gigging with a heavy keyboard- your thoughts?

[LeesKeys]

I'm planning to purchase a new workstation and have narrowed it down to two Kurzweil products- the PC 4 88, and the K2700.  Going by features, the 2700 would be my choice, except for one issue- the weight. At 52 lbs, this would be a bear for me to transport, especially considering that some of my gigs are solo.  The PC4, on the other hand, weighs almost half at 28 lobs. I'm wondering what you think about the weight issue. Anyone gigging with heavy keyboards? Hate that the weight factor is going to be the final deciding point in my purchase.

[Reezekeys]

Are you sure you really need those extra features on the 2700? Versus them simply being "nice to have"? I think we can all be seduced by features, looking at a spec sheet. "FAS" doesn't quite have the ring of "GAS", but there's some similarity, I think.

 

Just spitballing, but maybe there's a way to integrate a tablet with some of those "extras." That will bring the total weight of the PC4 up by... one pound! 🙂 

[Ibarch]

For the last 20 years weight has been the primary factor in choosing a keyboard for me. It had to be under 30lb, no exceptions. Touch and feel of the keybed is next as I have to enjoy playing. Sound and features come after these. 

 

The reality is that 99% of people won't hear a difference between keyboards. Most of the time the only person that will care is you. 

[stoken6]

If the choice was between 28lb and 38lb, and the heavier keyboard had something that really inspired you to dig deep and raise your performance, then I'd vote heavy. (My 36lb keyboard inspires me in this way).

 

52lb is going to get old very quickly. I gigged an Ensoniq KS32 (49lb) and then a Viscount Oberheim MC1000 (44lb) in my youth, and I wouldn't go back there.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

If you carry your own stuff you simply need a plan.  If you’re bringing a 50lbs+ board you’ll need a wheeled case or better yet a hand truck and bungie.   If you are also hauling stand and monitoring I suggest a rolling cart and bungie.   
 

At some point you’ll tire of this and want to leave your workstation at home or sell it for a lighter solution.   If you really need multiple layers and splits, the widest variety of sounds there are lighter boards to choose from.  But better yet, you may consider a laptop and controller.  

[Adan]

I like having options. I have a Studiologic Numa X GT which weighs 48 lb, or about 53 lbs in it's Gator slim 88 gig bag. If my piano playing is really in the spotlight, I'll take that because playing on that action really does make a difference to me and therefore to the performance. But the weight is annoying and if I had to carry the GT to every gig I'd sour on it pretty quickly. So I have lighter options.  Sometimes what I bring just depends on my mood and is decided as I'm walking out the door.

 

 

[LeesKeys]

All great responses. Thank you. Reezekeys, you are right. I don't really NEED those extra features of the 2700. And Ibarch- so true, 99%+ of the listeners (maybe even including me) would not recognize any difference in sound quality.

[J.F.N.]

 

I am in the market for a second KW too within the coming months, got a PC3 76 that I plan to leave in the rehearsal space, and get another KW for home/studio. My first thought was also the 2700, but after consulting KWs comparison table, and understanding that the PC4 uses a later version of the Medeli keybed found in the SP4-7, that I also had before but sold because of the keybed, I have finally settled on a Forte instead, check the specs, see what ticks your boxes.

 

https://kurzweil.com/2021/09/02/comparison-chart-workstations/

 

[AnotherScott]

Some (mostly) old points, quickly revisited, when looking at keyboard weights...

 

... remember the case adds more weight, and heavier boards also tend to require heavier cases to hold them

 

... sheer weight is an important spec, but not the only thing that determines the effort required to deal with a board. How the weight is distributed matters, as do the specific dimensions and how easy it is to get your hands around the thing (a combination of the size and shape and whether there are comfortable secure gripping points... something manufacturers still often seem to ignore).

 

(Tangentially, plastic chassis seems to feel lighter to me than metal chassis of about the same weight, possibly because the plastic has some give to it? Maybe something psychological? Maybe coincidental to other things that were making a board seem heavier or lighter? I don't know, but it seems pretty consistent.)

 

... wheels only help so much. You still have to deal with lifting the thing into the car, and lifting the board in and out of its case (on and off the stand). Even for the actual transport, you can find yourself dealing with steps, or non-wheel-friendly terrain (beach sand, grass/hills)... even wheeling over some Manhattan sidewalks would subject the gear to more shock than I'd like. Some heavy duty wheeled devices can better (though still not entirely) deal with these variables, but then those themselves are another possibly heavy and space-consuming thing to have to deal with.

 

... all gear gets heavier after midnight, and all gear gets heavier as you grow older.

 

OTOH, people vary a lot. I've sometimes used a PA with a pair of 60 lb tower speakers... it was a good deal of effort for me to move them individually, my drummer picked up one in each hand like they were nothing. 

[HammondDave]

When I was 16 I lugged around a Hammond C3 with a 122, along with a wurly, clavinet, minimoog, rhodes, and an Ampeg V4 stack!  Now at 68 I lug around a 16lb MODX7+, and an iPad.  And it sounds just as good, if not better, than that old, ridiculous weighted rig. Plus, now at the end of the night, I don't have to worry about no one helping me lift that C3 into the van. 

 

I say embrace technology.  Go lighter, and quieter. Your ears and back will thank you. 

[LeesKeys]

6 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

... all gear gets heavier after midnight, and all gear gets heavier as you grow older.

LOL, not a problem. I'm too old to gig that late. 10pm is about it for me!

6 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

 

[LeesKeys]

4 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

When I was 16 I lugged around a Hammond C3 with a 122, along with a wurly, clavinet, minimoog, rhodes, and an Ampeg V4 stack!  Now at 68 I lug around a 16lb MODX7+, and an iPad.  And it sounds just as good, if not better, than that old, ridiculous weighted rig. Plus, now at the end of the night, I don;t have to worry about no one helping me lift that C3 into the van. 

 

I say embrace technology.  Go lighter, and quieter. Your ears and back will thank you. 

Been there too, done that too. I've been using midi controllers and IOS software for a while and will be integrating that into the new workstation setup.

[ABECK]

10 hours ago, LeesKeys said:

the 2700 would be my choice, except for one issue- the weight. At 52 lbs, this would be a bear for me to transport, especially considering that some of my gigs are solo.  

While on the heavy side, it's surprisingly easy to carry and setup.  It's fairly narrow, balanced and there are good edges to hold on to.  I use a soft case, as I typically don't have to lug it down city blocks or anything.  But a rigid case with wheels would take care of that.  For me, the extra features like the Audio Interface are key, so it was a better buy than the PC4.

[LeesKeys]

1 hour ago, ABECK said:

While on the heavy side, it's surprisingly easy to carry and setup.  It's fairly narrow, balanced and there are good edges to hold on to.  I use a soft case, as I typically don't have to lug it down city blocks or anything.  But a rigid case with wheels would take care of that.  For me, the extra features like the Audio Interface are key, so it was a better buy than the PC4.

So you're using a soft case. Does it have wheels, are you carrying it with a strap over your shoulder, or using a cart to move the keyboard?

[RABid]

I bought a Roland Fantom EX7 and planned to take it back and forth to church during the Christmas season. At 40 lbs it was just too much and I bought a MODX6+ at just under 15 lbs. Much easier to carry but I did run into one problem, the quality of the key action. On the Roland I could do tympany rolls no problem. The MODX6+ keybed was a bit too slow to do convincing rolls, even when I set a split so that I could use two keys playing the same note. Weight is a big factor, but so is keybed quality.

[Delaware Dave]

Went through this back in 2011.  Was carrying a 72 pound stage piano and just couldnt do it anymore , decided on the PC3 series from Kurz, the 88 was 54 pounds and the 76 was 37 so I opted for the 37 pounds.  Two months ago i decided to upgrade the PC3, my choices were narrowed down to a Stage 3 Compact (22 pounds), PC4-7 (28 pounds) and Forte7 (41 pounds); i went with the Forte7 because it had Kurz' largest piano samples (larger and better than both the PC4 and the K2700 which use derivatives of the Forte's sample, 4 gig vs. 1 gig).  Tomorrow I have a gig and in one hour I'm headed to the doctor as my back is in excruitiating pain.  If iI call the doctor because of back pain I can assure that the pain has approached the unbearable state.  I'm now wondering why I just didnt go as lightweight as possible with my recent purchase.  This is also the reason that I no longer carry my "lightweight" Motion Sound Leslie with me anymore.  Personally I'd go PC4 rather than K2700  they are very similar except in the weight dept where they are very different.  My two cents.

[DJkeys]

I started using Nord keyboards back in 2011 for this exact reason.  Both of my instruments are ~20 lbs.

 

-dj

[Adan]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

When I was 16 I lugged around a Hammond C3 with a 122, along with a wurly, clavinet, minimoog, rhodes, and an Ampeg V4 stack!  Now at 68 I lug around a 16lb MODX7+, and an iPad.  And it sounds just as good, if not better, than that old, ridiculous weighted rig. Plus, now at the end of the night, I don't have to worry about no one helping me lift that C3 into the van. 

 

I say embrace technology.  Go lighter, and quieter. Your ears and back will thank you. 

I agree with this bit of wisdom. For me the tough decisions are not about sound quality, but rather the cost/benefit of having a really good weighted action. 

 

I'd love to see a premium weighted action (wooden keys) in a 73 version.  Maybe when pigs fly . . .

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, LeesKeys said:

99%+ of the listeners (maybe even including me) would not recognize any difference in sound quality.

 

IMO, and maybe contrary to some folks' opinions here, whether or not the audience recognizes a difference is not the point. It is (again imnsho), never the point! The audience will never hear what we feel as we play our instrument of choice.

 

52 lbs is still a non-starter though. Maybe you haven't done a wedding gig at the River Club in Brooklyn, NY - where you load in up a narrow wrought-iron staircase up the side of the building through the kitchen (think going up a fire escape!). That was fun one winter day with a glazing of ice on those bare metal steps!

[cphollis]

An extra 15 lbs on a keyboard is like an extra 15 minutes on your commute -- it doesn't sound like a big deal until you do it a hundred times.  Then it's a big deal.  I used to throw out my back with heavy 88 boards years ago -- no longer.

 

If your primary focus is gigging (vs. home or studio), weight matters, simplicity matters, immediacy matters and so on.  For example, I switched to a 73 weighted keybed vs 88 and it was a nice improvement in my overall gigging experience.  My NS4C comes in at 23 lbs, my NP5 at 34 lbs.  I don't feel compromised on the NP5 action.

 

 

[Stokely]

I say it every time, but "heavy" and "cumbersome" are different things.   The latter is more important to me than the former, within reason.

My less than 30 pound Moxf8 was cumbersome, my 42 pound Forte 7 is not.

Cumbersome can mean it's hard to pickup (angles on chassis etc), and just large.   The Moxf8 was in danger of being dropped every time I picked it up, and in danger of being whacked on something.  Large means a larger case and difficulty getting it into my vehicle, which sadly is not a van.   Some keyboards are more compact and are easy to grip.

[J.F.N.]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

When I was 16 I lugged around a Hammond C3 with a 122, along with a wurly, clavinet, minimoog, rhodes, and an Ampeg V4 stack!  Now at 68 I lug around a 16lb MODX7+, and an iPad.  And it sounds just as good, if not better, than that old, ridiculous weighted rig. Plus, now at the end of the night, I don't have to worry about no one helping me lift that C3 into the van. 

 

I say embrace technology.  Go lighter, and quieter. Your ears and back will thank you. 

 

I have memories of 3 in the morning, lifting my Leslie (760 solid state) all on my own out of the van up on the loading pier, where the elevator was, at the rehearsal space building.. (there was no ramp from the parking up to the pier). I have no idea how that was even physically possible, but I was in my early 20's and obviously saw myself as immortal, close to superman..

 

[Reezekeys]

I have those same 3AM memories - of lifting a Yamaha CP70 up a flight of stairs to my loft in New York City. A commercial loft building with a real "elevator operator" – a human whose full-time gig was sitting in this freight elevator all day carrying passengers and stuff up and down. At 5PM he shut it down, locked it and went home. Not a great situation for a musician doing gigs with a CP70 and Rhodes!

[Stokely]

As an aside, if weight and size were not factors the two keyboards I'd have major GAS for are the Roland Fantom 8 and Montage M8x.  Roland and Yamaha made the decision that these are studio keyboards I guess, because they are both humongous and around 63 pounds.  With a decent protective case (not even a flight case) that is close to 90 pounds.

Of course my buddy gigs his Fantom 8, he's both smaller/slighter and older than me, but he also has a van!    Something that big would be a major hassle to get into and out of my car.

[eric]

Wow, I remember the days...from about 1999 until 2011 when I was in a wedding/corporate/general business band and using a two keyboard rig for most of that time. I always had a full 88 note stage piano underneath a clonewheel of one kind or another. Early days, it was Roland RD-600 with Hammond XB2 or XK3, then migrated to Yamaha S90 with Nord Electro 2/3, etc.

 

Back when I got my Roland RD-600, I had a custom Anvil style flight case built by a local shop I've used for decades. I had wheels installed with a handle on the other end, so I could drag the case behind me, up and down steps, etc. Also had a pair of handles installed on the top side of the case where the triple latches were hooked, so when it was time to hoist it into the car or up onto a stage, I'd have the ability to use both arms more easily. This same case worked for my Yamaha S90 as the measurements were close enough. I still have the S90 and the case, stashed away in my gear closet. 

 

That thing was a BEAST! The keyboards were like 50 lbs approximately and the case easily 30+ lbs, so I was lugging 80+ lbs to 8-10 gigs per month. I was wearing a younger man's clothes at the time, and don't recall it being so bad...however, there's not enough money in the world where I'd want to lug that sort of gear nowadays. I've downsized to using mostly Nord Stage Compact models, and even in an Anvil flight case, the schlep factor is so much easier...and for rehearsals, I use a soft case.

 

 

[HammondDave]

42lbs? Fergetta-bout-it!  For weekend warriors playing bar gigs for $100 I make it as easy as possible to set up and strike. I just changed my stand to an all aluminum K 1880 for a quicker setup. Light as a feather. Loosen one screw and open it up. Done! 

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Ibarch said:

weight has been the primary factor in choosing a keyboard for me. It had to be under 30lb, no exceptions. Touch and feel of the keybed is next as I have to enjoy playing. Sound and features come after these. 

 

The reality is that 99% of people won't hear a difference between keyboards. Most of the time the only person that will care is you. 

30 minutes ago, RABid said:

I bought a MODX6+ at just under 15 lbs. Much easier to carry but I did run into one problem, the quality of the key action...Weight is a big factor, but so is keybed quality.

4 minutes ago, Adan said:

For me the tough decisions are not about sound quality, but rather the cost/benefit of having a really good weighted action. 

50 minutes ago, ABECK said:

For me, the extra features like the Audio Interface are key

 

Okay, so sound quality is one aspect, action is another, and features are another. But to some extent, weight eventually can override everything. If there was one (and only one) board you could rate as an A+ in sound, action, and features but it weighed ~70 lbs, I think most of us still wouldn't choose it... even if we once dealt with a real Rhodes or a CP70 or a Hammond chop, whatever. Where we draw that line varies, of course. (And yes, as a number of us have said, weight alone doesn't tell you how easy or hard something will be to deal with... but I think it's safe to say--at least for me--nothing that heavy is going to be easy.)

 

I agree that sound quality will be noticed by virtually nobody but you... which isn't to say that a very satisfying sound can't make a gig more pleasant, and inspire you to play better, and that better performance is something that may be more noticeable by others than the quality of the sound itself. But to me action is more important, at least for pianos (acoustic or electric). That is, I'd rather play an average sounding piano with a great FTE connection than a great sounding piano on a meh action. Or, as Reezekeys said...

 

27 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

The audience will never hear what we feel as we play our instrument of choice.

 

Yup. But again, to the extent that how we feel as we play affects the calibre of our performance, I think every aspect can impact the audience one way or another. Even the interface/ergonomics of the thing.

 

Anyway, back to the OP then, if the weight of the K2700 isn't prohibitive out of the gate, the rationale for it would likely be some combination of features and how much more physically playing it makes you smile. But determining whether that weight crosses the line for you is going to be individual. I already know it would be too much for me. It wouldn't be for my drummer. 😉 

 

4 minutes ago, Stokely said:

As an aside, if weight and size were not factors the two keyboards I'd have major GAS for are the Roland Fantom 8 and Montage M8x.  

 

When the Fantoms came out, I thought the Fantom 7 came very close to an ideal board for me, but at just over 39 lbs, I ruled it out. I eventually got the Fantom-07 which became one of my most frequently used boards, but where Roland has gone on its low and midrange actions is really irritating. At least to me, the Fantom-07 action is a step down from the action of the FA-07 it basically replaced, which in turn, was a step down in action from its Jupiter 50 predecessor.

 

And yes, if not for the weight. the Montage M8x is the keyboard that would most tempt me today.

 

One last thought about actions: If that's the big difference in satisfaction between a heavier and lighter version of what is otherwise a similar or identical board, there's also often the option of buying the lighter one and adding a second board to play it from. This has been commonly discussed in the context of Nords, where people didn't like the feel of the lightweight TP100 actions, and a better hammer action either wasn't available (i.e. on the Electro) or was too heavy to want to carry (Stage), so instead you might pair the semi-weighted version with something like a Casio PX-5S (a pair of 20-ish pound boards being easier to travel with than a single 40-ish pound board).

 

[Justin Havu]

I'd rather gig a heavier board that has a solid feel, and is not going to feel like sliding off the stand at any given time.  Plus, it's great motivation to stay in shape!  Lol

[LeesKeys]

18 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

so instead you might pair the semi-weighted version with something like a Casio PX-5S (a pair of 20-ish pound boards being easier to travel with than a single 40-ish pound board).

 

I think what I may do if I purchase the PC4 88 is to use it on the bottom rack (especially for pianos), and use my iPad to power my Roland 49 on the top rack for organs and some synth sounds- all routed through Camelot Pro

[ABECK]

2 hours ago, LeesKeys said:

So you're using a soft case. Does it have wheels, are you carrying it with a strap over your shoulder, or using a cart to move the keyboard?

I just have a soft case with handles -no strap.  I can carry it ok by my side, but any heavier and I'd want something with wheels.  It's a double edge sword, though.  Robust cases with wheels can add a lot of weight, which becomes a factor when using stairs and loading in and out of a vehicle.