More Whining About Piano Sound

[lowerhodes]

So I got an RD 700SX about a week ago and while there is a lot to like about it (SRX Rhodes expansion and a surprisingly tweakable and good sounding B3/Leslie) I am not crazy about the acoustic piano sound and for $2K+ I should be. Should'nt I? I may just have unrealistic expectations. I like and have experimented with the Superior Grand patch but have settled on it's variant, RD Grand, and it's OK except for a range of about 10 notes starting on F an octave and a half above middle C that is sort of muffled and phased sounding. Do any of you 700SX owners know what I'm talking about? I have corrected it a little by cutting the mid's which does work but adversely affects the rest of the board. So I compromise and make the problem a little better and the rest of the keyboard a little thin. But wait, there's more. I am now considering a Receptor with Synthology's piano software. I have only had a couple of brief interactions with the Receptor but was VERY impressed. I do, however, have a couple of reservations that are keeping me from returning the Roland right away. 1)I am old school and despite assurances from my dealer that he will make it painless and easy for me (I would likely only use it for piano and Rhodes sounds) I am fearful of endless techie drudgery. Seriously, beyond reading my e-mail and surfing the web I am a near computer illiterate. 2) I have heard that it is unreliable and/or impractical for live use. Any insights or advice from 700SX or Receptor users would be appreciated. Thanks.

[David Loving]

If you don't like the Roland, why not take it back and find something you like?

[HomeAmateur]

Well, Im just a home hobbiest so my thoughts may not mean much. However, I had the 700sx and really liked its piano (at first) but was never really impressed with 'the rest of the sound pallete'. I remember one of the 'other' pianos on the 700sx I think it was called '600Grand' or something like that. I used that one alot practicing older country songs that I like to play ie: Alabama etc etc.

 

Anyways back to the main piano, It sounded great at first then seemingly out of nowhere it seemed a handful of notes had this annoying 'ring' to them. I dont know if it was there all the time and I just didnt notice or if something went wrong.

 

Anyways, I was still in my 'grace' period, so I decided to switch to the S90ES. Ive had it several months now and am still happy with its piano. Although Im sure something even better will be along in no time. I think dollar for dollar its a better choice then the 700sx. MUCH more bang for your buck with the S90ES in my opinion.

 

As far as piano sound goes, GEM has the RP-X coming out any second now. This thing sounds worth a look-see.

[Jazz+]

OK, what speakers are you listening to the Superior Grand with? And are you listening to it at home, live on a gig, or both?

 

The Superior Grand is my favorite digital piano for playing live jazz. I prefer soloing on it more than the CP300 or the MP8.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

OK, what speakers are you listening to the Superior Grand with? And are you listening to it at home, live on a gig, or both?

 

The Superior Grand is my favorite digital piano for playing live jazz. I prefer soloing on it more than the CP300 or the MP8.

I'm surprised Jazz+. I thought you were really sold on the MP8.

[lowerhodes]

"OK, what speakers are you listening to the Superior Grand with? And are you listening to it at home, live on a gig, or both?"

 

I have not gigged it yet as I want to keep it nice if I need to return it. I have played it through a so-so pair of Sennheiser headphones, Tannoy Reveal active monitors, a pair of crappy Yamaha active monitirs and a pair of JBL Eon 10 G2's. I have dragged it all over the house (and garage) to different rooms posotioning and re-positioning speakers, tweaking, and tweaking some more.It sounds only marginally better than my S90 which I have A/B'd it with and I was expecting more. I am probably just expecting too much after some of the hype.

[lowerhodes]

Originally posted by daviel:"If you don't like the Roland, why not take it back and find something you like?"

 

I may end up doing that but I have already auditioned most of the usual suspects (Yamaha, Kawai, Nord Stage, other Roland models, Kurzweil).

[Jazz+]

If you think the Superb Grand sounds bad through Tannoy Reveal active monitors then I don't know what to say except maybe your expectations might be too high. What are you expecting to hear?

Are you a live jazz player that plays lots of single note lines when soloing? That's where the Superior Grand excells: The notes sustain without an overly pronounced attack (good legato), are dark in tone but have an added high frequency "overtone" or resonance; it's both bright and dark in a blended way without being too bright or too dark.

 

What digital piano pleases your ears?

 

And I don't know how you could improve on the SRX-12 Rhodes 1 installed in a RD-700SX.

[Jazz+]

Ivory or Akoustic Piano should sound better at home, but gigging the difference may me very little.

[Jazzwee]

Jazz+, for a moment there, you and others had as all convinced we had the worst keyboard and the MP8 was the best thing ever. Could you explain what happened here? It just seemed kind of sudden.

[lowerhodes]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

" If you think the Superb Grand sounds bad through Tannoy Reveal active monitors then I don't know what to say except maybe your expectations might be too high. What are you expecting to hear?

Are you a live jazz player that plays lots of single note lines when soloing? That's where the Superior Grand excells: The notes sustain without an overly pronounced attack (good legato), are dark in tone but have an added high frequency "overtone" or resonance; it's both bright and dark in a blended way without being too bright or too dark.

 

What digital piano pleases your ears?

 

And I don't know how you could improve on the SRX-12 Rhodes 1 installed in a RD-700SX."

 

I did not say anything disparaging about the SRX-12. Quite the contrary. As for the Superior Grand, the Tannoys were the best combination and I concur that single note passages sound better than chordal playing. Unfortunately, I play chords and they sound mushier (sorry, best term I can think of) than I think they should. There is also a distatsteful synthesizer sound that rears it's head when the damper pedal is held down to sustain a struck chord. That is common to all digital pianos I have played and I guess I had hoped it would not be that pronounced on this one. If someone can advise concerning a remedy for that I will be grateful. In answer to your question - not many digital pianos please my ears, hence, my search. I do like Synthology's Ivory though, which inspired the second part of my original post. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[TaurusT]

Use reverb.

[JezD]

I agree with Jazz+: It should sound good through the tannoys. Originally when i used my 700sx live it sounded pretty muddy, especially in mono (even using the superior mono patch), and needed some pretty heavy eq, which sorted the problem. In general I'm very happy with the board, and the piano sound gets a lot of use on my recordings (in the absence of a real grand)!

[ewall08530]

The RD Grand sound is so inferior to the Superb Grand that you're never going to be happy with it. You should take it back as soon as possible.

 

An aside... I just saw Henry Butler playing with Ivan Neville and the New Orleans Social club on Austin City Limits. That guy can play his ass off. He was getting a great sound out of a Roland RD 700SX on both ballads and hi energy playing. It's all so subjective. EW

[ProfD]

Originally posted by ewall08530:

It's all so subjective. EW

+1

 

That is why it is imperative for a keyboard player to sit down and caress a few boards prior to purchase.

 

One of them will speak to you louder than the others.

 

Reviews and recommendations are great for non-keyboardists (which controller should I buy for $500) and pointing in a certain direction (hopefully the music store ).

 

But, nothing is going to satisfy that finger, ear, brain connection other than the touchy feely.

 

lowerhodes, do you think it is a matter of spending more time with the RD? Something led you to it.

 

Good luck in either falling in love with it or getting an annulment.

[MikeT156]

Quote by TaurusT:

------------------------

"Use reverb".

------------------------

There's a ancient Chinese Proverb that says:

 

"You can't shine shit".

 

Seriously, a good sample should sound good without effects. It helps if you have a good sound system to play through, but a good sample should sound great through a decent set of headphones.

 

Mike T.

[Tony Bennett]

It must be subjective. I play the 600grand all of the time through a Carvin P.A. The EQ on both the P.A and the keyboard are set right in the middle. Personally Im tickled pink with the sound and Ive always had very nice acoustic pianos to play.

[7notemode]

"If someone can advise concerning a remedy for that I will be grateful. In answer to your question - not many digital pianos please my ears, hence, my search. I do like Synthology's Ivory though, which inspired the second part of my original post. Thanks for taking the time to respond."

 

This is from an earlier thread with link below.

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/18/t/020344.html#000011

 

Piano patch preferences are really personal, and tweaking a patch is an individual thing as well. I have a 700SX I play through KRK monitors at home. I had problems with the Superior Grand voicing as well. For what it is worth, this tweak works for me. Also if you get a weird effect with the pedal down, try turning off the multieffects control button. Of course in your system, these tweaks could make it sound worse but the point is, try tweaking it before giving up on it.

 

To tweak it, I had to eq a 4db dip at 600hz with a Q of 0.5. I also warmed it up with a 3 db bump centered at 100 hz, Q of 0.5. I also had to make the velocity curve more heavy to favour the lower velocity samples. That helps. It also sounds better with a warm pad as a second layer played at a very low level. Hope that helps.

 

btw, I just got Akoustic Piano (I already have Ivory). The Akoustic Steinway and Bechstein are my two favorites, followed by the Ivory Bose. There again, IMHO.

[resigned]

The upper midrange area that lowerhodes is talking about is THE most critical for my ear and was the make-or-break range for many digital pianos I tried. I don't know why this area is so difficult to get right but as a soloist I know that it's the area where I often play melodically so it's a crucial part of the instrument. Honestly, I dismissed the RD-700SX when I played it in the store even though many people love it because of the sound of the upper-midrange... along with a host of other top-rated pianos.

 

In the end I settled for a Kawai ES4 for stage use because I need something portable (versus the Kawai MP8 which I like even better but it's too heavy) and it was better IMHO than any Yamaha/Roland/Korg/Casio offering, but in the studio I use softsynth pianos because they sound better than any digital piano I've heard yet. My current fav is the Steinway sample in Colossus but I am also enjoying the Steinways in Reason Pianos.

 

I don't feel that softsynth pianos are what I want to use on stage just yet... the Receptor seems like a step in the right direction but I've had freinds who tried it and didn't like it. I prefer an instant-on digital piano in the 45-lb weight range for stage even if that means a slight compromise in the sound quality versus softsynth pianos or even better but heavier digitals like the MP8. You've just got to decide what you can live with for a few years... I believe that digital pianos are rapidly improving and better portable models will be coming.

[MikeT156]

Quote by The PRo:

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I don't feel that softsynth pianos are what I want to use on stage just yet...

--------------------------

 

Yep, I've read too many horrow stories of computer crashes in KB mag and musicians chat rooms to deal with a computer that integrates different mfg. products and is expected to run everything transparently, without problems. Hasn't happened yet, and it won't anytime soon.

 

For live use, it's still best to pick the hardware instrument you can live with, and be confident that you are going to be able to use it everytime you turn it on.

 

Mike T.

[Legatoboy]

Lowerhodes,

 

I had a RD700SX and I wanted to make that instrument work for me so bad. I like Rolands in general and am very comfortable with their interfaces and setup. The other sounds are pretty good in the SX, I still find the Rhodes alittle thin on the stock patches and un expressive. But in regards to the Piano sounds!

 

I played and tinkered for hours/days/weeks with the the Keyboard Scaling, the Offset, I set up Performances with multiple layers with a different piano on each layer at different volumn ,the EQ , all those effects , compress on and on. I finally gave up and bought a CP300 and I'm very happy!

 

I found on stage with a fairly loud band the Roland piano just caved in to freq. cancellation against the other instruments too. Even solo the RD700sx piano and the SRX boards both seem almost "hologram" like in their substance. very thin and hollow. I like to feel my notes.

 

They do have a gloss and under certian very specific acoustic environment I had some very successful gigs though, but they were the exception. In Ireland I heard a guy playing one very successfully and I think you were on to something with Henry Butler. If your playing style is of a certain type (as on the RD700sx Windows demo from the Roland Website) that piano can work for you! Denser voicings played legato with a more seemless playing style seems to mask the decay/sustain weakness/thiness that Roland still hasn't corrected IMO. I didn't work for me!

I will for some though. Your playing may be suited to a different piano, thats all!

lb

[DanS]

I haven't heard any of Rolands' specialized SRX cards for their pianos, but I find all the keys & modules I've owned & own from Roland nevr have strong pianos in them. I picked up an XV5050 (just sold it for an XV-3080)a few years back, and remember thinking that not much had changed in the 10 years since I'd bought my D70. Thin, no dynamics, a snooze.

I still use an S80 for live pianos, & Gigastudio stuff when recording.

[JeffLearman]

An aside... I just saw Henry Butler playing with Ivan Neville and the New Orleans Social club on Austin City Limits. That guy can play his ass off. He was getting a great sound out of a Roland RD 700SX on both ballads and hi energy playing. It's all so subjective. EW

Yeah, I saw that and I agree the sound was great, but before seeing the piano I knew it was either the RD700 ot RD700sx. (Folks say they're different and I believe you, but not having played them side by side, or either one extensively, they seem pretty much the same to me. Rather easily identified in a mix. As is the Yamaha P80, though on a much lower level.)

 

Lowerhodes, I think you may be expecting too much rom a ROMpler -- either that or you'd simply prefer a different digital. IMHO, all the ROMplers have one deficiency or another, and expecting them to play like the ideal piano under all circumstances is unrealistic.

 

They all sound better than a miked piano on a real loud stage. None of them sound as good as the best gigabyte sampled pianos. They all kick ass totally, compared with what we had to put up with just a few years ago. And they'll get better as memory prices go down and the art of sampling improves.

 

Maybe there's something not quite right with yours, causing that annoying issue you mentioned. But my suspicion is, that's just the piano, and if it's annoying you already, you'd better find a replacement.

 

Concerning software pianos, the usual comments about reliability are for the home-PC based system. The biggest threat there is that, after setting it up and it working properly, you use it for some other purpose or put it on the net and catch a virus. Well below that, if you take proper care, is the likelihood of general hardware or software failure. For that reason and others, the Receptor isn't as vulnerable.

 

Even with receptor, I'd want to use a keyboard that has a built-in piano sound that I can at least tolerate, just in case. And frankly, a good controller costs nearly as much as a good controller with digital piano built in, if not the greatest digital piano at least something to save a gig like the Casio.

[Bridog6996]

The question I'm surprised nobody asked is why you bought it if you were not satisfied with the sound. Did you not try it out before purchasing it?

[marino]

Just as a general consideration, I still have to play a digital or soft piano which I would consider acceptable for solo work. For playing with a rhythm section, yeah - you can fool most people; in jazz, less than in other um, louder styles.

 

Recently, I've downloaded all available demos of soft pianos, transferred them on CD, and listened to them thru a number of sound systems. Well, none of them sounds like a piano to me. None! Not Ivory, not Akoustic, not PianoTeq or the other modeled thing. None of their different samples or variations on a main sound can fool me into thinking it's the real thing.

I can't point my finger on a single cause: Dynamics have a big role, but also the interaction beween notes, the effect of the pedal, the imperfections and non-repeatable little changes that a real piano has, the reaction of the soundboard to the various playing situations... there are just too many variables. Or rather, it wouldn't be practical for manufacturers to invest into all the R&D to reproduce all those variables.

 

Among the current digitals, MP8 is still my favorite... but I wish that digital piano makers would refrain from calling their patches "Superb Grand", "Real Bosendorfer", or "Heavenly Acoustic". They just ain't.

[SilverDragonSoun]

Originally posted by Bridog6996:

The question I'm surprised nobody asked is why you bought it if you were not satisfied with the sound. Did you not try it out before purchasing it?

Agreed. Did you listen though headphones, like it and then bring it home and have a different experience through your sound system?

[K K]

Originally posted by marino:

I wish that digital piano makers would refrain from calling their patches "Superb Grand", "Real Bosendorfer", or "Heavenly Acoustic".

Hmmm... How about Perfect Piano?

[TaurusT]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

Quote by TaurusT:

------------------------

"Use reverb".

------------------------

There's a ancient Chinese Proverb that says:

 

"You can't shine shit".

 

Seriously, a good sample should sound good without effects. It helps if you have a good sound system to play through, but a good sample should sound great through a decent set of headphones.

 

Mike T.

True, though if you're stuck with the instrument, you do whatever you can to make it better. I've lived on a JV-1080 stockpiano sound for years, tweaked it like mad. Then I went over to a highend Yamaha CLP.

Right now I'm the happy owner of 700sx myself, and I love it. It sounds perfect in my productions. The X-Ultimate is actually my favorite. RD Grand is a lot weaker, good for Hanon practice.

 

Anyway, all subjective, and based on where you use the instrument for. Best of all, it's hardware.

[marino]

Originally posted by Cydonia:

Originally posted by marino:

I wish that digital piano makers would refrain from calling their patches "Superb Grand", "Real Bosendorfer", or "Heavenly Acoustic".

Hmmm... How about Perfect Piano?

Cydonia - you're treacherous!

[soundscape]

Originally posted by marino:

Well, none of them sounds like a piano to me. None! Not Ivory, not Akoustic, not PianoTeq or the other modeled thing. None of their different samples or variations on a main sound can fool me into thinking it's the real thing.

I can't point my finger on a single cause: Dynamics have a big role, but also the interaction beween notes, the effect of the pedal, the imperfections and non-repeatable little changes that a real piano has, the reaction of the soundboard to the various playing situations... there are just too many variables. Or rather, it wouldn't be practical for manufacturers to invest into all the R&D to reproduce all those variables.

I actually believe that this obsession with getting voices to sound "real" is the wrong way to go in a way. It's better to have a patch that doesn't sound real but sounds good than one with 127 sample layers which are just impossible to get all matched and playing together well and the end result is more "real" but has "rough edges." Perhaps it matters more with some styles of music, however.

 

I guess that unless every last atom is modeled, the result is never going to be 100% "real".

 

Originally posted by marino:

Among the current digitals, MP8 is still my favorite... but I wish that digital piano makers would refrain from calling their patches "Superb Grand", "Real Bosendorfer", or "Heavenly Acoustic". They just ain't.

Don't expect marketing to stop using hyperbole any time soon.