FORUM MEETING: The "no-sell" zone

[Squids]

Originally posted by Phait:

Hi, names Justin and I work for Lint Co. Inc®. Here at Lint Co. Inc. I manufacture THE FINEST navel / belly button lint in the world, ever. It comes straight from my own belly, and is not synthetically enhanced or modified. You won't find High Fructose Corn Syrup here folks! You may be wondering the uses of lint would be, well listen up!

 

- collect enough and acoustically sweeten your studio

- collect enough and reupholster your furniture

- collect enough and construct, from our own plans - a lint pillow for your keyboard, for those long nights!

- get ambitious and weave that long yearned baby blanket

 

Folks, the possibilities are endless! I charge in 5 pound increments, $20 per 5 pounds. Order a bag or a box today!

 

Sincerely,

Justin Kohli

Lint Co. Inc.

sales@lintco-inc.com

1.900.555.LINT

bellybuttonlint.com would be the more appropriate place for that! lol.

 

I want to just clarify a point I was making about "people should say whatever it is they feel compelled to share with Keyboard magazine's on line community". Obviously there has to be consideration of what the community might be interested in. The nature of this forum is more conversational and hopefully the poster is offering the best he has that would contribute to the forum. If the best he has is the on topic equivalent of this belly button lint post then... I guess if no one appreciates it then it would fade away.

 

I think we'd all agree that if someone repeated the same thread that no one responded to or bumped it repeatedly then it would be a case where we'd beg the moderator to stop it. There's tolerance defined by people's interest and what subject matter Keyboard magazine who provides this forum would like it to be about. (sorry, but I doubt that includes bellybutton stuff ).

[Squids]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Originally posted by Squids:

Ideally Keyboard magazine's forum should represent what the magazine is all about and that includes the hobbyist's side, the semi pro and pro musician's side, the editor/writer's side, the retailer's side and the manufacturer's side on the general topics of "the Keyboardist's tools for making music". So, surely there is room for all of the best of those things here!

The problem with that logic is that Keyboard mag isn't really concerned about the content of this forum being in line with "what the magazine is all about", nor have they ever been. They seem to like it just fine the way it is. We get no direction from them at all; in fact, other than their sponsorship of this forum, they really pretty much have nothing to do with it.

 

If the nice folks at Keyboard magazine were interested in the content of this forum being in line with the direction of the magazine, I imagine they'd be the first to say so.

 

dB

Wow, that's a rather bold thing to say. You think they don't read the forum? The fact that they sponsor the forum is a rather significant detail, as it is how this forum even exists. They provide it for all of us to use as the KEYBOARD CORNER of the musicplayer line of publications on line. So I wouldn't assume that they don't care even if they haven't always been active with regard to the exact content of the forum and how it is being run. Maybe they've been very busy with the magazine itself and trust that the forum they pay for will respectfully represent the magazine's subject matter and be aligned with their intentions in offering it in the first place. I mean, logically it should right? Otherwise why is it called Keyboard Corner and why are they sponsoring it?

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Squids:

Wow, that's a rather bold thing to say. You think they don't read the forum?

I didn't say they don't read it, Dave. I said that they're not concerned with whether the content of this forum is in line with what the magazine is about; and, if they were interested, I imagine they'd say so.

 

Regardless of whether you think that's a bold thing to say, it's true.

 

The fact that they sponsor the forum is a rather significant detail, as it is how this forum even exists.

Is it? Are you privy to the details of Keyboard's sponsorship? How do you know it's not in name only?

 

They provide it for all of us to use as the KEYBOARD CORNER of the musicplayer line of publications on line.

Really? Do you have any concrete knowledge on which to base this statement, or are you just assuming this is the case?

 

So I wouldn't assume that they don't care even if they haven't always been active with regard to the exact content of the forum and how it is being run.

Actually, they've never "been active with regard to the exact content of the forum".

 

To the best of my knowledge (and I've been here since it started), they've never had anything to do with the content of this forum, nor have they expressed interest to me in doing so.

 

Maybe they've been very busy with the magazine itself and trust that the forum they pay for will respectfully represent the magazine's subject matter and be aligned with their intentions in offering it in the first place. I mean, logically it should right?

As far as I know, Keyboard doesn''t really pay for the forum themselves. I don't think it's part of their budget at all. I believe UEM pays for this forum, just like every other forum on this site.

 

Otherwise why is it called Keyboard Corner?

Because it's (mainly) about keyboards, and that's what Craig Anderton and I decided to name it when we started it.

 

If the truth must be told, "Keyboard Corner" was the name of E. U. Wurlitzer's old keyboard department in the early '80s. That's where I got the name from.

 

dB

[steadyb]

Yeah.

[Squids]

It does say this:

 

Keyboard Magazine Forum

The Keyboard Corner

 

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that this is YOUR forum that is just supposed to be "mainly" about keyboards and it's NOT supposed to be the on line community of Keyboard magazine, yet UEM pays for it (Keyboard magazine's publishing group) and it is under the heading "Keyboard Magazine Forum"? That's surprising.

 

If that's the case then the name of the forum and forum section of the site would then be giving a false impression. Because I'd have a whole different interest in it depending on if it is supposed to be perceived as the Keyboard Magazine Forum or if it is Bryce's forum. Which is it SUPPOSED to be exactly?

[steadyb]

[konaboy]

PLease, no spam from companies whatsoever, no matter how relevant! It's easier to ban it completely than try and define where to draw the line.

 

I suspect that any offers or deals posted here would be for the US market and thus completely uninteresting for me (a European) and anybody else outside your country. I don't want to see the interesting threads lost in the clutter.

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by steadyb:

Why the long face? Seems like a valid question to me.

[Geoff Grace]

Perhaps I can have a try at this.

 

My understanding is that Keyboard magazine sponsors this forum with a "laissez-faire" approach and that Dave Bryce moderates this forum with a "will of the majority" approach. The process of what we're doing here is determining what the will of the majority is.

 

Let's see if we can avoid muddying the water with speculation or insinuation. If this thread is to serve as a reference point for our preferences, then I think we'd do well to stick to that.

 

Thanks.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Tusker]

Here's my two cents as requested. It's a great forum. So any tweaks should be minor.

 

Personally, I would prefer to see no manufacturer created gear threads. Or maybe a single manufacturer's announcement thread, like the musicians have. I could live with more spam, but I would prefer not to.

 

Every system is game-able of course. But the system as currently defined has attracted diverse types of musicians, created a collaborative atmosphere, and boasts one of the highest S/N ratios amongst musician forums. That means a lot to me.

 

Jerry

[cnegrad]

IMHO it would be great to have just one single area where Group Buys could be posted, but nothing further beyond that.

[capnzoot]

The beauty of this forum, as opposed to the majority of "other" forums is in the fact that MI/AV professionals, reps, marketing weasels, product specialists ad infinitum can co-exist, comment, assist and otherwise be mutually useful in a community setting, without hardcore pitching. The people on here who do that for a living appreciate a place where that's not the point.

 

Aside from OT issues this is one of the only places where a lot of people who are competitors in the "real" world can just be people, interact with one another, end users, has beens, wannabes whatever without the BS. There's always going to be some pitching cloaked in a corporate response, but most of the ones I've seen are posted to resolve an issue, which is where they need to stay. For anyone to blatantly use this forum as a classified ad would be to demean the quality and intregrity of the forum as an open community.

 

No manufacturer spam, please. The "group buy" thing could be relegated to a single thread, much the same as "introductions", so if it gets bumped, there it is, but it is contained.

 

My .02 only.

[MikeT156]

I like things the way they are now. We DON'T need unidentified MI reps soliciting posters here. Others, who do IDENTIFY themselves, like Dave from GEM, and start their own thread for advice on their product, are fine with me. Initially, I took Dave to be soliciting business, and posted a reply to the GEM thread stating that. However, many of the folks that were participating in the thread disagreed with me and said they were trying to get advice and help on the GEM products. After I read the entire thread, I apologized to Dave and the posters and butted out.

 

When I first joined this Forum, I was "encouraging" posters to check out the dealer I work with, giving prices on particular instruments and such, and Dave Bryce told me that was not cool, and politely asked me to stop. The rule is, its ok to mention what you paid for something AFTER you bought it. Sometimes I tell some posters to check out my dealer of choice, but I don't put selling prices anymore, just suggest they call them and ask for their best price. Conversely, I've gotten "leads" on where to buy a piece of gear at a lower price too. That's a benefit. However, blantant selling by an unidentified MI rep isn't the same as getting a lead from another end user. Let's keep it that way.

 

Mike T.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Squids:

I'd have a whole different interest in it depending on if it is supposed to be perceived as the Keyboard Magazine Forum or if it is Bryce's forum. Which is it SUPPOSED to be exactly?

It's both, actually, because both our names are on it; however, my attitude has always been to treat this forum as if it belongs to the community, and to base how it's run on the feedback and direction that I have gotten from the community.

 

That seems to have worked fairly well so far.

 

As you can see from this thread, the majority of people who have offered their opinion on this subject have said that they do not want to be sold to on this forum. I suggest that if you want to be able to start posts in this forum to sell your products without offending the community that you address your comments to them, not to me. If the majority of the community says that they want for you to be able to do that, then so be it. Based on this thread, however, that does not appear to be the case.

 

Additionally, if Keyboard magazine does decide that they want manufacturers to be able to use this forum as a vehicle to directly pitch and sell their products to forum members, I imagine that we'll hear that from them, not from you.

 

It does appear that there is some interest in there being a dedicated industry news thread where manufacturers and their representatives can post freely. If enough people speak up in support of that option, then we'll do that.

 

dB

[Roger Hooper]

The way the forum is set up now is good. Forum members have a pretty good handle on finding out the skinny on all the new gear. I thought I knew a lot as a keyboard salesman; now, I think not; the folks here are brilliant! Manufacturers' threads would clutter up the landscape. I think the reps and other MI employees that participate in the forum (in its current state) do it in the right way, are extremely helpful with their products when needed, and contribute fun and interesting opinions on the topics at large.

[I I mjrn]

Though a kibbitzer/commenter more than an active long-term member, I'd like to add my thoughts.

I'm with the apparent majority in maintaining any sales/marketing material---however well intended---separate from ordinary discussion.

I'd like to point out that, beyond what others have said in this area, there's a very real potential for abuse through what's called "stealth marketing", whereby discussions are turned (& sometimes even initiated) by those with direct sales connections to certain products.

This is a real phenomenon & while it can enter into any debate about any product, the more clearly any marketing is delineated from discussions that contain advice the better we'll all be, I think.

Anyone honestly just trying to hip others to some hot deal should not only understand the reasons for such a policy but actually appreciate that such "news" would be posted in an area where it could be easily found.

[r33k]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Right now it is forum policy that no one can use this board for purposes of sales or marketing without the permission of the forum members. That includes MI manufacturers, store sales guys, and individuals looking to sell gear.

This is a good and reasonable policy and should be maintained. I'm advertised to so much on a daily basis that sometimes it gets overwhelming. I don't want to read ads here or be marketed to at all. This is a user forum - by users and for users. If you're not posting here as a user, you don't belong.

 

As many of you know, I work for two different MI companies. I have tried to hold myself to this rule as well, and have prided myself in never starting any solicitous threads about either of my companies. However, it has been suggested to me that my post in which I informed members of this forum that I had started a thread in another forum (with that moderator's permission) about the ADAM naming contest was, in fact, solicitous of me. I disagree with that assessment, but if it can be perceived that this behavior was in violation of the "no-sell" rule, then I apologize.

Dave, you have, on rare occasion, whether intentionally or not, used the forum for marketing purposes. However, because we all know you to be a stand-up guy and because you have accumulated an enormous amount of good-will from us over the years, your minor indescretions are happily forgiven.

 

Slightly more troubling are forum members who only seem to pop up when a product they represent is being discussed. This kind of thing is impossible to police, and in fact we may not wish to eliminate it, but it does come dangerously close to overt marketing.

 

In any case, I am not in favor of changing about the way the site is run. We don't need an "industry news" sitcky thread, in my opinion, and the forum works fine just as it is.

 

My $0.02 only.

[Tom Fiala]

I think we are bombarded with industry publicity materials from many sources, as it is.

 

Personally, I vote against changing this forum in a significant way - I like the emphasis on the opinion of us, the end-users, the musicians, not the manufacturers' PR department.

 

"Status Quo, Captain Bryce"

 

Just my 2 cents

[felix.]

I don't think sales pitches belong here. And any time that anything significant is announced, seems like it ends up here anyway because there are so many people here who are on the ball.

 

So if it all stays the way it is, I don't think we're missing out on anything. The only ones who seem to be complaining are the ones who want to advertise, not the ones to which the advertising will be directed.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Michael Erwin:

Dave, you have, on rare occasion, whether intentionally or not, used the forum for marketing purposes. However, because we all know you to be a stand-up guy and because you have accumulated an enormous amount of good-will from us over the years, your minor indescretions are happily forgiven.

Are you serious? I had to grovel to get him to talk about ADAM speakers. Didn't work. I tried hitting him over the head. Didn't work. Phil O'Keefe graciously stepped in his behalf. And I learned a lot from his review! There are some products that aren't in widespread use, and don't receive equal representation. That's when I get a little frustrated. However, persistence does pays off.

Slightly more troubling are forum members who only seem to pop up when a product they represent is being discussed.

...and most troubling are forum members who disappear when a product they represent turns out to be a source of grief. I hear ya, Jeebus.

[Postman]

Originally posted by Michael Erwin:

Dave, you have, on rare occasion, whether intentionally or not, used the forum for marketing purposes.

That's news to me. I've been on this forum for a long time (close to five years now). People have asked DB about his job promoting ADAM mostly out of curiosity and the desire to see him do well, but I don't remember him ever engaging in sales or marketing on this forum.

Slightly more troubling are forum members who only seem to pop up when a product they represent is being discussed. This kind of thing is impossible to police, and in fact we may not wish to eliminate it, but it does come dangerously close to overt marketing.

My impression is that they pop up to do technical support or to answer equipment capability questions. Mike Martin is a good example. He's checked in as both a Kurzweil and now Yamaha rep and provided forumites with valuable information. He's not a regular as far as participation in other threads is concerned, but I can't ever remember him pushing a product. I'd hate to see him and people like him excluded.

 

Keyboard Corner is not the place for press releases. It's not a place that provides free advertising. If the product is worthwhile we'll hear about it elsewhere. If we're curious about it, we'll ask. At that point, manufacturer's reps can answer, and I expect them to be enthusiastic about their product line.

 

My suggestions for limits on manufacturer's reps:

 

* Prohibit product introduction announcements.

 

* Prohibit the mention of pricing in any way including price reductions, special offers, target market, market position, etc.

 

* Prohibit links or other references to web pages containing any of the above.

 

* Prohibit the posting of messages that have been posted elsewhere in whole or in part. This would effectively ban press releases and canned product literature in this forum.

[steadyb]

Originally posted by Michael Erwin:

Dave, you have, on rare occasion, whether intentionally or not, used the forum for marketing purposes.

Not.

[Squids]

From what I am hearing there are certain conditions where people would allow, not mind or even appreciate some degree of info exchanged here from manufacturers or retailers, like having a group buy announcement thread. Most people would like to know about a group buy deal on something that relates to the theme of the forum. The reason is because it is time sensitive and sometimes spontaneous. Plus, multiple people benefit that are participating in it if more people know about it.

 

That could be one way to organize it and keep it from getting out of hand. I, for one, like the garage sale thread on here for that reason. Maybe there can be a dealer annoucement thread too or ANY thread that puts a certain category of information that the majority doesn't want flooding every thread subject but respect that some here might STILL be interested in that type of information.

 

Just a thought.

[MikeT156]

No way Dave Bryce has done ANY kind of selling on this site. Other than announcing his affiliation with DSI, he never started a thread about any of the manuf. he reps. He's occasionally beamed in with the correct info when there's a question about something he knows the answer too, and that's it. For me it was great to know he joined DSI, and I PM him when I want to know something. Dave doesn't feel comfortable with anything that would be in conflict with him being the moderator. Period.

 

Mike T.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Squids:

Maybe there can be a dealer annoucement thread too or ANY thread that puts a certain category of information that the majority doesn't want flooding every thread subject but respect that some here might STILL be interested in that type of information.

Unfortunately, no one really seems to want a dealer thread of this nature (including Chuck!), and I'm inclined to concur - I think that would open up way too ugly a can of worms.

 

As previously mentioned, I'm open to trying an industry news thread for manufacturers to post to see how well it works. I'm always in favor of giving something questionable the benefit of the doubt before dismissing it.

 

I'll put one up later today, and we'll see how well it works. If people like it, we'll keep it.

 

I think it'll be up to the members of the forum to decide within that thread if a manufacturer has gone too far, and/or if the thread gets out of control. I appreciate any and all input in that area.

 

Thanks to all for taking the time to share your input!

 

dB

[Llarion]

As someone who is not a frequent purchaser of gear, and as such, falls behind the knowledge curve, I'd recommend the following if it were to open up:

 

The end users have their Garage Sale thread. I think that the manufacturer's reps should each be allowed a thread for their line ("The Roland Thread", "The Adam Thread", etc.) so if I want to know what is (or has been) going on with a line, be it promotion sale, service recall, what have you, I'd go there. Each would be strictly enforced as to staying on topic. (No other vendors slamming products in a vendor thread). It also has to have an obvious name, no teaser thread names like "Have you tried this?"

 

Each thread would have a life of its own, and it would be incumbent on the rep to keep the thread alive, subject to a rule about no random bouncing of the thread every 4 hours just to keep it afloat, by penalty of locking it till it hits page 10, 3 strikes and it's deleted.

 

But that way, if you're not interested in the vendor or product, skip the thread. And if you are, you don't have to wade through ambiguous thread names to find the topic you want.

 

I know that if I ever DO buy another synth, I'll want to know about the ones I'm considering, and the input from the mfr reps here has universally been stellar to date. This method would keep it organized and monitorable.

[Roger Hooper]

Your welcome, Dave!

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by steadyb:

Originally posted by Michael Erwin:

Dave, you have, on rare occasion, whether intentionally or not, used the forum for marketing purposes.

Not.

Maybe Dave hasn't.

 

But you certainly have, haven't you...

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by Michael Erwin:

Slightly more troubling are forum members who only seem to pop up when a product they represent is being discussed.

Yep.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Llarion:

I think that the manufacturer's reps should each be allowed a thread for their line ("The Roland Thread", "The Adam Thread", etc.) so if I want to know what is (or has been) going on with a line, be it promotion sale, service recall, what have you, I'd go there.

Thanks for the suggestion, Phil - but I think we should stay away from that, because I can see where that could easily get out of hand in a few areas.

 

I think we'll just stick to the Industry News thread for now and see how it goes...

 

dB