External Power Supplies revisited

[Synthaholic]

14 hours ago, DroptopBroham said:

This IEC thing comes up all the time when new keyboards come out. Most come out with external power supplies, deal with it. I've never forgotten an external power supply at home or at a gig, never had one fail on me except the original one I had with my Fizmo but that was a Fizmo issue that fried the power supply.

 

I'm just getting tired of all these boomers here complaining about external power supplies banging the IEC drum. Imagine the silent cries from the silent generation what is was like before the internet when keyboards moved from having hardwired power cables to IEC cables. "What if I forget my cable at home?" Oh no the travesty. 

 

Are we all just going to be playing through KC500's with it's hardwired power cable, when the KC600 is much more advanced and better sounding just because some random dolt forgets his IEC cable at home? 

 

It seems to be a boomer thing. There's a lot of great gear with external power supplies, mixers, synths, modules, pedals, to pass on technology because of it is idiotic. In this forum where everyone is using electronic keyboards it doesn't make sense that half the forum are luddites. I can see if I was on pianoworld but this is keyboard corner.

 

External power supplies bring a lot to the table, big upside, from lighter keyboards to being easily replaceable without a service visit. It's 2024, get with the times.

I'm on record here a few times that I love that my PC4-7 has an external supply. The board is lighter than it would be - a major consideration for me - and eliminates something under the hood that could go wrong. I've had internal power supplies fail and you think it's the PS, you're almost positive it's the PS, but you have some anxiety not knowing if it's actually something more catastrophic. 😬 And for me, I have to box it and mail it and yada yada yada.

 

Dave Weiser found those PC4 compatible PS on The Big Store and they're only like $15. I have three. I keep an extra one in the vehicle, and the original Kurz PS at home. Peace of mind.

[Mighty Motif Max]

2 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

..The wall-wart variety also take up a lot of space on a power strip or wall outlet.

 

That's my other pet peeve, especially when rack-mounting gear. I have to leave an extra blank rack space just for the PSU's to hang off, and can't even use the full complement of outlets. Either that or they have the block in the middle of the cord, which is a pain too because then there's another thing to velcro down and try to make stay put in the rack.

 

For the record, I have plenty of gear with external PSU's, and will continue to. I just don't like that PSU style much.

[Coker]

5 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

 

That's my other pet peeve, especially when rack-mounting gear. I have to leave an extra blank rack space just for the PSU's to hang off, and can't even use the full complement of outlets. Either that or they have the block in the middle of the cord, which is a pain too because then there's another thing to velcro down and try to make stay put in the rack.

 

For the record, I have plenty of gear with external PSU's, and will continue to. I just don't like that PSU style much.

I bought a bag of six one-foot extension cords for very little to plug into the strip as needed.  Every wall wart turns into an in-line wart with these, so they use only one space in the strip.

[bfields]

Dumb question: is there any reason keyboards couldn't standardize on USB power?

[kenheeter]

USB is only 5V and limited current. Not enough power for most keyboards.

[Mills Dude]

2 hours ago, bfields said:

Dumb question: is there any reason keyboards couldn't standardize on USB power?

Not a dumb question at all.  I wish the KB manufacturers would embrace USB-C PD like the laptop and mobile phone makers and soon to be Apple, thanks to the EU. The thing I hate most about the wall warts is the plethora of connectors and varying electrical requirements.  If everything standardized on USB-C it'd be easier to source quality cables and power supplies.

 

I get that USB-C PD is a bit of a mess and can be confusing but I think less confusing that searching a bin of wall warts to find the proper one.  

[Ibarch]

I have a cheap Casio which I use for open mics and practices, than runs on rechargeable batteries. Better than a wall wart and a internal power supply. No cable to forget or fall over. Best option of all. 

 

I would like to see keyboards come with rechargeable batteries that could last long enough for one and a half of my longest gigs. Not sealed in like the nonsense in phones and tablets. In a user replaceable format that can easily be swapped out in moments with another, so I can keep a charged battery pack in reserve. 

 

Power leads are so last century. 

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, kenheeter said:

USB is only 5V and limited current. Not enough power for most keyboards.

 

That's true for pre-USB-C, but USB-C can provide 100 Watts of power right now and the spec was recently revised up to 240 watts. Also note that there are latching USB-C connectors available, which would make the connector suitable for stage use. USB-C also means you could have a single external power supply with multiple connectors for powering multiple devices, instead of a collection of multiple wall warts. And unlike IEC, you wouldn't need a barrier strip for all those line cords.

 

Also remember that USB-C is a connector standard, not necessarily a port (although both Thunderbolt and USB Gen 3 use USB-C as the port's connector).

 

It's a shame that these Gen-Zers are stuck in the past with their wall warts instead of getting hip to the modern alternative 🤣 Yes, I'm being silly. But the reality is all these different power options have advantages and disadvantages that exist independently of the user's age, race, religion, creed, or preferred breakfast cereal. 

[Stokely]

Standardization of any sort would be very welcome.

I'm sure there are good reasons for it (actually I'm not), but it's always seemed nuts to me (a non-ee type) that if I gathered up every wall wart from my house and hell my entire neighborhood of 100+ houses, that I'd be left with a veritable mound of similar-looking squarish power supplies that are mostly incompatible.

- different size connections (and I share the distaste for that wobbly connector type)
- different polarity

- different voltages
- different current

- some are AC, some are DC

I get that some devices require a lot less oomph than others but it's about the worst system someone could devise.  Kudos to the guitar amp pedal makers for getting close to one standard.   It would be great if keyboard makers could get together and say "we are all going to be using this" as a standard, even if it has to differ from the guitar pedal one.   So at least any and all keyboards (or similarly-powered music gear) could all use one type of power supply.  One can dream I guess.

[Jim Alfredson]

USB-C as a standard power delivery format isn't a terrible idea but the long-term robustness of that small connector is worrisome, especially for a professional touring band. The best solution is internal power supplies with standard IEC connectors, imo. And while we're at it, can there be a standard side that they are on? It would make my cable runs much more organized.  

And can they come with roadies to set them up for me? C'mon manufacturers.

 

[Dave Bryce]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

This IEC thing comes up all the time when new keyboards come out. Most come out with external power supplies, deal with it.

 

"Most"?

 

Can you quantify that?  Give examples of which manufacturers to which you refer, please.  My JP-X uses an internal power supply, that's a pretty new keyboard...so does my Kurzweil Forte, and my Arturia MatrixBrute - also fairly new instruments.

 

Here's a question - why did synth pioneer/electrical engineer Dave Smith go from using a wall wart for his first few DSI instruments like the Poly Evolver to using IEC connectors on later instruments such as the Pro2?

 

From my experience working with keyboard manufacturers, the main reason they use external power supplies/wall warts is to same development/production costs and time to market.  I believe that internal power supplies mean the instrument itself has to pass UL and CE certification, whereas wall warts typically already have passed that certification for the instrument using it.

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

I've never forgotten an external power supply at home or at a gig, never had one fail on me 

 

Then you're lucky.  

 

Please do allow for the possibility that those of us who are grumbling about wall warts have actually had these experiences.  Also, as mentioned in a post above, those flimsy cables on the wall warts do not exactly inspire confidence in the robustness of the product.  The crap wall wart that came with the Hydrasynth always made me nervous when I had one, and was honestly one of the reasons I sold it.

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

I'm just getting tired of all these boomers here complaining about external power supplies banging the IEC drum.

 

How do you know how old the folks posting on this thread are?  🤔

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

Imagine the silent cries from the silent generation

 

I don't even know what that means, brother. 

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

what is was like before the internet when keyboards moved from having hardwired power cables to IEC cables

 

What year was that?  Again, please give examples.  Way more of the 80s era instruments I own/have owned have had IEC connectors.  The last one I bought with a hardwired power cord is my MiniMoog.

 

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

…just because some random dolt forgets his IEC cable at home? 

 

It seems to be a boomer thing. There's a lot of great gear with external power supplies, mixers, synths, modules, pedals, to pass on technology because of it is idiotic. In this forum where everyone is using electronic keyboards it doesn't make sense that half the forum are luddites.

 

It seems to make you feel like your arguments are stronger if you belittle those with whom you do not agree.  I'm guessing it may not be having the effect you want... 

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

I can see if I was on pianoworld but this is keyboard corner.

 

Hi.  My name's Dave.  I founded the Keyboard Corner in the year 2000, so I feel like I kinda don't need to be reminded where we are.

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

External power supplies bring a lot to the table, big upside, from lighter keyboards to being easily replaceable without a service visit

 

As far as I can tell, beside the lower production cost/time to market thing, the ease of replacing them is pretty much the only advantage they bring.

 

 

8 hours ago, Coker said:

I bought a bag of six one-foot extension cords for very little to plug into the strip as needed.  Every wall wart turns into an in-line wart with these, so they use only one space in the strip.

 

Me, too. 👍

 

dB

 

 

[Pa Gherkin]

Hey Jim, You mentioned converting your SK2 to an internal power supply a few posts back. Might you care to elaborate on what that entailed? I’m wondering about location, method of fastening, what ps was used, overheating risks, keeping a jack open to use an external ps if the internal one craps out, and any other info you could provide. This is something I would love to do to my SK2. Out of my three H/S clonewheels the SK2 is the only one with an external supply and as you know, it’s a pain. Thanks. 

[jazzpiano88]

A few random thoughts.  One thing that I always disliked about the Wall wart is that it just reeks of a non-pro aesthetic.  You unbox that crap and you think $49 consumer router. 

You have to go to extra lengths to make your rig not look like a rats nest.   And it’s not an old/new,  Luddite, racist, ageist, sexist phenomenon.   Everybody has dealt with it, ex: way back when prosumer Alesis effects racks all had wall warts.  (at least that was when I was first dealing with them).  
 

You want an example of something that exudes quality, look at the Apple TV.  The fit of that C7 would survive a space launch.  

[The Piano Man]

I guess the great thing is that there are choices out there.

 

For me, Internal PS are the way to go. I’ve had years of wall warts and got fed up with

- flimsy cables

- making sure I had the right ones in the bag

- a couple of faulty ones

- the unprofessional look

 

Compare that to internal PS. Just grab a kettle lead from the same cables case where I store my kettle leads for mixer, powered speakers, keyboard amp, stage lights etc etc.

 

I personally wish more boards included an internal PS and I have been put off purchasing because of external PS.

[Jim Alfredson]

28 minutes ago, Pa Gherkin said:

Hey Jim, You mentioned converting your SK2 to an internal power supply a few posts back. Might you care to elaborate on what that entailed? I’m wondering about location, method of fastening, what ps was used, overheating risks, keeping a jack open to use an external ps if the internal one craps out, and any other info you could provide. This is something I would love to do to my SK2. Out of my three H/S clonewheels the SK2 is the only one with an external supply and as you know, it’s a pain. Thanks. 

Sure! It was fairly painless. There is plenty of room in the SK2 for an internal power supply. I used a Meanwell LRS-50-12. It was $12 at Jameco. It is shielded, which is good for an internal switching power supply because they can induce noise into the audio. Thankfully this one did not induce any noise.

https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=2257547

I mounted it on the right hand side using some M3 screws, about 4mm in length. The Meanwell has two threaded screw holes in the bottom plus two through hole mounts on the opposing ends. I used the two threaded screw holes and the through holes with washers and nuts. To create a template for drilling, I put painter's tape on the bottom of the Meanwell and marked where the holes were. Then I transferred that over to the SK2, center tapped the holes, and drilled accordingly. 

I mounted an IEC panel mount connector right above the big HAMMOND logo. I used a Dremel tool to cut the hole out, again using painters tape to mark out my lines. I covered the exposed circuit boards with a cloth so as not to get any debris from the Dremel on them.

 

I then removed the main board where the original barrel power connector is mounted and removed it. I thought about keeping it there but mine was damaged anyway from using a non-Hammond power adapter on a gig where I left the Hammond one at another gig, 3 hours away. I had to make due so I jimmied a different adapter to work and it damaged the center pin of the original barrel connector. So I just removed it. You could keep it there if you wanted.

After removal, I soldered two wires, one red for positive, one black for negative, to the appropriate pads on the circuit board. I ran those over two the Meanwell and connected them to it's terminals (screw terminals). I then connected the IEC to the Meanwell via the appropriate wiring (LINE, NEUTRAL, GROUND). And re-installed the main board. Everything worked flawlessly.

I have a video showing the completed work here: https://www.facebook.com/jim.alfredson.3/posts/pfbid0mi3MdXdYJq6fMB5wQGESrMMdy7D7fJicYgX1yhJg23frqf4pf8nyq8ckAfNs8nS1l

 

A couple tips: If you've never had the SK2 apart, there's a bracket that extends from the top panel to the bottom of the case that is held in with a bottom screw. It's the only screw on the bottom that is singular; it doesn't look like other screws. That held me up the first time I took it apart. I took out the top panel screws and the back panel screws and the panel still wouldn't come off. You can see the metal bracket in my video. Make sure you remove that screw.

 

You need only remove the top keyboard to do the work. You have to remove the side panels to get it out of there, though. It screws into the bottom. Should be obvious which screws hold it in place.

 

Be careful with the keyboard ribbon connectors and use a Sharpie to mark which is which.

[stoken6]

22 hours ago, rogs said:

Shame there doesn't seem to have been any attempt at standardisation?

That's where USB comes in. I'd like to see USB-C become a standard for electronic musical instruments/accessories the way it has for phones/wireless earphones/fitness bands/etc.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Real MC]

On 1/4/2024 at 3:26 PM, DroptopBroham said:

Okay boomer.

 

My, aren't you the respectable one throwing around demonizing labels.

 

On 1/5/2024 at 9:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

This IEC thing comes up all the time when new keyboards come out. Most come out with external power supplies, deal with it. I've never forgotten an external power supply at home or at a gig, never had one fail on me except the original one I had with my Fizmo but that was a Fizmo issue that fried the power supply.

 

Oh, I promise you - I HAVE DEALT WITH THEM
 

From my experience WALL WARTS DO FAIL

 

There are very good reasons why I prefer IEC over wall warts, but since you're the disrespectful one with the demonizing labels you do not deserve that wisdom from me.

 

On 1/5/2024 at 9:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

External power supplies bring a lot to the table, big upside, from lighter keyboards to being easily replaceable without a service visit. It's 2024, get with the times.

 

I've been gigging since 1981, I don't need any lectures from you about getting with the times.

 

On 1/5/2024 at 9:08 AM, DroptopBroham said:

I'm just getting tired of all these boomers here complaining about external power supplies banging the IEC drum

 

It seems to be a boomer thing.

 

Oh noes more demonizing labels.

You see this?

 

That's my ignore list.

Very few members are on that list, and you're on it because of your petulant disposition in other threads the past few months.  Throwing around demonizing "boomer" labels is no way to win you friends - while I don't fit the "boomer" definition, that is still an offensive attitude.  As far as I concerned, there is no redeeming for you so I will never see your trash posts.  Again.  You probably won't miss me, you don't care - well neither do I.  You have been removed from my life, like my ex.

 

No I didn't go crying to the moderators "ban him - ban him".  I am much more mature than that.  The same cannot be said of you.

 

[Anderton]

5 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

USB-C as a standard power delivery format isn't a terrible idea but the long-term robustness of that small connector is worrisome, especially for a professional touring band. The best solution is internal power supplies with standard IEC connectors, imo.

 

Standard IEC connectors are no doubt more robust than USB-C, but perhaps not by as much as you might think. The USB-C connector itself is designed for around 10,000 plug/unplug cycles, but can go as low as 1,000 or as high as 20,000, depending on the quality. One potential advantage is that stressing the connector isn't transferred to the circuit board as much as it is to the casing. So, in the event of someone ripping a cable out of the USB-C connector to the point where damage occurs, or the connector itself fails, you'll probably need to replace the connector, not the circuit board.

 

Another possible advantage is that if you're using a non-locking connector and someone trips over a USB cable, the odds are that it will detach from the unit being powered. It won't drag a keyboard off its stand, which can be an issue with IEC line cords. Smartphones go through lots of plug/unplug cycles, so they've been pretty heavily field-tested. Again, IEC connectors are more robust, but USB-C has a few tricks up its sleeve. For example, it's way more reliable than the original USB-A connectors, even though their larger size might make it seem like they'd be heavier-duty.  

 

The USB-C is a compromise for consumer connectors because it has to handle displays, computers, smartphones, etc. But, as compromises go, it makes a lot of right choices. Aso note that it can handle far more plug/unplug cycles than the typical barrel plugs and jacks used by wall warts. They're often rated at around 500 plug/unplug cycles. 

 

[Stokely]

If they do go to usb-c, make them lockable as someone suggests.  Or at least improve on whatever my 2016 macbook pro ports--I breathe heavily near that laptop and the stuff I have plugged in comes loose, and the worst part is that it's hard to notice until I go to use it.

I'm still amazed that some group oked the original usb A connectors..."it's ok Bob, nobody will mind trying them on one side, turning them over and it still won't work, then go back to the original side and it works!"

Anyway, I guess this is when the 2024 wall wart wars (WWW) truly started  but so far it's a pretty one-sided affair.  Perhaps there will be more wartaphiles chiming in.

[Old No7]

Amazing!  I had posted this as a humorous posting..................... 😃

 

Who knew what would happen?!?!?!

 

Old No7

[CEB]

My I use USB power with the live rig.  I have never had problems.  My tablet is always connected to USB power and I run the Roland D-05 off USB bus power.  The connectors look a little delicate but so far I have never had a failure.  Knock on plastic.

[CEB]

8 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

.... And while we're at it, can there be a standard side that they are on? It would make my cable runs much more organized.  

 

This is on my wish list.  Audio runs on one side and power on the other.

[TJ Cornish]

External power supplies are about two things: Cost reduction as often that means the keyboard doesn’t have to be UL listed, and weight savings.

 

If a person is passionate in either direction - e.g. “my 11lb keyboard is SOOOOOO heavy” or “Any piece of gear without an internal power supply is garbage”, the market has an option for you. 

 

I personally travel pretty heavy and prefer stuff with internal power supplies and the feel that comes with heavy construction. My cords are IEC on the keyboard end and Powercon on the supply end that plug into my rack.

 

The idea of USB-C as a power connection is interesting - one challenge is that there tends to be a length limit to the length of the USB-C cable - not sure I’ve ever seen one longer than 2 meters.  I sure love USB-C on laptops, though!

[Floyd Tatum]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:56 AM, Anderton said:

The first thing I do with any product that has a wall wart is put a non-removable label on it with the name of the associated product!

Great minds think alike!

[Pa Gherkin]

Jim, Thank you so much for the comprehensive post explaining how you changed the SK2 to an internal power supply. I’ll bet it will benefit more than just yours truly. 
 

Dave Bryce, having read  this entire thread I’ve come to the conclusion that you have the patience of a saint. Many thanks for all you do.

[Jim Alfredson]

17 minutes ago, Pa Gherkin said:

Jim, Thank you so much for the comprehensive post explaining how you changed the SK2 to an internal power supply. I’ll bet it will benefit more than just yours truly. 
 

Dave Bryce, having read  this entire thread I’ve come to the conclusion that you have the patience of a saint. Many thanks for all you do.

My pleasure. Maybe I'll make a full video about it.

[The Piano Man]

15 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

My pleasure. Maybe I'll make a full video about it.

I remember a forum member named “McHale” (I think) showing photos of the process on a Korg M50 and (I think) a Korg Microstation.

 

A video would be amazing. I’m fairly clueless as to where to solder the wires! But I would love to learn 

[stoken6]

11 hours ago, Anderton said:

USB-C connector itself is designed for around 10,000 plug/unplug cycles, but can go as low as 1,000 or as high as 20,000, depending on the quality

11 hours ago, Anderton said:

The USB-C is a compromise for consumer connectors because it has to handle displays, computers, smartphones, etc. But, as compromises go, it makes a lot of right choices.

My understanding is that the USB Implementers' Forum messed up on mini-USB (very unreliable), improved with micro (better longevity, the connector will break rather than the socket, etc), and further improved for USB-C. 

 

21 hours ago, kenheeter said:

USB is only 5V and limited current. Not enough power for most keyboards.

USBC "current mode" offers 5v at 3A = 15W. Enough for a keyboard without (or with modest) built-in speakers. USB-PD offers even more (at the expense of standards complexity).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[TJ Cornish]

36 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

My understanding is that the USB Implementers' Forum messed up on mini-USB (very unreliable), improved with micro (better longevity, the connector will break rather than the socket, etc), and further improved for USB-C. 

 

USBC "current mode" offers 5v at 3A = 15W. Enough for a keyboard without (or with modest) built-in speakers. USB-PD offers even more (at the expense of standards complexity).

 

Cheers, Mike.

I have not collected any data, but I suspect 15W isn’t enough to run a lot of keyboards, and a 5v supply is very limiting as well - pro level boards that can push +12dBU or better can put more than a 5V swing on the outputs. Very basic opamps are fed by +15v/-15v, and good pro stuff with headroom probably a lot more, so that means step up conversion in the board for those functions, not to mention the heat of modern processors and more than one keyboard with fans.

 

The full-fledged USB-C spec probably is enough - that can negotiate up to 48v/240 watts, however as you mention, now you have a connector where it looks like you can use any supply, but only high-current laptop-style USB-C bricks will work.

[Delaware Dave]

15 hours ago, The Real MC said:

 

My, aren't you the respectable one throwing around demonizing labels.

 

 

Oh, I promise you - I HAVE DEALT WITH THEM
 

From my experience WALL WARTS DO FAIL

 

There are very good reasons why I prefer IEC over wall warts, but since you're the disrespectful one with the demonizing labels you do not deserve that wisdom from me.

 

 

I've been gigging since 1981, I don't need any lectures from you about getting with the times.

 

 

Oh noes more demonizing labels.

You see this?

 

That's my ignore list.

Very few members are on that list, and you're on it because of your petulant disposition in other threads the past few months.  Throwing around demonizing "boomer" labels is no way to win you friends - while I don't fit the "boomer" definition, that is still an offensive attitude.  As far as I concerned, there is no redeeming for you so I will never see your trash posts.  Again.  You probably won't miss me, you don't care - well neither do I.  You have been removed from my life, like my ex.

 

No I didn't go crying to the moderators "ban him - ban him".  I am much more mature than that.  The same cannot be said of you.

 

 

So tell us how you really feel .....