Green Onions - Beauty of stop

[CEB]

I read a great post by Jim about being on Sirius as a caller while coming home from the gig and requesting Green Onions.  
 

I always loved the tune.  It took a while for me to realize why.  It’s the absence of Leslie use. I don’t think enough players appreciate either stop or just not using a Leslie cab.  Both chord riffs and lead lines.  It sets great in a mix.  Like the oboe in an orchestra… the oboe is kind of obnoxious by itself but perfect in a Beethoven orchestral piece.  
 

Lately I have been using more chorale but all through my 40s I became a single speed guy. Chorale I felt soften the tone too much and didn’t sit as well in a band.   Some of my favorite cover tunes I’ve done were played on stop.  Price Tag by Jessie J or Woke Up This Morning by Alabama 3 (Theme to The Sopranos).  All this stuff is simple.  Like my favorite quote from the great Mitch Towne, “It doesn’t have to be difficult  to be cool”. 

 

Lord, I wish the Vent had a single speed emulation. The slow wind downs are glorious.   
 

Have a great 2024 friends. 

[CEB]

PS -  Wow, I just realized, Green Onions, Price Tag and Woke Up this Morning are all in the key of F.  Hmmmm?

[drawback]

Get onto YouTube and take a look at how Steve Winwood makes his choices. 

[Doerfler]

I often play my A 100 using just the internal speakers, touch of spring reverb, C3 when I would go to tremelo on my leslie. Glorious in it's own right.

 

Mr. Jones recorded Green Onions while he was still a teenager, IIRC.  It was recorded on a Hammond M3 at a studio  in Memphis, Tennessee.

 

He held a microphone between his knees to mic the speaker of the M3.  

 

 

[mate stubb]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

 

Lord, I wish the Vent had a single speed emulation. The slow wind downs are glorious.   
 

 

I believe it does. At least on my MiniVent (w/ Ashby mod) I could easily switch between Fast<->Stop with coast and Fast<->Slow.

[CEB]

10 minutes ago, mate stubb said:

 

I believe it does. At least on my MiniVent (w/ Ashby mod) I could easily switch between Fast<->Stop with coast and Fast<->Slow.

That is what I use I got it from Bruce along with the 10 pin cable.  Is that an internal dip switch thing?  I will look into that.  

Thanks!

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, Doerfler said:

Mr. Jones recorded Green Onions while he was still a teenager, IIRC.  It was recorded on a Hammond M3 at a studio  in Memphis, Tennessee.

Yes he says he was 17 and a senior in high school.    Really like this version:

 

 

[mate stubb]

3 hours ago, CEB said:

That is what I use I got it from Bruce along with the 10 pin cable.  Is that an internal dip switch thing?  I will look into that.  

Thanks!

 

Mini remote manual for Ashby mod:

https://neo-instruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Mini-Remote-Users-Manual-1.2.pdf

 

I believe the following is the option I used (no longer have that pedal to verify:)

 

"PASS-THRU CONNECTION (TOP SETTING) SWAPPED PASS-THRU CONNECTION (BOTTOM SETTING) The top switch position provides foot switches that function exactly like the ones on a stock mini-VENT – except that they can be placed in another location. A 3-switch pedal can be used to provide dedicated switches for each function (Speed, Stop, Bypass). Tip: Toggles the Speed between Chorale (slow) and Tremolo (fast) Ring: Toggles between Bypass and Effect settings Tip+Ring: Selects Stop speed The bottom switch position works the same, except that the Ring and Tip+Ring functions are swapped. This makes it easier to select Stop speed with a 2-position pedal, moving Bypass to the more complicated two-switch press. Tip: Toggles the Speed between Chorale and Tremolo Ring: Selects Stop speed Tip+Ring: Toggles between Bypass and Effect settings A 3-wire cable with a TRS plug on the mini-VENT side is required to connect to the control pedal, wired as in Figure 2. The Mini-Remote senses the polarity of the switches (normally-open or normally-closed); however, the polarity types cannot be mixed. If no switch is plugged in at startup, the Mini-Remote will assume that the switches are normally-open polarity."

 

I had a dual momentary footswitch plugged into the MiniVent that worked like the following after programming:

 

Right switch toggles Fast. Left switch short press chooses Stop or Chorale. Long left switch press  was Bypass.

[Mitch Towne]

The Hammond organ, by its very nature, is a very unforgiving instrument. You have to control the volume with a pedal and you have zero touch sensitivity. I think a lot of organ players gravitate towards chorale because it “softens” the attack somewhat and it is far more forgiving when it comes to making your lines sound in time. 
 

With chorale, however, you sacrifice a strong, direct sound. It’s all a little washy. That’s what jazz greats like Joey D, Jimmy Smith, etc. most often played with the Leslie on “stop.” Your lines cut through much better - more like a horn player. It takes a lot of practice to sound good with the Leslie on “stop.”

[Old No7]

Interesting post...

 

Guess I have not played or listened to enough jazz Hammond, but I know back in the day we (rockers) all bought Hammond's in order to "get that Leslie chorale (and fast) sound"!  I'll have to be somewhat daring and try the off setting on my SK Pro...  Why not, it's a new year -- maybe I'll learn a new trick.

 

Old No7

[CEB]

Except Jon Lord when it was apparent he was going to have to play rhythm guitar on a C3 because Ritchie didn’t like to play rhythm guitar. LOL 😆  Ran that organ in to Marshalls.  Jon played a lot of stationary. 
 

God I loved this song when I was in Jr High.   Still pretty cool. 

 

 

[Old No7]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

Except Jon Lord...

Jon played a lot of stationary.

 

True enough!  Gosh, how'd I miss that one -- must have jazz or pop on my mind, not hard rock!

 

Old No7

[Delaware Dave]

Never liked the stop sound, and i've played a fair amount of jazz back in the day (though not any more), just cant connect with the stop sound, nor with 2nd percussion for that matter..

[CEB]

I have one use for 2nd Perc ... well it's kind of dumb.  The Hammond version of Letterman's stupid pet tricks, if you remember that TV skit.

 

Set your 1st three percussion rockers to On - Normal - Fast.  Then mash the gas and play lead lines on the top manual with your right hand while reaching over with your left and switch back and forth between 2nd and 3rd perc as fast as you can.   It can be sort of cool but then again these rocker switches are over 60 years old.  Forget I posted that.  LOL.  

[Polkahero]

1 hour ago, Delaware Dave said:

Never liked the stop sound, and i've played a fair amount of jazz back in the day (though not any more), just cant connect with the stop sound, nor with 2nd percussion for that matter..

 

Me neither.  Stationary just sounds lifeless to me.  But I do like Green Onions!

[MathOfInsects]

I love stop but usually as a stopover between chorale moments. It's a nice way to build [potential] energy. I like it more for chords and pad moments than single-note lines. It can sound quacky to me with single notes, unless you're literally quoting songs recorded and known for that sound. 

I don't mind second harmonic on perc. There's a "wetter" sound with the third but I like the subtle cut of second sometimes.

[mate stubb]

Stop is another color in the organ's tonal palette.

[analogika]

Brian Auger explained to me that he always hated Leslies because he played so fast that he constantly had the feeling it was eating notes when the horn was facing away from him. 
 

The only recordings of his I’ve seen where he plays through a Leslie, it was on stop. 

[SamuelBLupowitz]

I do enjoy messing around with the stop setting for color every now and then, though I will take @Mitch Towne's comment that it makes your technique sound more exposed as a reason I *like* playing with a Leslie... 😉 

 

I only ever get to play with it on my clones, though; my real Hammond is hooked up to a 147 that only does chorale and tremolo, no brake. Well, except when one of the motors is acting up! My most frequent use of Stop is when I'm trying to get more of a combo organ sound, like if I'm covering The Doors or something. But the more Hammond I play, the more I'm trying to coax out more of the tonal palette from song to song, section to section.

[Old No7]

3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

my real Hammond is hooked up to a 147 that only does chorale and tremolo, no brake. 

 

I had a simple on/off switch for the motors wired into my Leslie 145 with a 147 amp.

 

 

3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

My most frequent use of Stop is when I'm trying to get more of a combo organ sound, like if I'm covering The Doors or something.

 

Exactly why we added the "motor off" switch; it couldn't be controlled from the keyboard but it wasn't used all that much.

 

Old No7

[Old No7]

4 minutes ago, Old No7 said:

...it couldn't be controlled from the keyboard but it wasn't used all that much.

 

Here's where the motor on/off switch was located.

 

Old No7

 

[drawback]

I was just listening to this on KNKX in the car and thought I’d post as a prime example of judicious (delicious?) use of Leslie speeds, brake, stop, etc. Dig the whole thing, or skip to the organ/guitar solos at about 4:15. 
 

 

[CEB]

6 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

I do enjoy messing around with the stop setting for color every now and then, though I will take @Mitch Towne's comment that it makes your technique sound more exposed as a reason I *like* playing with a Leslie... 😉 

 

I only ever get to play with it on my clones, though; my real Hammond is hooked up to a 147 that only does chorale and tremolo, no brake. Well, except when one of the motors is acting up! My most frequent use of Stop is when I'm trying to get more of a combo organ sound, like if I'm covering The Doors or something. But the more Hammond I play, the more I'm trying to coax out more of the tonal palette from song to song, section to section.

If you want to experiment some , you can unplug the slow motors.  

[John Tweed]

2 hours ago, Old No7 said:

 

I had a simple on/off switch for the motors wired into my Leslie 145 with a 147 amp.

 

 

My 251/147 is wired with a switch to cut power to the slow motors.
 

In order to be able to go directly from stop to fast, the power has to be cut while in fast - the reason for this is when fast is engaged the upper motor’s drive shaft is physically moved into contact with the horn. Hitting slow at this point disengages the drive shaft. After cutting the power now If you try and engage fast the horn will not accelerate. Whereas if the slow motor power is cut while running fast, the drive shaft stays engaged, and so going from stop to fast is achieved.

 

It took me a little while (ok, years) to figure out why sometimes stop to fast would not always work. I imagine a “brake kit” would resolve this issue more elegantly.

 

The only real drawback with my setup is that when the Legend Live thinks it’s stopped, the Leslie interprets this as fast, so I can only sync the Leslie and onboard simulator with slow and fast, never stop. Good thing I’m not doing big stadium shows anymore 🙂

[Doerfler]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

If you want to experiment some , you can unplug the slow motors.  

I was going to mention this earlier Ed, never got around to posting.  I do it all the time. 

[jpgxk3]

I also ran my 145 with a switch wired into the 2 pin "brake" plug. Made it long enough to mount in a small pvc gem box and did the Velcro mount thing onto side of organ. Worked great, gotta use all the tools in the box. 😁

[Piktor]

35 minutes ago, jpgxk3 said:

I also ran my 145 with a switch wired into the 2 pin "brake" plug. Made it long enough to mount in a small pvc gem box and did the Velcro mount thing onto side of organ. Worked great, gotta use all the tools in the box. 😁

Yay for stop. 
I wired an guitar amp switch that I had laying around to that multi pinned plug, so that I can switch a 147 in and out of stop mode. I like stop best when the organ is overdriven to some degree (sometimes a lot). I usually would use C3 chorus as I would use Leslie tremolo. I marked the active upper horn with a piece of tape so that I can manually turn it to whatever direction I want it to be. 
 

I agree with Moe. The organ and Leslie (or sims) allow a number of colours that I like to use, depending on the musical context. 
Both 2nd and 3rd percussion suit me fine, but not both at he same time (as both my M101 and SK2 allow me to engage). 
 

I can run the Ventilator in its “stop” setting, but I prefer the sound of the actual cabinet for that. 

[Threadslayer]

I always wanted to build a continuous motor control pedal for my Leslie that would allow a more or less linear sweep from STOP through CHORALE to TREMELO and all points in between just to see what it felt and sounded like, but never got around to it. Do any of the modern stomp boxes - Vent, Lester K - offer this capability?

[Bobbo Fett]

Never got into stop until I started covering Green Onions...just doesn't sound right playing it in chorale. One thing I REALLY dig is how dramatic it sounds to go from stop to fast. One thing I DON'T dig is that, at least on my Electro 3, stop can sound dramatically different depending on the orientation of the "horn" when it stops. Sometimes it can really sound a bit hollow if it doesn't land in the right spot.....simulated, of course......

[mate stubb]

10 hours ago, Bobbo Fett said:

Never got into stop until I started covering Green Onions...just doesn't sound right playing it in chorale. One thing I REALLY dig is how dramatic it sounds to go from stop to fast. One thing I DON'T dig is that, at least on my Electro 3, stop can sound dramatically different depending on the orientation of the "horn" when it stops. Sometimes it can really sound a bit hollow if it doesn't land in the right spot.....simulated, of course......

 

I'll take credit for bugging Guido S enough about the horn stop position issue that he included a "stop in front" option in the Mojo sim. Some others have as well.