Do you purchase flagship models?

[Delaware Dave]

It just occurred to me that over the past 35 years my digital collection of instruments have always been the flagship (or former flagship) models in a manufacturer's line of synths. Ensoniq, Generalmusic, Kurzweil, i always ended up with the flagship model.  The only exception was the M-Audio Code purchase, in that case i was looking for a lightweight 61 key controller to trigger VB3-ii and that had the particular features i needed and was only about $200.

 

I think the reason is that when I make a purchase I know I'm locking myself into that keyboard for a decade (or more). Im not a frequent buyer of kb's so when I do purchase I'm looking for somethng that will be a relevant keyboard for a while.  Not sure how others think when they are making a purchase decision.

[brenner13]

I’m too cheap to buy the top of the line…new anyway. Always looking for the ‘deal’ when in a buying mode.

I guess my very first purchase in 1986 was a Roland JX10…that was pretty flagshippy, but fell into near oblivion with the release of all of those digital and linear synths not long after. In 1988 I got a Roland S-550 for graduation…top of the line for a minute or two until the 7** series came along. So much for the non-obsolescence of open architecture they sold us on.

Nabbed a great deal on a Yamaha EX5 right after the Motif been released. Used Fantom X7 landed at my feet as a friend was wanting the next rendition. Pre-ordered a Roland VR09 just a couple of weeks after the announcement. At such a great price, it felt like other clonewheels were superior,  yet I’m still gigging that thing for all its worth to this day over a decade later and loving it. The polarizing DeepMind12 was kind of ‘flagulent’ (🤭) for that company at the time, but was such an easy price compared to the other analogue poly’s at the time, again it felt like perhaps it was missing something. It has some limitations with the raw engine, but it really is a premium board. I drooled over the Montage, but could not swing the cash for that, but nabbed a demo MODX7 shortly after Gear Fest. Love the engines, keybed kind of sucks. Casually looking for a used Montage. Might stumble across a good deal with the new kid in town about to land.

 

Yeah, I’m cheap.

[Dockeys]

Weight is always a primary issue for me which always rules out the Montage 8’s the Fantom 88, the Kronos 88 etc. I always get the trickle down version. I did have the Kronos 73 for a couple of years which I loved but ultimately it was too heavy. Getting the “lite” versions usually means I sell it in a couple of years as the compromise turns out to be a deal breaker. Usually action. Going to sit down this summer and have a think about selling most of my stuff and maybe going iPad or MacBook with a controller. 

[RABid]

I started out with a MiniMoog and Arp Omni II. Later on, Rhodes Chroma and Memory Moog. Bought a couple cheapies to fill in the gaps such as the Sequential Six Track, and was not happy at all. Most recently I purchased a Fantom 7 as my forever board and a MODX+6 for something lite to carry to church. Wow, what a difference in the keys. When ever they release the 61 key version of the Montage M with aftertouch I will be saving up to replace the MODX. Oh, and when I finally got a Hydrasynth I got the deluxe. 

[David Emm]

I learned to buy upscale for the sake of the better builds. Its no guarantee, but it often helps. Even second-hand, everything is generally more solid. I bought a Roland XP-30 as a store return and it was a serious winner, an XP-50 minus the sequencer.

 

Keyboard feel is the dirty little secret we can't avoid. With stores fading fast, its becoming a shot in the dark. All the more reason to go high and then run lesser gear from your best controller. Eventually, usually after a couple of flops, you learn who makes your idea of the best choice.

[CEB]

The action is the thing I actually play and generally the best actions are installed in flagship boards so …..

 

But this isn’t always so true.  I love my Kronos but the RH3 in the Kronos I still find to be meh.  

[Baldwin Funster]

I haven't bought a flag in a long time. Or a ship either.

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

11 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

The only exception was the M-Audio Code purchase and was only about $200.

 

Exception?

 

At that price I'd deam that M Audio must be its flagship model. Hee hee. 

[Keepitsimple]

I used to but not anymore due to prices where i live.

 

Plus the evolution of quality 88 key actions along with VST libraries affected how i shop as well. 

 

Had a Triton then a Motif then a Kronos.

 

Been shopping for the past 6 months for a quality digital/stage piano with a great action and good piano sounds. Tried many brands. 

 

Settled for a Roland (no it's not the RD-2000). 

 

Can't say what it is because it's classified (aka not released yet). I will have it by mid-summer

 

[Dockeys]

Not released yet you say….🤔

[Keepitsimple]

7 minutes ago, Dockeys said:

Not released yet you say….🤔

That is correct

[ElmerJFudd]

I haven’t for financial reasons, carry weight, and not needing production/composition features for performance.  These days, when complex setups are required MainStage or similar is thr easiest solution.   I do however look for mid-tier boards with good build quality and better actions.  

[J.F.N.]

I just got back into this game after 20ish years off the stage. when I decided to get back again I grabbed a PC3 (76 key), I paid 800€ for it and that is about what you find them for, a tad less if you're lucky, these used to be a flagship for quite some time and imho still definitely kind of ish is. Looking to get a Forte 7 very soon, weeks, months... to not have to lug the PC3 back and forth to the rehearsal as I do play and compose at home too. 

 

I think for me this is as flagship as it gets, I am not overly familiar with the Kronos, Motif and Montage, and Fantom machines, the reason I decided to go with the PC3 was that VAST is to my knowledge based on earlier experiences in my life, a very versatile and powerful platform which feels in a lot of ways timeless. If I would have any regrets it would be that I didn't go with the PC3k instead, though I doubt I would spend a lot of time importing samples and fiddle around with that in any larger scale in reality...

 

The Nord platform never appealed to me, I am sure it's an incredible platform for many of you working guys out there, no doubt, but I think the depth of the VAST was the dealbreaker here, and the fact that I do have my Hammond in the HX3, in saying that, I will grab a rotary sim (vent, burn etc.) and try how that works with the KB3 for convenience when needed, as the Leslie sim in the PC3 do feel a bit limited in sound quality due to age.

 

[RABid]

1 hour ago, J.F.N. said:

The Nord platform never appealed to me, I am sure it's an incredible platform for many of you working guys out there,

I had a Stage 2 76 for a while but organ and piano from the same keyed just does not work for me. Piano needs hammer action and organ needs a quick synth action. I can play strings, pads, synths on either, but piano and organ each have their own place and it is not the same place. Not for me.

[Stokely]

Nord Stage 3 is pretty much tailor-made for me.  I don't need the advance parts of a workstation, do limited splits and layers, and dislike touch screens.

Generally, I much prefer flagship models.  That said, I've never bought one new--always used, sometimes at 1/3 the original new price a few years down the road.  That all probably changes when I pick up a new Fantom EX, once I sell a keyboard that's up on Gear Exchange.  (The 0% fees applied to SW account has got me, so it'll be from SW).

I've found I don't like the ultra-light weight, plastic build, wall warts, and key actions on keyboards like my Modx7.  It's an incredible machine but I just am not inspired to play it, if that makes me a shallow person I can live with that     Granted, there is a weight limit for me, it's somewhere north of 40 pounds.  Size limit too, I've always said that bulk and chassis design is as important as weight as far as ease of shlep.

[YashN]

   Being more studio-bound than live gig oriented and synth-oriented than classic keys and acoustic-oriented, getting a flagship board is less important to me. Case in point: in Kurzweil V.A.S.T. land, the flagship would be a K2700. The synthesis platform though, is the same for V.A.S.T. on even a PC4-7, so I can do with that one.

 

   And actually, I have been working on a K2500 with KDFX for a good while now. There are still a really large number of architectures that aren't being fully explored on this platform, especially with Live Mode (even minus KDFX but even more so with).

 

  I agree with the poster above mentioning PC3 vs PC3K: here, if you aren't going to be using a lot of external samples, the PC3x for instance, is a rather powerful synth in itself. Bear in mind that nothing prevents you from creating your own 'samples' out of the internal ROM Samples, then your own Keymaps, and from there, mangle those to no end with longer existing V.A.S.T. chains of of your own creation (Cascade + Dynamic V.A.S.T.). This is also possible from the K2000 itself thanks to how the ROM Samples  are built and addressed in V.A.S.T. This isn't leveraged enough IMO.

 

   If your focus is heavy on Pure DSP synthesis, then a PC3 line is already quite capable. The main difference in the V.A.S.T. section is the newer lines include a DX7-compatible engine that can be also used with V.A.S.T. processing. However, you could already build your own FM patches or more from the K2000's V.A.S.T. DSP Blocks. In fact, we were doing this already when the K2000 launched. This is another thing that is not used enough. Of course, the newer lines increase polyphony and have more KDFX/KSP8 DSP units to use and that is not to be underestimated.

 

   I estimate (based on work done myself) there is probably less than 10% of the full capabilities of the original K2000 that is being exploited even today. Capabilities increased massively with Live Mode and Vocoder Mode, born on the K2500, then increased further when KDFX was made available on the K2500 as an add-on. There was a further massive increase when Triple Mode was released on the K2600 which included KDFX by default. A lot of what makes the K2500 and K2600 special is unknown and unexplored as to this day. After that came the 32-layer Cascade ability on the PC3 line, & Dynamic Edit, which totally frees us from pre-patched signal interconnections among blocks(!).

 

   So basically, I can still find a lot more use out of a K2000, a K2500 and a K2600 to this day. There's a lot more to cover on the latter two. This said, Cascade & Dynamic is the ultimate in V.A.S.T. flexibility, so combine this with the K2000 branding for the new K2061, with synth-orientation and synth action, and this is a very tempting proposition.

 

   We might need a hand, maybe from Dave, to materialise this as Canadian distribution still seems to be non-existent AFAIK.

 

   It's the depth of V.A.S.T. here that interests me, so I can do without the flagship. I could do with the ability to load user samples, as I do use that for some interesting things.

 

   There are definite advantages with the flagship if you're gigging though, as a K2700 seems more robust compared to a PC4. OTOH, the PC4 weight is also something to consider. It's no fun having to lug a K2500XS or an 88-note K2600. Keybed action: I definitely miss the synth action of the K2000 when I play my K2500XS (synth-orientation needs for me), so the K2061 is looking really good if finances allow. If not, I'd be very content with a PC4-7 too, maybe even the smaller PC4 ones or even a PC3!

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, J.F.N. said:

I just got back into this game after 20ish years off the stage. when I decided to get back again I grabbed a PC3 (76 key), I paid 800€ for it and that is about what you find them for, a tad less if you're lucky, these used to be a flagship for quite some time and imho still definitely kind of ish is. Looking to get a Forte 7 very soon, weeks, months... to not have to lug the PC3 back and forth to the rehearsal as I do play and compose at home too. 

 

I think for me this is as flagship as it gets, I am not overly familiar with the Kronos, Motif and Montage, and Fantom machines, the reason I decided to go with the PC3 was that VAST is to my knowledge based on earlier experiences in my life, a very versatile and powerful platform which feels in a lot of ways timeless. If I would have any regrets it would be that I didn't go with the PC3k instead, though I doubt I would spend a lot of time importing samples and fiddle around with that in any larger scale in reality...

 

The Nord platform never appealed to me, I am sure it's an incredible platform for many of you working guys out there, no doubt, but I think the depth of the VAST was the dealbreaker here, and the fact that I do have my Hammond in the HX3, in saying that, I will grab a rotary sim (vent, burn etc.) and try how that works with the KB3 for convenience when needed, as the Leslie sim in the PC3 do feel a bit limited in sound quality due to age.

 

 

Lately ive been using kb3 and a vent.  👌

[RABid]

Check the 5:45 mark of this video.

 

 

[J.F.N.]

11 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

Lately ive been using kb3 and a vent.  👌

 

I do recall we having a conversation about it in another thread, I definitely will source a Leslie sim at some point soon, just having a hard time deciding who to give my money... 😂

[J.F.N.]

23 minutes ago, RABid said:

Check the 5:45 mark of this video.

 

 

 

Crap!!

[Paul Woodward]

Never gigged at any sort of level that requires a flagship board since such a thing became the standard. I have had two Kronos’ but never needed half the features so went with the Grandstage as those were the bits I needed. Same with Roland and Yamaha gear, either picked up a top model cheap, or went with lesser models (FA-06, Korg Krome, JD-Xi etc, Moog Subsequent etc).

had a few ‘flagship’ Yamaha stage pianos but that’s because I wanted a quality keybed and piano sounds.

[Keepitsimple]

39 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Never gigged at any sort of level that requires a flagship board since such a thing became the standard. I have had two Kronos’ but never needed half the features so went with the Grandstage as those were the bits I needed. Same with Roland and Yamaha gear, either picked up a top model cheap, or went with lesser models (FA-06, Korg Krome, JD-Xi etc, Moog Subsequent etc).

had a few ‘flagship’ Yamaha stage pianos but that’s because I wanted a quality keybed and piano sounds.

Don't underestimate what the Kronos is capable of (not saying you personally did, just generally speaking). I once had to perform a musical live with my students back when i was teaching. The play needed all kinds of sounds, from piano to FX to strings, you name it. And being performed live, i had to jump back and forth between all of the sounds during the scenes.

 

Kronos Setlists made everything a breeze.

 

To say that i gave the Kronos's live capability a run for its money during that musical is an understatement. Even the principal came to me afterwards and entertained the idea to buy a Kronos for the school lol.

[J.F.N.]

Will be interesting to see what Korg is up to, the Nautilus cant be the end of that software suite...

[Keepitsimple]

They're going to keep milking those engines till eternity. Pretty exhausting. I do miss my Kronos though!

[Paul Woodward]

33 minutes ago, J.F.N. said:

Will be interesting to see what Korg is up to, the Nautilus cant be the end of that software suite...

Have you noticed that Module got the Oasys piano recently and that Korg Collection is getting the EP-1 and Vox engines from the Kronos? Maybe they are testing the waters for further Kronos engines, maybe adding them to Gadget at some point to make something akin to a software Kronos.

That or an awesome new flagship workstation in the works. Nautilus felt like a bit of a downgrade from Kronos….

[Paul Woodward]

42 minutes ago, Keepitsimple said:

Don't underestimate what the Kronos is capable of (not saying you personally did, just generally speaking). I once had to perform a musical live with my students back when i was teaching. The play needed all kinds of sounds, from piano to FX to strings, you name it. And being performed live, i had to jump back and forth between all of the sounds during the scenes.

 

Kronos Setlists made everything a breeze.

 

To say that i gave the Kronos's live capability a run for its money during that musical is an understatement. Even the principal came to me afterwards and entertained the idea to buy a Kronos for the school lol.

I never doubted what it could do, just never needed many of the features that justified its high price tag. Grandstage and iPad gives me much of the Korg bits I wanted at a much lower price. Korg Collection and Logic goes beyond what it offers sonically, but I understand that’s not the same as an ‘all in one’ board.

[J.F.N.]

15 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Have you noticed that Module got the Oasys piano recently and that Korg Collection is getting the EP-1 and Vox engines from the Kronos? Maybe they are testing the waters for further Kronos engines, maybe adding them to Gadget at some point to make something akin to a software Kronos.

That or an awesome new flagship workstation in the works. Nautilus felt like a bit of a downgrade from Kronos….

 

Yeah I've seen that too, and indeed, Nautilus feels like everything else they've released as "the new shit" during the last years, recycling of whatever pieces they had in stock for no use... Like last days before salary cooking, it's okay food but not very interesting, and sometimes a bit questionable combinations...

[YashN]

3 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Lately ive been using kb3 and a vent.  👌

 

There's an improved Leslie somewhere in a late OS + Objects update for the PC3 line.

[marino]

Simple answer: during the 80s and 90s I was working enough to get flagship instruments. I could have invested my earning in different ways, but I was so eager to work with the best possible tools. Trident, Chroma, Matrix-12, JX-10, K2600, PPG, Q...

The present situation doesn't allow for that anymore - but I'd say that still, today I'm spending much more money in new instruments than I could afford, or need. The passion is still there - and in a way I'm spoiled by the previous situation, so I don't really like too many limitations! The big difference is that I bought most of my present instruments used. Hydrasynth, Pro 3, Integra 7, Poly Evolver Rack... the only instrument that I bought new in recent years is the Iridium Keyboard, and I sold the Hydra and the Q to finance it. And the most recent purchase has been a Take 5, mainly because I found an used one in perfect state at an excellent price.

 

The sad fact is that today, I use my synth much less for onstage work, and more for recording, or for teaching or demonstration purposes, like my Youtube synth videos - or simply for my own enjoyment. I suspect I'm not alone on this path... 🙂 

[Konnector]

The first synth I ever bought as a young teen way back when was a flagship model. 

It was a slightly used Roland SH-1000. It was Roland's first and only synth at that time so it qualifies by default...