FORUM MEETING: The "no-sell" zone

[Tedly Nightshade]

OK, two things.

 

This forum rocks! As is! Let's not change a THING.

 

Also, "INDUSTRY BUZZ" is an extremely disengenuous and misleading title for anything that is started by a manufacturer or manufacturers. I'll go ahead and say it's plain dishonest. If there's an industry buzz, we'll be hearing about it here from people other than the manufacturer- that's what makes it a buzz. And, it could be about something other than products. Players. Albums.

 

I also find "INDUSTRY NEWS" just as patently dishonest and misleading. MANUFACTURER PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENTS would be honest, but just as unwelcome. There is a lot of news in this industry, not just new products being announced. An expose on misleading advertising practices, or just on the sheer quanitity of advertising that we have come to accept as "normal" for music mags and hangouts would be a good article for a genuine Industry News outlet.

 

It's completely DISHONEST to pass off manufacturer announcements as "INDUSTRY BUZZ", which would be a genuine buzz only if it was turning up in the forums from posters other than manufacturers and reps. And "INDUSTRY NEWS" is just as dishonest. It's plain that calling it what it is, is just not a sufficient draw, hence the desire to call it by some dishonest title that passes off the contents as something other than hype from reps and manufacturers.

 

I'm a bit shocked that so many would consider such a title for such a thing to be anything other than a swindle, but then again when I read (rarely) the glossy mags are 90% gear sales and hype, I guess that's what most of us take for granted. Personally I threw out my only EQ magazine yesterday after cutting out the picture of Lee Flier and putting it on my wall. The shrill, unrelenting, and usually disingenuous onslaught of ads and hype is just not something I endure voluntarily, at least without protest, and then I get out as fast as I can.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Tedly Nightshade:

I also find "INDUSTRY NEWS" just as patently dishonest and misleading. MANUFACTURER PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENTS would be honest, but just as unwelcome. There is a lot of news in this industry, not just new products being announced.

Good point, Ted.

 

I'm gonna go with the "Manufacturer Product Announcement" thread title...I think that'll be more than sufficient to keep those away who are offended by this sort of thing.

 

I figure that keeping it all in one place will definitely be the way to go. If one finds such a subject distasteful, don't go into the thread and you won't be subjected to it. Proper labelling will insure that there's no mistaking it for what it is...

 

Also, I have a feeling that the voice of the people will keep the thread clean.

 

Believe me, I'm gonna be watching this pretty closely. If it gets out of hand or bums a bunch of you out, it'll get bagged.

 

dB

[Tedly Nightshade]

Just for the record, the management in this joint ROCKS!

[r33k]

Fully agreed!

[MikeT156]

Reply to Llarion:

 

As Dave Bryce notes, having a manufacturer thread for those that don't have time to "keep up" would just be opening a can of worms. I've been "Behind" for over 8 years and have gotten a better handle on what's out there by checking manufacturer web sites, subscribing to Keyboard again, and reading this and other forums in their present forms.

 

I say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

Mike T.

[Pim]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

What about an "Industry News" thread with a sticky like the others at the top of the forum?

 

dB

Make it so, Mr. Bryce!

[Immo]

Originally posted by Tedly Nightshade:

Also, "INDUSTRY BUZZ" is an extremely disengenuous and misleading title for anything that is started by a manufacturer or manufacturers. I'll go ahead and say it's plain dishonest. If there's an industry buzz, we'll be hearing about it here from people other than the manufacturer- that's what makes it a buzz.

Perhaps we should call it "MANUFACTURER ATTEMPT AT STARTING INDUSTRY BUZZ." Maybe that is too brutally honest. Oh wait it already has a title?

[Steve LeBlanc]

I can't see any reason to change the forum.

 

The big threads ("garage sale", "Let's Hear It", etc.) make sense, adding another one (or two) probably wouldn't hurt flow any

[keyoctave]

There are plenty of 'just only' forums around that have Reps helping people get the most out of that particular electronic instrument, device or program (and they are VERY helpful!). Those forums also keep one up to date on upgrades, new stuff, etc. from that particular manufacturer. What is unique about this forum is that it is wide open to subjects on music, playing, recording, and use of gear. I have always found the advice to be most helpful, and most importantly, free of hype. If something new comes out, it will more than likely show up here with an unbiased view. If a Rep wants to chime in after identifying themselves then fine.

A good example is Mike Martin. On many occasions he has set the record straight on issues with Kurzweil and now Yamaha. He does this in a professional way and does not post here to 'sell' anything.

 

So...I would vote to keep it as is.

[nursers]

I too like the statis quo, but support idea of Industry News thread - will help me to be even lazier in getting ideas on mag articles to write

[Erlic]

I would have to agree with the majority about leaving the forum the way it is. You've done a marvelous job in keeping it in line up to now, and as one person stated, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

The resources available here by the vast spectrum of members, In my opinion, is enough to warrant any type of "new" information, and then some.

 

Too many times I've seen a question arise about "this to widget" or "that new widget" or "where can I get..." and someone, if not more than one member, always has the information needed to suffice.

 

Perhaps experimenting with one thread is the way to go, if for nothing else to see how well it works or doesn't work.

 

If you wanted my vote, it would be to leave the forum the way it is. I know I've gathered a lot of information from the various members from time to time, and have been extremely pleased with the information given.

[I I mjrn]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Originally posted by Llarion:

I think that the manufacturer's reps should each be allowed a thread for their line ("The Roland Thread", "The Adam Thread", etc.) so if I want to know what is (or has been) going on with a line, be it promotion sale, service recall, what have you, I'd go there.

Thanks for the suggestion, Phil - but I think we should stay away from that, because I can see where that could easily get out of hand in a few areas.

 

I think we'll just stick to the Industry News thread for now and see how it goes...

 

dB

While I agree that individual threads for manufacturers would be too profusive, I wonder how "crosstalk" about different subjects would be handled in a single thread?

Is this to be open only to manufacturers/marketers or would regular mambers be able to comment on or place announcements of their own regarding policies/trends they became aware of?

How could it be controlled to keep it from becoming a free advertising spot (which is something that's already used, properly, to defray MusicPlayer operational costs) & keep it in the realm of useful advisements?

[Squids]

Hey, I can understand where some of you are coming from. You like to have a place where you can talk to each other as friends and if you don't want to hear from manufacturers or anyone talking about their involvement in the MI industry and you've become used to it after so many years then, hey, I don't blame you!

 

But, I can't help but think that the fact that this is the only forum under the Keyboard Magazine section that there's a lot missing in what one could expect from Keyboard magazine's own forum. So, if you guys are saying that this is only "sort of" their forum but they're not really involved and it is only "mainly" about keyboards but isn't supposed to relate to the subject matter of the magazine (kind of a good sports forum though ) then I guess what is really needed is another Keyboard forum under the Keyboard Magazine Forum section that does. That way you can have this place exactly how you enjoy it. But, that there can also be a place that is more like Keyboard magazine reader's community and gives people a chance to hear about all sorts of things from different perspectives including manufacturers of the keyboardist's "tools" and pro musicians who use them (afterall, that is what 90% of the pages of keyboard tend to be about).

 

I mean, EQ has several forums under its header so perhaps Keyboard should too. I am going to talk to the magazine about this. I know a lot of other people would like this too (namely thousands of their readers). Although for all we know, with their big plans to make changes with the magazine in the next couple of months they have all sorts of plans for the web that we're just not aware of yet. Still, if there is going to be any involvement from the magazine and a forum that more directly relates to it then hearing from people who want that can't hurt.

 

That's how I feel about it being one who has always been a fan of the magazine and has every issue since 1979 still (you never know when an ancient giveaway for a clear Gleeman will cheer you up!).

 

Oh, I did want to make an announcement about a group buy deal we're having right now but the manufacturer's announcement thread has no actual announcements from manufacturers and has already been sabatoged by people who probably DON'T want to hear from manufacturers. That makes it kind of useless but if no one else cares to do anything about it being that uninviting then it really doesn't matter I guess. Oh well.

 

Thanks if you were open minded to what I have to say about it even though it is different.

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Squids:

Oh, I did want to make an announcement about a group buy deal we're having right now but the manufacturer's announcement thread has no actual announcements from manufacturers and has already been sabatoged by people who probably DON'T want to hear from manufacturers. That makes it kind of useless but if no one else cares to do anything about it being that uninviting then it really doesn't matter I guess. Oh well.

 

Thanks if you were open minded to what I have to say about it even though it is different.

Dave, I made a couple of jokes in that thread, and I apologized for it when I saw that the joking there was frustrating people.

 

Just to be clear though, I in no way meant to sabotage the thread; I only meant to join in the fun. As I mentioned on page two of this thread, I think it's counterproductive to speculate or insinuate on what others are thinking or feeling. There's just no way to know what's in someone else's head or heart.

 

Why no give the thread a chance? What's the worst that could happen? I invite you to post there and make your group buy announcement. Just tell 'em Geoff sent you.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[MikeT156]

Dave, I don't think being sarcastic about how the users on this forum want it to be run is doing you or your company any good right now. The whole issue started when a MI rep tried direct selling to one of the forum members. Dave Bryce intervened and then opened up a discussion to forum members as to making changes to the original forum rules....no selling to forum members.

 

Mike Martin from Yamaha doesn't hard sell anyone, he contributes information and then butts out. I think he makes a good example of how to represent a product line by identifying yourself and doing so in good taste. I don't want to hear bias opinions from MI reps posing as forum members. I'm just looking for opinions of other members and trying to learn something. We don't want to be hustled.

 

Mike T.

[cnegrad]

FWIW, I have no involvement in this particular thread at all, but I'm always interested in hearing about Group Buys. So how about announcing it already?

[cnegrad]

FWIW, I have no involvement in this particular thread at all, but I'm always interested in hearing about Group Buys. So how about announcing it already?

[Philip OKeefe]

Wow, interesting discussion - thanks to Jeff Klopmeyer for letting me know about it.

 

I have never had a problem with companies or reps coming into a thread and answering a end user's questions about their gear. I completely support that. However, I do not condone, nor would I tolerate companies coming to the PS forum and starting new threads and spamming us with new product announcements or whatever. Okay, product announcements are now acceptable in the new Hey GEAR COMPANIES... check this out! thread, but other than that, they're a no-no.

 

Moderators around here are a pretty decent bunch of folks, if I do say so myself. No one pays us for what we do here, and we do it for the love, and in an effort to help other people; sharing our knowledge and experience while discussing something we enjoy. I can't speak for the other moderators, but it's MY name on the PS forum, and so I'm going to taylor the forum in a way that I can feel comfortable with. We're given a pretty free hand by Musicplayer in running our forums as we see fit... which probably means they ask people who they respect and feel are going to do a good job if they want to moderate a forum, and when they say yes, they get out of their way and let them do it.

 

I certainly try to take the opinions and desires of the PS forum members into account when setting forum policy, as I know dB does. But ultimately, what goes down on the individual forums - what is acceptable and what is not, falls to the individual moderators.

 

When dB asked me if he could post about the "name the new ADAM speakers" contest over on the PS forum, I was happy to agree to it. First of all, he had the common courtesy to ASK ME in advance. Secondly, I felt that it was something the people who visit my forum would be interested in, and it would give them the opportunity for a chance to win a nice new pair of speakers. David Frangioni used to do fairly regular give-aways over on the Studio Tech forum. I have no idea if he was purchasing the stuff he was giving away or if it was provided to him by distributers and / or manufacturers - you'd have to ask him. But if a company wanted to give away some gear on the PS forum, or had a contest where gear was being given away and wanted to let the PS forum know about it, I'm sure a lot of people on the PS forum would be interested in hearing about it. But I would expect for something like that to go through me first. To do otherwise would simply open the forum up to unlimited spamming, and I'm not going to tolerate that.

 

Anyway, that's my take on it. I support dB's rules. He's a balanced and fair guy, and while we all participate here, this forum has his name on it, and he makes the rules. IMO, It is a sign of his personal integrity that he abides by the same rules that he holds everyone else accountable to.

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

Mike Martin from Yamaha doesn't hard sell anyone, he contributes information and then butts out. I think he makes a good example of how to represent a product line by identifying yourself and doing so in good taste. I don't want to hear bias opinions from MI reps posing as forum members. I'm just looking for opinions of other members and trying to learn something. We don't want to be hustled.

 

Mike T.

Mike Martin posts on the PS forum from time to time, and I agree that he is an EXCELLENT example of someone who works for a MI manufacturer and how they should behave on online forums. He'll answer end-user questions when he can, and there is no question about who he works for - it's right there in his sig line. But he doesn't go around starting threads like "Hey, look at our new XYZ widget! Order now! Only $699!".

 

I have a lot of respect for Mike, I appreciate his input and willingness to try to help people, and I agree that he's a great example of what a good forum member company rep should be.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Squids:

I know a lot of other people would like this too (namely thousands of their readers).

That's really cool that you know what thousands of Keyboard magazine's readers want in a forum.

 

That way you can have this place exactly how you enjoy it. But, that there can also be a place that is more like Keyboard magazine reader's community

Wow - I guess that's a surprise for those who like this forum as a "no-sell" zone that they're not representative of Keyboard magazine's reader's community...

 

and gives people a chance to hear about all sorts of things from different perspectives including manufacturers of the keyboardist's "tools" and pro musicians who use them (afterall, that is what 90% of the pages of keyboard tend to be about).

...and, after all, we never discuss any of that stuff here.

 

Oh, I did want to make an announcement about a group buy deal we're having right now but the manufacturer's announcement thread has no actual announcements from manufacturers and has already been sabatoged by people who probably DON'T want to hear from manufacturers. That makes it kind of useless

So, let me see if I've got this straight...

 

Not only do you want to be able to attempt to directly solicit business from the people on this forum, but when given a thread where it's okay to do that you object if people have a bit of fun there? My goodness - you really do have a very specific concept of how you want this forum to operate, don't you?

 

Quick question - what exactly is preventing you from putting up your group buy post and taking that thread in the direction that you want it to go?

 

dB

[Philip OKeefe]

BTW, for the record, not ONE person - in public (on the PS forum) or in private (via a phone call, PM or email) complained to me in any way whatsoever about my decision to allow the ADAM Audio "name that speaker contest" thread on the PS forum.

[MikeT156]

I like the idea of contest "giveaways" on a specific thread from time to time. Its a win/win situation. I would also say that if a vendor identifies himself as such, vendor participation in a thread like that is less of a problem. The consensus seems to be we don't need yet another mfg. selling tool to clutter up this forum.

 

Mike T.

[Chuck Surack]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

I like the idea of contest "giveaways" on a specific thread from time to time..

Mike T.

Hey Mike,

 

I'm with you...I'll do product "giveaways" if everyone says nice stuff about Sweetwater!

 

Chuck Surack

Sweetwater Sound

[MikeT156]

Thanks Chuck. I ALWAYS say nice things about Sweetwater. Robert Dorian is my sales rep and I've always had a great experience with Sweetwater. Sweetwater is the best in the industry. Now, can I have a free Poly Evolver?

 

Cheers,

 

Mike T.

[Chuck Surack]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

Thanks Chuck. I ALWAYS say nice things about Sweetwater. Robert Dorian is my sales rep and I've always had a great experience with Sweetwater. Sweetwater is the best in the industry. Now, can I have a free Poly Evolver?

 

Cheers,

 

Mike T.

I'd be willing to do an online Poly Evolver contest and give one away..but then David Bryce AND myself would be accused of spamming!

 

Chuck

[Markyboard]

BTW, for the record, not ONE person - in public (on the PS forum) or in private (via a phone call, PM or email) complained to me in any way whatsoever about my decision to allow the ADAM Audio "name that speaker contest" thread on the PS forum.

 

You did??? That's DISPICABLE(w/spit) - I vehemently object!!!

 

BTW Did I win?

[Dan South]

I'm easy.

 

 

That said, I'm not sure that I want to open the floodgates where every other thread is by someone pitching a product.

 

I like the idea of having a single thread for this purpose and then giving that thread a fairly loose rein (as long as Chip From Pfizer doesn't start posting.)

 

[Squids]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Originally posted by Squids:

I know a lot of other people would like this too (namely thousands of their readers).

from Dave Bryce: That's really cool that you know what thousands of Keyboard magazine's readers want in a forum.

It only stands to reason that if there was a forum that was more directly related to the magazine subject matter but added interactivity with the writers, artists or manufacturers that are filled within the pages of the magazine it would be of interest to many of the readers. I am a reader and as a reader I personally would be interested let alone being able to talk from a manufacturer's perspective. Not only that, but that's kind of what I expected to see when I first came here years ago and have felt like this was missing.

 

From Squids: That way you can have this place exactly how you enjoy it. But, that there can also be a place that is more like Keyboard magazine reader's community

From Dave Bryce: Wow - I guess that's a surprise for those who like this forum as a "no-sell" zone that they're not representative of Keyboard magazine's reader's community...

Sorry, I meant Keyboard magazine community in general (including every aspect of what is in the magazine), not just the readers. Ironically, from what I've read here, a lot of people around here don't even like the magazine or read it much if at all. But, that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of others that do. However, I found it interesting that one poster said that he loves how this place is different from the magazine because he said the magazine has a large % filled with "hype". As I said, I can fully understand that POV. But, the fact that people still DO buy the magazine FOR the "hype" leads me to think that the people that appeals to might like a forum that is like the magazine but interactive. Maybe it's not the same people that like it here but what comes first? The forum or the people that join it? I think it could be good for the magazine to do it.

 

and gives people a chance to hear about all sorts of things from different perspectives including manufacturers of the keyboardist's "tools" and pro musicians who use them (afterall, that is what 90% of the pages of keyboard tend to be about).

from Dave Bryce: ...and, after all, we never discuss any of that stuff here.

A lot of what I am saying is going off of what you are saying. When I said I thought a Keyboard Magazine Forum should be more in line with the direction of the magazine, this was your response:

 

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

The problem with that logic is that Keyboard mag isn't really concerned about the content of this forum being in line with "what the magazine is all about", nor have they ever been...

 

....We get no direction from them at all; in fact, other than their sponsorship of this forum, they really pretty much have nothing to do with it.

 

If the nice folks at Keyboard magazine were interested in the content of this forum being in line with the direction of the magazine , I imagine they'd be the first to say so.

 

dB[/QB]

So, then you could say that I am for them being involved in a Keyboard Magazine forum whether it is this one or a new one. I am interested in this as much as a reader myself and as a keyboardist as I would be as a manufacturer. For instance, I would LOVE to hear what the Yamaha guy has to say about the next cool keyboard they're coming out with! Personally, I look forward to the magazine issues each month to learn about new gear. To be able to talk to the person who created a product is a luxury I would thoroughly enjoy. Do you have to wait for someone to post about a Continuum Fingerboard or would it be okay for Hakken to come on here and tell everyone about it? I'd be okay with it.

 

Oh, I did want to make an announcement about a group buy deal we're having right now but the manufacturer's announcement thread has no actual announcements from manufacturers and has already been sabatoged by people who probably DON'T want to hear from manufacturers. That makes it kind of useless

From Dave Bryce:

Quick question - what exactly is preventing you from putting up your group buy post and taking that thread in the direction that you want it to go?

 

dB[/QB]

I said in my post what was preventing me from mentioning it. I didn't see any manufacturers posting in there and it looked like it was just a joke so I didn't think it was a very good context for it. It felt like "Come on manufacturers! Show us what you got!" and if you posted your message you'd likely just get a mocking post about something for "three easy payments of $19.95" back in your face. Maybe if the rule was that only manufacturers could post on that thread and only people with "for real" questions to those manufacturers then it could work. But that depends on the moderator really.

[MikeT156]

Dave:

 

I complained to the people posting on that new thread about taking it more serious. Dave Bryce said the same thing, people weren't taking it seriously. I think you should post something on that thread, lets get it rolling and see what develops. Enough arguing, lets get on with it.

 

Mike T.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Squids:

I would LOVE to hear what the Yamaha guy has to say about the next cool keyboard they're coming out with!

That's what press releases are for...

 

There are plenty of places to learn about gear that's coming out (web sites, magazines, etc.). If it's interesting to this community, it almost always ends up being a topic of discussion here anyway. The "Yamaha guy" can even participate in such discussions (which they do, BTW). The majority of the community in this forum just doesn't want to be pitched to when they're here.

 

This is an end user forum, not a manufacturer's forum. We welcome participation from manufacturers, because it adds value to the discussions to be able to hear their points of view; but, as a rule, we are not interested in being pitched to while we are here.

 

The exception to that rule has always been instances where end-users have asked manufacturers direct questions about their products - in that instance, manufacturers are encouraged to respond, and always have been.

 

Do you have to wait for someone to post about a Continuum Fingerboard or would it be okay for Hakken to come on here and tell everyone about it? I'd be okay with it.

Unfortunately, I'm not - unless someone with no vested interest starts the thread...then I'm fine with it, just like I was when Magpel started the thread about your last group buy ....or had you forgotten about that?

 

If a manufacturer comes here and starts a thread about their product, it is most probably with the intention of promoting sales, not just sharing info about cool gear. That is simply not acceptable on this forum.

 

If a manufacturer or their representative wants to hang out and answer questions about their equipment that's not only fine, it's encouraged. I'm sorry that you have such a difficult time seeing the distinction between doing that and starting a thread to talk about your own product...but then again, you have a vested interest in trying to blur the lines, don't you?

 

If a manufacturer really wants to directly pitch the community on their products, they can do it the same way I do with the Dave Smith stuff - by buying an ad banner, which also helps support the existence of the forums, BTW...

 

I found it interesting that one poster said that he loves how this place is different from the magazine because he said the magazine has a large % filled with "hype". As I said, I can fully understand that POV. But, the fact that people still DO buy the magazine FOR the "hype" leads me to think that the people that appeals to might like a forum that is like the magazine but interactive. Maybe it's not the same people that like it here but what comes first? The forum or the people that join it? I think it could be good for the magazine to do it.

As previously mentioned, this is not Keyboard magazine, nor is it meant to be representative of the content or direction of Keyboard magazine, nor was it ever. I am not an employee of Keyboard magazine, nor do I have any forum-related contact or receive any direction from them regarding the forum, nor have I ever.

 

When Craig Anderton asked me to moderate this forum, he asked me to make a nice place where keyboard and synth players could come and hang out, and he left the rest of the direction of the forum up to me. He didn't ask me to make a community in the image of Keyboard magazine. That's not the idea behind this forum, nor has it ever been.

 

If that's not what you expected from this forum, I'm sorry; however, I see no reason to change that. There's a pretty cool bunch of people who seem comfortable here the way it is.

 

If Keyboard magazine perceives that it is in their interest to start another forum that's more in line with the direction of the magazine, I'm sure that they will. This, however, is not that forum.

 

I was one of the programmers of the Motif rack and ES and they also hired my sound company to program the main patch on the triple strike piano for the S90. Maybe some people want to hear from someone like me about that!

So what's to prevent you (or anyone else) from talking about that? Not me, that's for sure. I love it when that sort of thing gets posted. You know why that's acceptable? Because you're not trying to sell anything.

 

You're pulling stuff up from all over the place to try and hide the real reason that you're making all this noise: that you want to be able to directly solicit sales from members of this forum. Now, we've even tried creating a thread to accommodate you, but that doesn't work for you either.

 

Bottom line - as long as my name is on this forum and the people who post here tell me that they don't want to be pitched to when they're here, then I will respect their wishes.

 

dB