get the result you want just by throwing more effort at it. You need some of the good fortune of inspired brilliance. Plus also, yes, a design can have cost constraints. I suspect Yamaha will be able to improve it. I wouldn't count on Vent quality, though. But who knows.

 

Ah hell, they should just make NeoInstruments an offer they can't refuse.

Regarding Neo licensing (or whatever they'd do), That's the move they make when they're ready to retire. Doing it now would likely destroy their current business model.

None of us knows the particulars here, but there are plenty of reasons that might be easier said than done. Yes, Neo's willingness. Also a company's willingness to admit they can't figure out how to do something as well as some other company did it. (I don't think Japanese pride is merely a stereotype.) Also, we don't know that Yamaha could make a licensed Vent any more cheaply than Neo does. We don't know that the existing hardware of the YC is capable of running what the Vent is doing, and Yamaha may require larger margins than Neo does. What if all of that results in "building a $500 Neo into a YC61" adding $800+ to the cost of a YC61? Not impossible. Also consider that the price has to also cover Neo's licensing fee (or an amortized portion of an outright purchase). I don't know that any of this is true of course... good chance it's way off the mark. My point is only that "why don't they just do what that other company did" or "why don't they just buy the tech from the other company" may not be as simple as they sound on the surface.

[rogs]

....So you can confirm that BHS is just non-graded GHS?

 

According the Yamaha's 'Bad Mister' (Phil Clendeninn) ---

 

"The CP73 has Yamaha"s Balanced Hammer Standard action, which is similar to the feel of the weighted action found in MONTAGE8, Motif XF8/XS8, S90 XS/S70 XS.... Yamaha"s top-of-the-line synthesizers"....

 

The GHS keybed - as fitted to my Yamaha P105 - feels nothing like the Motif XF8 or Montage 88 BHS keyboards I've played...

[Adan]

 

I would espouse to the theory of production economies. Like Casio's Privia series, they can change the top panel and some of the guts but keep the rest from the CP.

 

This makes a lot of sense. It probably was a fairly minimal production modification to create the new YCs from existing CP and YC61 components.

 

I interpret the absence of a semi-weighted YC73 to mean it's probably not coming anytime soon, or at all. So the YC line now gives good options for the piano player who just needs a little organ on the side, but nothing equivalent to the Nord Electro 73 for the reverse mindset. It's too bad.

[ElmerJFudd]

Good points. Assuming Yamaha looked at how others are doing the Leslie modeling and developed the same or similar parameters - they really should be able to fix this by tweaking and improving based on feedback.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

The comparison of the YC88 to a Nord Stage makes sense to me and stopped my head-scratching. It's a solid choice to have the most flexible, powerful all-in-one board possible, configured for someone who is predominantly a pianist. Indeed, a scant five years ago, that would have really, really appealed to me.

 

As it stands, as the owner of a vintage A100, a boutique dual-manual clonewheel, and a Nord Electro 4D, I'm just hoping this makes it easier to find a good deal on a CP88. :grin:

[ElmerJFudd]

....So you can confirm that BHS is just non-graded GHS?

 

According the Yamaha's 'Bad Mister' (Phil Clendeninn) ---

 

"The CP73 has Yamaha"s Balanced Hammer Standard action, which is similar to the feel of the weighted action found in MONTAGE8, Motif XF8/XS8, S90 XS/S70 XS.... Yamaha"s top-of-the-line synthesizers"....

 

The GHS keybed - as fitted to my Yamaha P105 - feels nothing like the Motif XF8 or Montage 88 BHS keyboards I've played...

 

Unfortunate you can"t make assumptions by model name. The Montage 8 action does in fact play well. I prefer the CP-88"s. But it"s not a cheap feeling action on the Montage.

[rogs]

....So you can confirm that BHS is just non-graded GHS?

 

According the Yamaha's 'Bad Mister' (Phil Clendeninn) ---

 

"The CP73 has Yamaha"s Balanced Hammer Standard action, which is similar to the feel of the weighted action found in MONTAGE8, Motif XF8/XS8, S90 XS/S70 XS.... Yamaha"s top-of-the-line synthesizers"....

 

The GHS keybed - as fitted to my Yamaha P105 - feels nothing like the Motif XF8 or Montage 88 BHS keyboards I've played...

 

Unfortunate you can"t make assumptions by model name. The Montage 8 action does in fact play well. I prefer the CP-88"s. But it"s not a cheap feeling action on the Montage.

 

I agree -- both the Montage 8 and the MotifXF8 keybeds feel very nice ---

 

The point I was making was in response to the query as to whether the "BHS was simply non - graded GHS" --- To which the answer is no!

[AnotherScott]

....So you can confirm that BHS is just non-graded GHS?

 

According the Yamaha's 'Bad Mister' (Phil Clendeninn) ---

 

"The CP73 has Yamaha"s Balanced Hammer Standard action, which is similar to the feel of the weighted action found in MONTAGE8, Motif XF8/XS8, S90 XS/S70 XS.... Yamaha"s top-of-the-line synthesizers"....

 

The GHS keybed - as fitted to my Yamaha P105 - feels nothing like the Motif XF8 or Montage 88 BHS keyboards I've played...

 

I agree -- both the Montage 8 and the MotifXF8 keybeds feel very nice ---

 

The point I was making was in response to the query as to whether the "BHS was simply non - graded GHS" --- To which the answer is no!

The answer is, AFAIK, still unknown.

 

Even if the CP73 is a non-graded GHS, it would still be a true statement that it would be "similar to the feel of the weighted action found in MONTAGE8, Motif XF8/XS8, S90 XS/S70 XS," in the respect of feeling the same from top to bottom.

It would be true, but not sufficient to answer your question. I'm not saying that's what Phil response meant... I'm saying that, from the quote, you can't be sure either way.

 

BTW, I saw a video where someone trimmed all the weights of a GHS MODX8 to make all the keys the same (light). He found it to be an improvement. He called it a conversion to BHE, that's not true. But depending on the actual weight chosen, it's possible it was not far from a BHS... *if* in fact the BHS is a balanced (non-graded) version of the GHS.

[Dockeys]

I had a CP73 briefly..the action is a big improvement over the MODX8 and the P series that have the GHS action. I have a MODX and Ive had several of the P series pianos over the years along with the Motif ES8/XS8/S90/S90ES etc.

 

I don't think the CP73 is identical to the Montage 8 which I have also played but its not a million miles away. If you offered me the choice of action between the CP73 and MODX8 id pick the CP73 every time, however the MODX8 wins for sound palette. I can live with the action of the MODX8 because of the sound and the lighter weight.

 

I said it on another thread if the CP73 had the MODX engine id definitely revisit it. As it stands the newer YC73 and 88 models do look interesting but I think the bread and butter sounds outside the pianos and organs seem weaker or at least a cursory attempt at trying to appeal to a wider audience. And the YC73 and 88 are commanding a big price for what to me is essentially a piano and organ keyboard.

 

I was impressed with the Nashville piano on one of the demos I heard earlier today. Sounded very rich.

[Stokely]

Interesting.

 

I have a MOdx7, which I really like except for the key action (though I've adjusted) and the "organ". Synths are just ok on it. The fact that it has an audio interface that allows for easy Ipad integration is IMO one of the best things Yamaha has been doing, I assume this one can do that too. Which reminds me, I need to check that new Hammond, if it can do that then the lack of poly synth is not such a deal breaker.

 

I have a MOXF8 as well (used by my son right now since his college's keyboard labs are closed) but if this action beats the GHS on that one I'm pretty interested (action of course being a subjective thing).

[konaboy]

btw, firmware update dropped for the yc today, v1.1, no changes to the sound engine but 2 new APs and 2 new EPs which will be immensely fun to try out!

 

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/yc/updates.html

[Dockeys]

but if this action beats the GHS on that one I'm pretty interested (action of course being a subjective thing).

 

Absolutely! I know a lot of people didn"t like the cp73 for playing acoustic, in fact Yamaha seem to market it as being an ideal action for Rhodes and Wurlys. I liked it for most of the other sounds though, acoustic piano included. The modx8 action is fine with me although if I haven"t played in in a while I feel like it takes 20-30 minutes to readjust to it unlike other keyboard where I can sit down and just play. Again, a minor inconvenience for me.

 

My main gripe with the CP73 it was it didn"t have a broader enough palette of sounds and I already had the modx8 so having both was just overkill. But as most people say here....try before you buy.

[Adan]

btw, firmware update dropped for the yc today, v1.1, no changes to the sound engine but 2 new APs and 2 new EPs which will be immensely fun to try out!

 

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/yc/updates.html

 

Must be getting prematurely senile, but I can't find instructions for updating OS. Can anyone help a bloke out?

[rogs]

 

Must be getting prematurely senile, but I can't find instructions for updating OS. Can anyone help a bloke out?

 

Download link to the zip folder here: https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/yc/downloads.html#product-tabs (near the bottom of the page).

 

Unzip the files and there is an English text file among them, detailing the update procedure.

[rogs]

The answer is, AFAIK, still unknown.

 

Even if the CP73 is a non-graded GHS, it would still be a true statement that it would be "similar to the feel of the weighted action found in MONTAGE8, Motif XF8/XS8, S90 XS/S70 XS," in the respect of feeling the same from top to bottom.

It would be true, but not sufficient to answer your question. I'm not saying that's what Phil response meant... I'm saying that, from the quote, you can't be sure either way.

 

BTW, I saw a video where someone trimmed all the weights of a GHS MODX8 to make all the keys the same (light). He found it to be an improvement. He called it a conversion to BHE, that's not true. But depending on the actual weight chosen, it's possible it was not far from a BHS... *if* in fact the BHS is a balanced (non-graded) version of the GHS.

 

There seems to be some doubt then .I can only comment on my own experiences..... The 'GHS' keybed on my P.105 feels nothing like the Motif XF8 or Montage 8 keybeds I've tried.

Those latter two certainly felt similar, but - as I say - very different from my GHS.

 

I would personally be amazed if the P105 and MotifXF8 keyboards have a common base.

 

To be fair I've not tried a CP73, so that may be very different from the Motif/Montage8 BHS keybed...... But not according to Clendeninn ......

[AnotherScott]

I know a lot of people didn"t like the cp73 for playing acoustic, in fact Yamaha seem to market it as being an ideal action for Rhodes and Wurlys.

Kind of similar to Crumar Seven in that respect.

 

There seems to be some doubt then .I can only comment on my own experiences..... The 'GHS' keybed on my P.105 feels nothing like the Motif XF8 or Montage 8 keybeds I've tried.

Those latter two certainly felt similar, but - as I say - very different from my GHS.

Yes, that's what I would expect.

 

To be fair I've not tried a CP73, so that may be very different from the Motif/Montage8 BHS keybed...... But not according to Clendeninn ......

The question may come down to the meaning of "different." Different in what respect? Board A can feel more like board X than board B does in one respect, but not in another.