More Jobs Lost

[Bobsk8]

It was in the local Atlanta newspaper today. The Atlanta Ballet which had employed about 40+ musicians in their orchestra will go to all recorded music this season. It gets harder and harder to make a living in music.

[ProfD]

Yep, with the advances in technology, music is slowly becoming like wallpaper There is still $ to be made in the business but it is quickly becoming in specialized areas. Yet, I remain optimistic that we'll travel in the proverbial circle. Just as the 80s didn't mess us up too bad, this too shall pass

[linwood]

Well, I'm boycotting. No Ballet's for me this season. The only one I've ever wanted to see was Gate of Dreams and it's never been done here.

[SilverDragonSoun]

Its kinda of scary to think about. But I do agree and hope it will pass.

[Dave Horne]

Let's hear from all the guys who gave me a hard time when I would attack those who use sequencers on jobs to replace live musicians. Let's hear from those DJs and 'mashers' who replace live musicians. Let's hear from those Power Singles. All you guys who defended your way of life by using any means to use fewer live musicians, speak up now.

 

What's the difference between a sequencer and prerecorded music? The end result is the same - less jobs for live musicians.

 

I, for one, will write a letter of protest to the

Atlanta Ballet ... and I suggest those who believe in live music do the same.

[Dave Horne]

I called and left a voice mail message and also sent an e-mail to their Artistic Director, John McFall (that's his real name, no kidding).

 

jmcfall@atlantaballet.com

[Prague]

That's going to limit their repetoire in the extreme. Many cues between the conductor and dancers are a necessity in ballet.

 

I can see it being done for dumbass rap, but for ballet it just isn't practical. IF they are going to do this, the organization will fold in one season.

[Markyboard]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Let's hear from all the guys who gave me a hard time when I would attack those who use sequencers on jobs to replace live musicians.

Hi.

 

Glad that's done.

[Moon Zero Two]

How about people who use digital pianos - we're putting piano manufacturers and tuners out of business!

[daBowsa]

You know, I've thought the use of live musicians has actually been on the rise, this decade.

 

More and more when you turn on the TV there's a live band. Even rappers seem to tour with a full band these days. Plus all the reality music shows have a quality groups backing up the stars of the show.

 

I do find it odd that a ballet would drop the orchestra. I bet they'll revert to a 3 or 4 keyboard players like most shows on Broadway do these days, instead of hiring a french horn player and an oboist.

[Dave Horne]

oops

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by RonL:

How about people who use digital pianos - we're putting piano manufacturers and tuners out of business!

More than 90% of all of my jobs are on acoustic piano. I only use a digital piano when there is no acoustic. (I also practice on a GranTouch piano - I've met you half way. )

 

Feel better? (This retort written in real time without quantizing.)

 

I guess the next logical step would be to replace the dancers in the Atlanta Ballet with halograms. This says a lot about priorities in the US. I can not ever see that happening here.

[Dave Horne]

oops

[Prague]

Originally posted by RonL:

How about people who use digital pianos - we're putting piano manufacturers and tuners out of business!

The automobile put the horse and buggy out of business, but personal transportation remained. Piano manufacturers remain, but most piano tuners are replaced by electronics technicians and engineers. Neither affected piano players.

 

Progress can have a micro-economic impact, but when it has a macro-economic impact, there are problems.

[BP3]

This seems a good sign that the musicians unions have lost their muscle. At least the group insurance rates still are available.

[linwood]

Let's hear from all the guys who gave me a hard time when I would attack those who use sequencers on jobs to replace live musicians. Let's hear from those DJs and 'mashers' who replace live musicians. Let's hear from those Power Singles. All you guys who defended your way of life by using any means to use fewer live musicians, speak up now.

Ok...about five years ago, I wrote and seq the music for the company here in Vegas for the ads about their new season. It would have cost too much to get the local symphony to do it and get someone to write it. so..they hired me. It was cool. The spot went through several different ballets in 30 secs. I had tempo changes and mood/lighting things to consider while writing/seq. it. It was a blast to work on. Too bad about Atlanta, but better to cut musicians than dancers, I guess.

[nursers]

Originally posted by Markyboard:

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Let's hear from all the guys who gave me a hard time when I would attack those who use sequencers on jobs to replace live musicians.

Hi.

 

Glad that's done.

 

For me in my very limited music career, I've GOT jobs nearly every time BECAUSE I can use the technology as well as play to some level.

[Bridog6996]

And I bet next season the Atlanta ballet will go under entirely.

 

I just don't see how this is a possible option. As Prague said, in ballet the orchestra accompanies the dancers. There are cues involved. Forcing the dancers to the will of a fixed recording will seriously diminish the quality of the performance.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I side with Dave Horne about the use of electronics to replace musicians. As a musician, it sucks. On the other hand, I don't see that there is any alternative. This was no matter of preference, but of neccessity. These days, most orchestra and ballet companies are in the red financially. At best, maybe they break even. Only very few pull in a profit. In the case of Atlanta Ballet, they came to the point where the choice had to be made: shut down entirely or explore new options in order to keep it going (although at the expense of quality). At any rate, employing 40+ musicians simply wasn't possible in their current financial situation. Which is better: getting rid of just the musicians, or shutting down the entire company? The answer to that question stumps me, although I'm sure the Atlanta Ballet dancers and administrators would surely argue the latter.

 

As for the general use of sequencing in performance, power singles, etc., I'm similarly "on the fence." While I find it to be musically lame, the use of sequencing is, in many cases, a matter of neccessity, not preference. I should think any musician would rather play with a full band if it were financially possible for him/her to do so.

 

I pose this hypothetical situation for Dave Horne's consideration. Let's say that this guitar player named Bill approached a small club/restaurant about performing. They agree to let him perform, but will not pay him an amount that is sufficient for Bill to hire a band. Bill performs solo, but quickly finds that by simulating a band through the use of sequencing, the customers enjoy it more and tip him better. So Bill now has a choice. One, he can just walk away from the gig because he can't afford to hire a real band, in which case the club will just go back to their usual pre-recorded music. Or two, he can go on performing as a power single, and be able to pay his rent this month. It seems to me that one working musician is better than none at all. Don't you think?

 

Of course this isn't ideal, but more and more it's becoming reality.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Is anybody whining that the piano players in the movie theaters were replaced by Dolby Surround and THX systems?

[Prague]

Originally posted by MidLifeCrisis:

Is anybody whining that the piano players in the movie theaters were replaced by Dolby Surround and THX systems?

Personally, I wasn't around. That was due to the advent of "talkies".

 

If I were given the choice of seeing a silent-era film with a live piano player or a pre-recorded soundtrack, I would not hesitate and opt for the piano player. I saw "Wings", from 1928 or so, done with a live piano player (she did it during her early career). She had no sheet music and watched the film at the same time. That was a performance, nt a soundtrack. Much, much better experience.

 

Most of those movies aren't in circulation, however.

[marino]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Let's hear from all the guys who gave me a hard time when I would attack those who use sequencers on jobs to replace live musicians. Let's hear from those DJs and 'mashers' who replace live musicians. Let's hear from those Power Singles. All you guys who defended your way of life by using any means to use fewer live musicians, speak up now.

OK.

 

Dave - I don't think most of the musicians who "gave you an hard time", me included, would approve of the use of recorded music to replace live musicians, unless it's economically impossible to do otherwise. What I would personally fight, was your generalization that every time one uses a sequencer or arpeggiator, he'd be less a musician than someone who plays those part by hand. My point was that sequencer and arpeggiators have their place in music, if used for what they do best (ever tried to *play* one of those arpeggiated/repetitive dance music riffs in 64th notes? ). An arpeggiator, BTW, it's too limited a device to replace live playing; it shines in robotic drones and the like.

 

About sequencing classical music, I've done it a few times, and it's a hell of a challenge. You have to *be* a classical musician to understand the phrasing, the timing and the dynamics. It's a lot of very specialized work. And guess what - it was a job.

 

Frankly, I think that the use of pre-recorded music instead of a classical orchestra has little to do with the previous discussions about sequencers and arpeggiators.

[nursers]

Star Wars with a live piano player could be really cool

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Bobsk8:

It was in the local Atlanta newspaper today. The Atlanta Ballet which had employed about 40+ musicians in their orchestra will go to all recorded music this season. It gets harder and harder to make a living in music.

There's nothing cheesier than Ballet to recorded music. Stay away!

 

Here in Portland they say t hey now use live orchestras but I was so appalled when I went to one performance and discovered they were using taped music I have not been back.

[nursers]

It is indeed a ridiculous proposition - can you imagine going to a major musical (like Rent, Les Miserables etc) with taped music? You can't create the same atmosphere for starters.

[Dave Horne]

Marino, a quick question - how many times this year in live performance have you used either a sequencer or an arpeggiator?

 

The solution for the Atlanta Ballet is very simple - more tax dollars supporting the arts. (I'm a US citizen by the way and pay US taxes.) If the US foreign policy would change and say, invade 50% less countries than originally proposed, that money could be used for the arts. (I'm also retired US military. )

 

In the Netherlands, the prospect of a ballet performance using canned music would be debated on national TV.

 

We pay 19% VAT (over here) on most goods; the personal income tax starts at 38%. In the US personal income tax starts at 28% and VAT varies from state to state but is probably around 7% on average. Some things just have to be subsidized - libraries, the arts, public schools, public transportation, health care, etc. This adds to the overall higher standard of living.

 

Every small village over here (or almost every small village) has some kind of musical group that is subsidized by the local government. This has been going on for centuries. My mother-in-law lives in a village of less than 4,000. They have a drum and bugle corps that rehearses once a week. It is subsidized by the local government.

 

We're settling for less and less. We shouldn't. Get your priorities straight. [rant over]

[Pat Azzarello]

My objection here is that they've gone completely over and it's affecting the overall experience.

 

I would much rather play with a kickin' live band than with a sequence. If my choice was to play with marginal or bad musicians and I could make it better by having a sequencer, or if the economics dictated that the only way to make it entertaining to the customer was to use a sequencer or backing track, I'd probably do it.

 

BTW - Beyond some percussion parts, the number of times I've played a gig with backing tracks (sequences or recorded) I can count on one hand (except in 1985 when the cover band I was in had one song that played an ostinato behind us - Duran Duran's "Save a Prayer" - and that lasted 3 weeks), but... I do it all the time in my home studio AND there are situations where I may need to do it live in the future. It's something I hope I'll always be able to balance, but not everyone has that choice.

 

As for government subsidies, I don't know whether I'd opt for subsidizing music education before performance, but then again it's hard to inspire kids to learn to play unless they have the opportunity to experience live music by accomplished musicians.

 

One more thing - Arguably notation programs are putting copyists out of business and I don't hear a lot of musicians arguing that bit of technological advancement, although many musicians added to their income for years as copyists so they could continue in the music business. There's an art that's getting lost as well.

 

Everything in moderation.

[marino]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Marino, a quick question - how many times this year in live performance have you used either a sequencer or an arpeggiator?

I'm not sure I understand the spirit of this question, but I'll give you a straight answer: This year I haven't used sequencers onstage, because I'm doing mostly acoustic piano jobs. But I've certainly used them in the past. A few real life examples:

- There's a marimba part to be played in just one piece. Do you hire a percussionist to play just that one piece? More likely, you accurately sequence the marimba with some good sample, send a click to the drummer, and it's done.

- In some tunes, the keyboard player simply doesn't have enough fingers and hands to play all the parts. Do you hire a second keyboardist to just play just two or three tunes? Same as above.

- I did some shows with dancers recently. The music was partly written, partly improvised. Just two musicians onstage, me and a percussionist. I used sequencers and arpeggiators occasionally, to achieve an hypnotic feeling and to have some ground on which to improvise. Well, the interaction between sequences, percussions and keyboard improvisations was just wonderful, and it would be very difficult to achieve it in any other way.

The solution for the Atlanta Ballet is very simple - more tax dollars supporting the arts. (I'm a US citizen by the way and pay US taxes.) If the US foreign policy would change and say, invade 50% less countries than originally proposed, that money could be used for the arts. (I'm also retired US military. )

I agree completely. But again, it has little to do with the previous discussions.

In the Netherlands, the prospect of a ballet performance using canned music would be debated on national TV.

 

We pay 19% VAT (over here) on most goods; the personal income tax starts at 38%. In the US personal income tax starts at 28% and VAT varies from state to state but is probably around 7% on average. Some things just have to be subsidized - libraries, the arts, public schools, public transportation, health care, etc. This adds to the overall higher standard of living.

 

Every small village over here (or almost every small village) has some kind of musical group that is subsidized by the local government. This has been going on for centuries. My mother-in-law lives in a village of less than 4,000. They have a drum and bugle corps that rehearses once a week. It is subsidized by the local government.

 

We're settling for less and less. We shouldn't. Get your priorities straight. [rant over]

Thanks for the picture of the music situation in the Netherlands. In Italy, it's not so rosy. The state support for the arts used to be decent 20 years ago, but the recent governements reduced it to less and less, and it's presently almost erased. This is a social and cultural disaster. To partially save the situation, there are many initiatives at a local and private level, and the participation of people to live events seems to be always healthy.

About the so-called 'Power singles', I always understood what you meant. The use of standard MIDI files by an army of recycled singers, bassist and guitar players in order to book solo jobs is a plague. It really cheapens the music that's played. But *it's not the fault of the sequencers*. As you said, it's very similar to play pre-recorded backing tracks, so it would make no difference to play those solo jobs with an audio CD. Would you blame the invention of the CD for that?

 

Other considerations:

 

- I've occasionally heard excellent solo performers with sequenced or pre-recorded backing tracks. That's not frequent, but it happens; they simply had done a wonderful job of preparing those backing tracks. The music came out wery well, and not cheapened out a bit.

- Sometimes, in clubs you see those sad characters; real pianists with real pianos, banging away the same old songs for the umpteenth time, demotivated and half-asleep, with a fake smile on their face... they're not making more 'real' music than power singles, in my view.

 

In short, my point is that we shouldn't confuse different issues. Sequencers aren't the devil; it depends how they are used, exactly like any other musical tool. I will always agree to prefer the interaction of live musicians. But if I ever see another thread title on the line of "Real men don't use arpeggiators", count on me to fight that too.

 

Carlo

[orangefunk]

+100000000 to Marino.

[Dave Horne]

The use of a sequencer to replace one musician for 10 minutes a night is somehow less serious than using a CD to replace 40 musicians for two hours? (I'll lump these two situations in one basket - you may not agree, but that's fine with me.)

 

Before we know it, the use of canned music will be used for even more ballet performances ... and the general public will accept this as normal. (It's already begun - musicians are feeding on themselves ... and defending their actions.)

 

At any rate, I included the e-mail address of the Artistic Director (for some reason, that title now seems very funny) of the Atlanta Ballet and I encourage you to write your letters of protest ... even those of you who justify the use of sequencers on jobs.

[ProfD]

In order for musicians to survive, they have to become better businesspeople. Rather than wait on gigs (live, studio, theater, etc.), they have to create a demand for what they do.

 

Technology is not the culprit. It is how we adapt to and use it. Just as the workplace requires an upgrade in skill set over time, so to does musicianship.

 

Regardless of the type, style or area of focus within the music, self-promotion is the key to survival. We have to start renting places to perform, advertise, market & promote music.

 

If beating the pavement is not your strong suit, there are folks are very effective at it. Surround yourself with them. Turn your band, solo gig or whatever into a business.

 

No longer can we sit back and wait on promoters, club owners and/or the general public. It is more work but maybe the only way we are going to thrive in what appears to be a world of diminishing returns when it comes to the arts.