Yamaha E.S.P - as it pertains to Montage M

[ProfD]

18 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

10gb sample library 

AN virtual analogue synth

FM synth

 

 It’s not quite as robust as NI Komplete for example ($599-$1799).  Or MainStage ($29.99) for that matter.  

Right.  But, it's Yamaha.  That name brand carries a certain amount of weight.😁😎

[AnotherScott]

46 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

10gb sample library 

AN virtual analogue synth

FM synth

 

 It’s not quite as robust as NI Komplete for example ($599-$1799).  Or MainStage ($29.99) for that matter.  But if it were to function standalone it would be an interesting alternative and offer consistency for those that work with and without the hardware Montage M.  

26 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Right.  But, it's Yamaha.  That name brand carries a certain amount of weight.😁😎

 

Also, I think the Yamaha would offer a more complete single operating environment (i.e. entirely integrated, self-contained and consistent), which I don't think you get from the NI package unless maybe you're using one of their controllers. (But that's an impression based on limited info, as I haven't used these myself.)

[ElmerJFudd]

11 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Also, I think the Yamaha would offer a more complete single operating environment (i.e. entirely integrated, self-contained and consistent), which I don't think you get from the NI package unless maybe you're using one of their controllers. (But that's an impression based on limited info, as I haven't used these myself.)

Right - if they provide a standalone build for desktop OSes it would be a complete workstation solution.  Consistent PC to Mac to Montage M hardware.  

I think this is what Galaxias is going for (Roland) - the feedback in the other thread about setlist creation is promising.  

[Analogaddict]

9 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

Did you set the display size button in the settings to small? It should fit then.

I couldn’t access that button in Mainstage, but it worked in Key Performer..! 

[Motif88]

Well, they fixed the sync’ing issue with Firmware v1.21

[felis]

On 1/31/2024 at 12:45 PM, ProfD said:

I'm curious to know what you all would consider a reasonable price if Yamaha offered the Montage M software as a standalone version .....

 

$49.00

[zephonic]

21 hours ago, ProfD said:

So far, I believe $500 is the highest I've seen in answer to my question.  

 

I think Yamaha could sell a Montage M software standalone version for $899 MSRP and clean up. Especially considering the Yamaha user base. 

 

 

 

IDK, that seems steep. I’d say at $399 a no-brainer, at $499 or $599 still an instant buy. Above that, I’m gonna have to think about it a bit more. I already have the MODX which is sonically identical to 1st-gen Montage.

 

But I’m still doubtful there will be a stand-alone plugin. And if there is, I wouldn’t be surprised if they make it subscription-only.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

What do you think will be first, the MODX-M or the E.S.P. standalone?

 

My take is that the hardware will be the first, in a couple years (also very close to the M7x and M6x, which they will announce as "long awaited") and then, a year or so later, when the cow begins to feel old and tired, the software will be available.

 

That way, they would maximise hardware sales (as the MODX-M will also enable E.S.P.) and keep milking!

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, zephonic said:

IDK, that seems steep. I’d say at $399 a no-brainer, at $499 or $599 still an instant buy. Above that, I’m gonna have to think about it a bit more. I already have the MODX which is sonically identical to 1st-gen Montage.

Sure.  My $899 MSRP will retail for less depending on where it's bought.  The street price could hover around $699.  Still a fraction of the price of a hardware Montage M or MODX. 

 

Keep in mind the Montage M software I'm envisioning would contain the *ahem* latest Yamaha sounds. 😁😎

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

What do you think will be first, the MODX-M or the E.S.P. standalone?

 

My take is that the hardware will be the first, in a couple years (also very close to the M7x and M6x, which they will announce as "long awaited") and then, a year or so later, when the cow begins to feel old and tired, the software will be available.

 

That way, they would maximise hardware sales (as the MODX-M will also enable E.S.P.) and keep milking!

Looking back at a few decades with Yamaha, they will likely not capitalize on this and the ESP plug-in will never be available as standalone software or for anyone who doesn’t own a Montage M.  Their bean counters have likely already decided that this is simply an added value for the hardware and that’s that.  Roland and Korg will continue to explore this market while Yamaha focuses on hardware.  That’s the pessimistic view.  I hope for the exact opposite. 

[felis]

If they release ESP generally, they'll have to support it down the road.

Steinberg has been supporting Cubase for about 35 years, and the first version of Halion was out in 2001 and still going strong.

Halion has some features missing from ESP, which are important enough to me to not even seriously consider ESP unless it was very cheap.

I've sold all my Yamaha keyboard related stuff because it no longer fits my requirements.

 

Also, I've been waiting for about 10 years for Yamaha to make a pc editor for my DTX-M12.

Yamaha is barely on my radar these days, except for their acoustic drum related stuff.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, felis said:

If they release ESP generally, they'll have to support it down the road.

Steinberg has been supporting Cubase for about 35 years, and the first version of Halion was out in 2001 and still going strong.

Halion has some features missing from ESP, which are important enough to me to not even seriously consider ESP unless it was very cheap.

I've sold all my Yamaha keyboard related stuff because it no longer fits my requirements.

 

Also, I've been waiting for about 10 years for Yamaha to make a pc editor for my DTX-M12.

Yamaha is barely on my radar these days, except for their acoustic drum related stuff.

 

I am pretty sure that most if not all software and driver development for Yamaha’s music creation products is being done at Steinberg - including this virtual Montage M.  But that doesn’t matter as it’s not being sold as a Steinberg product.  
 

The choice to marry ESP access to hardware ownership may seem strange to anyone that has already taken the plunge with VSTs for production and live work (especially given the business models that Roland and Korg have taken with software).  But for long time Yamaha players, this is not a surprise.   It’s the Apple approach.   Lots of “free” and inexpensive software on macOS.  But you have to buy the Mac to use it.  
 

Upon reflection, I think it’s short sighted. There are a lot of interested music makers who would spend hundreds of dollars on a virtual Montage M but will never spend $3.5-4.5k on  a hardware Montage M.  Also, once it’s in the wild the ESP Montage M will surely be kracked.  But Yamaha shouldn’t be concerned with that because A. it’s inevitable and B. hacked software users are not lost customers.  They tend to be broke and willing to risk malware and potentially broken software to play with what is not within their reach.  At that time in their lives they were never going to buy the software.  But things change, and when financial circumstances  change, hacked software users can become potential paying customers. 

[ProfD]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:59 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

But things change, and when financial circumstances  change, hacked software users can become potential paying customers. 

True. Worked out well for FL Studio and their Fruity Loops software.😎

[ElmerJFudd]

28 minutes ago, ProfD said:

True. Worked out well for FL Studio and their Fruity Loops software.😎

True! He's on version 21.  Not bad for software that was never meant to be used my musicians.  

[jazzpiano88]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:59 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

The choice to marry ESP access to hardware ownership may seem strange to anyone that has already taken the plunge with VSTs for production and live work (especially given the business models that Roland and Korg have taken with software).  But for long time Yamaha players, this is not a surprise.   It’s the Apple approach.   Lots of “free” and inexpensive software on macOS.  But you have to buy the Mac to use it.

 

Is this a foregone conclusion?   I thought Yamaha was planning to release a standalone vst down the road.   My rationalization for their delay is (1) Standalone SW isn't ready for prime time as a general release, and HW users will serve as Beta testers;   (2) Yamaha hasn't decided on the standalone vst pricing model.  They need real HW sales figures to feed and validate their sales model before deciding on a price.    It's not like "Apple Vision $3999 announced and available two years from now".  

 

On 2/2/2024 at 2:59 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

Upon reflection, I think it’s short sighted. There are a lot of interested music makers who would spend hundreds of dollars on a virtual Montage M but will never spend $3.5-4.5k on  a hardware Montage M.  Also, once it’s in the wild the ESP Montage M will surely be kracked.  But Yamaha shouldn’t be concerned with that because A. it’s inevitable and B. hacked software users are not lost customers.  They tend to be broke and willing to risk malware and potentially broken software to play with what is not within their reach.  At that time in their lives they were never going to buy the software.  But things change, and when financial circumstances  change, hacked software users can become potential paying customers. 

 

Again, you've written this like a vst release will never happen.    If so, I don't see a significant kracken happening to steal ~$4k from a pretty decent company.  I have no issues cracking Adobe, but Yamaha??

[ElmerJFudd]

Just now, jazzpiano88 said:

 

Is this a foregone conclusion?   I thought Yamaha was planning to release a standalone vst down the road.   My rationalization for their delay is (1) Standalone SW isn't ready for prime time as a general release, and HW users will serve as Beta testers;   (2) Yamaha hasn't decided on the standalone vst pricing model.  They need real HW sales figures to feed and validate their sales model before deciding on a price.    It's not like "Apple Vision $3999 announced and available two years from now".  

 

 

Again, you've written this like a vst release will never happen.    If so, I don't see a significant kracken happening to steal ~$4k from a pretty decent company.  I have no issues cracking Adobe, but Yamaha??

Ya, that’s my pessimistic view.  I hope for the exact opposite outcome. 

[jazzpiano88]

20 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Ya, that’s my pessimistic view.  I hope for the exact opposite outcome. 

 

Similar here.   I'm expecting the Chiefs to win, but hoping for the opposite 😆. 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:54 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

 

 

Vagueness continues -

 

It seems you need the hardware; they aren't selling the plug-in separately.   If so, that's a bizarre choice as those who would want the VST most are those that don't own the hardware. 

So what technically would happen if you didn't need have the hardware?  I ask because I've been having trouble getting Logic (or any DAW) to authorize the plugin.  I don't have my Montage connected to the computer though.  I thought the plugin was standalone (hence all the GBs of data (I assumed samples, etc) that come with it.  But maybe if I connected it via USB, it would authorize.  

 

I also want to add that Steinberg authorization manager is saying that it's activated... super weird.  

On 1/27/2024 at 8:54 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

 

If it requires the hardware - do you have to always have your Montage M with you?  You couldn't say, take all your Montage M playlists on your MacBook to a gig and just use the backline's keyboard or other controller? 

 

It doesn't have a standalone version?  Only wrapped as AU/VST so you have to use a host? 

 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

I also want to say that it would be somewhat counter productive for them to allow people to use the software without the keyboard... then nobody would go spend 4k on the board.  Right?  or not near as many for sure.  

 

Then what happens if you OWNED the keyboard, but then sold it.  Would you still have the right to the software or would that move to the next person?

[DeltaJockey]

1 hour ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

So what technically would happen if you didn't need have the hardware?  I ask because I've been having trouble getting Logic (or any DAW) to authorize the plugin.  I don't have my Montage connected to the computer though.  I thought the plugin was standalone (hence all the GBs of data (I assumed samples, etc) that come with it.  But maybe if I connected it via USB, it would authorize.  

 

I also want to add that Steinberg authorization manager is saying that it's activated... super weird.  

 

I have a second install of it on a Macbook that I use with my Roland RD88, or Numa X GT. It fresh installs and works as an independent plugin, without the need for the hardware Montage at any point. Not sure why Logic doesn't let it register, must be something else going on with your system that is causing that.

 

As far as installing the plugin, then selling the hardware, I see no reason why you couldn't actually do that, but you'd have to allow fudging a couple of things.

 

1. The new owner doesn't hold you to task on transferring it to them.

2. Your Montage serial is registered under your account at Yamaha. Again, the new owner would have to not worry about serial number changes.

 

Other than that, there's no way Yamaha/Steinberg would know you didn't have the hardware in your possession.

 

For the point of case, you could also theoretically allow someone else, who doesn't own the hardware to install one of the 3 activations on their computer, but it would still be activated under you account. Of course it's not a recommended course of action legally, and someone would have to give them the install file. Of course this is only one step from piracy, so not to be condoned. It's just to demonstrate that it's tied to you account not your hardware.

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I have a second install of it on a Macbook that I use with my Roland RD88, or Numa X GT. It fresh installs and works as an independent plugin, without the need for the hardware Montage at any point. Not sure why Logic doesn't let it register, must be something else going on with your system that is causing that.

 

As far as installing the plugin, then selling the hardware, I see no reason why you couldn't actually do that, but you'd have to allow fudging a couple of things.

 

1. The new owner doesn't hold you to task on transferring it to them.

2. Your Montage serial is registered under your account at Yamaha. Again, the new owner would have to not worry about serial number changes.

 

Other than that, there's no way Yamaha/Steinberg would know you didn't have the hardware in your possession.

 

For the point of case, you could also theoretically allow someone else, who doesn't own the hardware to install one of the 3 activations on their computer, but it would still be activated under you account. Of course it's not a recommended course of action legally, and someone would have to give them the install file. Of course this is only one step from piracy, so not to be condoned. It's just to demonstrate that it's tied to you account not your hardware.

The install and use does not require eLicenser?  It’s a simple code install? 
 

Do you need to be connected to the internet to install?  Do you need to be connected to the internet to use? 

[ElmerJFudd]

7 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

I also want to say that it would be somewhat counter productive for them to allow people to use the software without the keyboard... then nobody would go spend 4k on the board.  Right?  or not near as many for sure.  

 

Then what happens if you OWNED the keyboard, but then sold it.  Would you still have the right to the software or would that move to the next person?

I’m not sure that’s true (on stealing hardware sales).   Those that need and want the complete instrument with all functionality perfectly mapped for hands on real time use (not to mention Yamaha’s quality build and actions) they buy the hardware regardless.  I think the software version supports those users.   But making the software available for independent sale opens up a whole different market.   They would have to test that market to know if the additional customers who would never buy the hardware supports development and profit.  Roland and Korg seem to have figured out how to sell software instruments.  

[AnotherScott]

34 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I’m not sure that’s true (on stealing hardware sales)...making the software available for independent sale opens up a whole different market.   They would have to test that market to know if the additional customers who would never buy the hardware supports development and profit.  

Yep, that's the balance they have to try to estimate. Selling a standalone software version would cost them some hardware sales. Selling a standalone software version will also make them money from people who would never buy the hardware version. The question for them is, "net net," where do they have to price it to come out ahead? One more wrinkle... the independent availability of the software version could conceivably reduce not just Montage M sales, but possibly also sales of other models, specifically MODX+. 

 

Certainly the calculation works in their favor at some retail price, but they would still want to figure out which retail price maximizes the equation. For example, I assume if they priced the software at something like $2995, that would work in their favor. Sure, not so many people would buy it, but they would probably make as much on each sale as they do selling an actual Montage M, so in the end, whether they sell 10 units of the software, or 100, or 1000, there's no lost revenue. At the other extreme, if they priced it at $99, they'd sell tons of them, but there would likely be a more-than-offsetting net profit decline in reduced sales of hardware. Somewhere in between, there's probably a sweet spot that maximizes their total profit from the sum of the hardware and software unit sales.

 

And whatever that number is, they may have to factor in PR. While they might profitably sell some number at $2995, they might also face some backlash at coming out with software that seems priced beyond what may be seen as appropriate for the market. How would folks react if it were even $995? Still too high? And would that even be a net-profitable price point for them? What if at that price they bundled it with Halion? Possibilities...

 

34 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Roland and Korg seem to have figured out how to sell software instruments.  

But nothing that completely and directly sonically and operationally replaces their current flagship products.

[ElmerJFudd]

56 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yep, that's the balance they have to try to estimate. Selling a standalone software version would cost them some hardware sales. Selling a standalone software version will also make them money from people who would never buy the hardware version. The question for them is, "net net," where do they have to price it to come out ahead? One more wrinkle... the independent availability of the software version could conceivably reduce not just Montage M sales, but possibly also sales of other models, specifically MODX+. 

 

Certainly the calculation works in their favor at some retail price, but they would still want to figure out which retail price maximizes the equation. For example, I assume if they priced the software at something like $2995, that would work in their favor. Sure, not so many people would buy it, but they would probably make as much on each sale as they do selling an actual Montage M, so in the end, whether they sell 10 units of the software, or 100, or 1000, there's no lost revenue. At the other extreme, if they priced it at $99, they'd sell tons of them, but there would likely be a more-than-offsetting net profit decline in reduced sales of hardware. Somewhere in between, there's probably a sweet spot that maximizes their total profit from the sum of the hardware and software unit sales.

 

And whatever that number is, they may have to factor in PR. While they might profitably sell some number at $2995, they might also face some backlash at coming out with software that seems priced beyond what may be seen as appropriate for the market. How would folks react if it were even $995? Still too high? And would that even be a net-profitable price point for them? What if at that price they bundled it with Halion? Possibilities...

 

But nothing that completely and directly sonically and operationally replaces their current flagship products.

$995, I think that may be too high with no hardware.  MODX 61 is $1499.99.  
The package is at its essence 2 digital synths,  FM-X, AN-X and a sample player with 10gb library and VCM fx.  Native Instruments Komplete 14 standard has 15 synths, 36 sampled instruments, 19fx, 38 sound expansion packs - $599.  
 

I have wondered for ages why so many developers from the smallest to the largest have FM and VA synths.  And never a DX or AN soft synth from Yamaha itself.  

[ProfD]

51 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yep, that's the balance they have to try to estimate. Selling a standalone software version would cost them some hardware sales. Selling a standalone software version will also make them money from people who would never buy the hardware version. The question for them is, "net net," where do they have to price it to come out ahead? One more wrinkle... the independent availability of the software version could conceivably reduce not just Montage M sales, but possibly also sales of other models, specifically MODX+. 

As I mentioned, there is s diehard Yamaha user base who may not upgrade their legacy hardware or cop the latest but they would buy a standalone software version in order to have the *latest* sounds.  IMO, hardware sales would not be cannibalized.😎

[DeltaJockey]

9 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The install and use does not require eLicenser?  It’s a simple code install? 
 

Do you need to be connected to the internet to install?  Do you need to be connected to the internet to use? 

Yes it does require the e-licencer. Which is why I mentioned the scenario using someone else's account. My point was that the Montage hardware is not physically required in any instance to install the plugin. You do have to be connected to the internet to initially activate with e-licencer, but after that it can be untethered and go anywhere you like offline to use it.

[ElmerJFudd]

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Yamaha' s EXperimental phase

[AnotherScott]

On 2/5/2024 at 11:33 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

$995, I think that may be too high with no hardware.  MODX 61 is $1499.99.  
The package is at its essence 2 digital synths,  FM-X, AN-X and a sample player with 10gb library and VCM fx.  Native Instruments Komplete 14 standard has 15 synths, 36 sampled instruments, 19fx, 38 sound expansion packs - $599.

 

$995 might be high, but not necessarily unmarketable. Though I'd be interested in paying more like half that. 😉

 

But as for the comparison with Komplete... I don't think Komplete is a plug-and-play environment is it? I mean, you can't just plug in a controller, and immediately have all the sounds in a coherent performance-oriented interface. Maybe if you buy one of NI's Kontrol-S controllers? But even then, I"m unconvinced that those are well-equipped for live performance, i.e. for dealing with complex splits/layers, mid-song patch changes, etc. Yamaha could be offering something very different here.

 

12 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Yamaha' s EXperimental phase

 

I've been tempted to pick one of those rack units when they have popped up now and then. But realistically, I don't think I have a justifiable use for it.