Amplification for a Yamaha CP88 stage piano

[marksi]

Hello,

 

I'm looking for an amplification system for my Yamaha CP88. After much research, it seems that speakers like the Yamaha DBR, DXR or QSC might be the way to go, but am interested in more feedback before I invest. My budget is around $1600. I'm mainly interested in using the acoustic piano sounds. I've tried the Roland KC 550, and although it sounded OK for organ/synth sounds, the acoustic sounds come out "boxey." I've noticed the same with a pair of Electro-Voice speakers used in a PA system. I play with other acoustic instruments, like violin, clarinet, cello, an acoustic guitar, some percussion, so am really trying to sound as acoustic and clear as possible. I don't need a lot of power, as the other instruments are not amplified. I'm looking for quality and clarity of sound, which will bring out the harmonics of the digital piano samples. Any suggestions?

[The Piano Man]

I would add the EV ZXa1 to your list. I know you mentioned a boxy sound with a pair of EVs but I am assuming they were an older line or a more budget line.

 

 

Oh and in terms of the boxy sound from a Roland KC, that is exactly as they sound. Rough and ready. Useful for some purposes but rarely particularly pleasant for piano.

[Kurzfan]

I also was impressed by RCF TT-08 (mark I) but finally went with Bose S1 Pro on my Yamaha CP4. Totally happy with my choice.

[Dave Keys]

I’m using a single Yamaha DXR10 at the moment with the CP88. This is for solo piano in Wedding venues like churches chapels, plus hotels and restaurants . It’s more than loud enough, but I do sometimes wonder whether for stereo reasons it might be worth adding a second slave speaker - whatever the non amplified version of the DXR10 is.  

[ElmerJFudd]

5 hours ago, Dave Keys said:

I’m using a single Yamaha DXR10 at the moment with the CP88. This is for solo piano in Wedding venues like churches chapels, plus hotels and restaurants . It’s more than loud enough, but I do sometimes wonder whether for stereo reasons it might be worth adding a second slave speaker - whatever the non amplified version of the DXR10 is.  

Can the DXR10 drive a second speaker and separate L and R between them? 
 

I don’t think so.  At least not from the link out.  
 

 

from the manual you need a second DXR10.  But yes.  You can choose to run it in Stereo or in L+R.  

[DroptopBroham]

Depends on what your using it for but if you are just playing at your house a pair of 8 or 10 inch monitors would be the way to go. But if you are gigging and using it for your main sound it's hard to go wrong with the newer Roland KC's, I made the jump and they are fantastic. The KC600 and 400 sound so much better than the previous iterations it's scary.

 

There were two issues with the older Roland models, they sounded boomy and they sounded a stuffy/boxy. Also a lot of people were just using one of them. For acoustic piano you want to use two KC400's stereo linked, you can thank me later.  And don't forget to engage the Shape button, works magic. The KC600 is still a little bass heavy for acoustic piano and too large and heavy to run in stereo which is important for AP.

 

For years I ran PPA's from ElectroVoice to JBL and they did sound good, better than the keyboard amps at the time for AP but were lacking punch and body for synth, organ and EP's.  With the new KC series you've got the best of both worlds, amazing clarity and definition for AP and the body, weight, and punch for synths, organs and EP's. Not to mention they are louder and project more than the PPA speakers ever did, if you need that. Plus you get amazing connectivity with all the inputs and mic input on line one.

 

Like I said for AP's two KC400's in stereo is the ticket. If you are playing mostly synth, organ, and EP's a single KC600 is the way to go. I've run two setups, a KC600 for cover band gigs where AP is maybe 10% of what I play and a stereo KC400 setup where AP is like 60% and EP 40% for the jazz group. I'm much happier with the KC's than I was with my PPA setup. The only advantage the PPA's have at this point is their lower weight.

[The Piano Man]

Everything from RCF TT, QSC, Yam DXR, EV ZX and even some Bose and Roland KC fans! I guess it goes to show that you have to try things out for yourself and let your own ears decide! 

[Stokely]

The "boxy sound" from an amp may be partly the amp but partly just having to go mono.  That describes how most if not all stereo sampled pianos sound in mono.  We've had that discussion many times before...some folks even use just one output instead of the combined L+R for that reason.

Not sure the pianos are the same on that keyboard as my Modx, but the Modx pianos are some of the worst I've encountered in that regard.  The CFX samples at any rate (which are my choice if I can go stereo).  AnotherScott advised trying the s700 samples for mono.

If I use just one speaker, not pleasing.  But if I'm not using my IEMs, I often do use just one, because I like to monitor what FOH is getting.   In the 12 years our band has been playing, not once has a sound company been using stereo.  It's one of the questions I always ask, as I'm prepared to do it if they are.   To be fair, that's probably 1 gig out of 6 or 7 at most, we usually use our own PA.  And we are pretty small potatoes, so that might make a difference.

If I was in a position where my "amps" (or speakers) were providing the sound to both me and the audience, I'd probably use a second one...though the thought of that kind of volume hitting me is not a nice one....   Not for "stereo sound" but just to get rid of the boxy phasing that you get with piano, and some other patches if you are not careful--often due to whatever fx they put on them.

[Reezekeys]

I can't see spending >$1400 on two Roland KCs for stereo because you're paying for an extra "front end" with all those inputs & controls that you really don't need. Not to mention they're each close to 50 lbs. The last time I carried ~100 lbs of amplification to my gigs was almost 15 years ago. That's when I switched from Mackie SRM450s to QSC K8s. I cut my schlep weight in half then. A year ago I cut the weight in half again by getting the Alto TX308s; 12 lbs and 350 watts each. They don't replace my QSCs but are fine for gigs where I don't need a lot of volume.

 

8 hours ago, marksi said:

After much research, it seems that speakers like the Yamaha DBR, DXR or QSC might be the way to go,

 

My advice is to follow your instincts because you've determined the right "way to go." You won't go wrong with any of those, though some may be better than others with specific pianos. I can't speak to that since I don't use the CP88, but if Dave Ferris says the DXR8 is the one, you can take it to the bank. I do know you want two speakers for stereo, and I also know that for a more natural sound you'll probably need to roll off low end, or notch the low-mids. I hope the CP88 has some EQ controls that let you do that. If all you're playing is piano, forget a mixer and cable directly to the speakers. I've been doing this for almost 25 years and it works fine, though some on this forum disagree. I see no point in carrying extra pieces of gear and cables if you don't need to. Good luck!

[ElmerJFudd]

A few forumites have also had positive experience with a MotionSound 610S or now SX with acoustic piano at reasonable volumes in small ensembles.   For accompanying acoustic - flute, sax a 408SX would also do the job.  You don’t need a lot of power for this purpose.  Just a sound you’re happy with (stereo is going to sound better) and dispersion.  
 

If it’s for home use a pair of 6.5 or 8” studio monitors on stands might be the way to go.  

[SMcD]

Watching this thread closely, as I have a 14-year-old Traynor K4 that's just begging to be replaced. Some combination of "suitably powerful", "reasonably light", and "mono-friendly" would be ideal.

 

On the mono point, I do a lot of gigging where it's just easier to run keys in mono. Anyone have any success running a stereo DP patch to a DI with the "180" button engaged? In theory that should kill the "boxiness" from phase cancellation, but I suspect an opposite problem of unnatural frequency boosting could occur.

[U.Honey]

37 minutes ago, SMcD said:

 

On the mono point, I do a lot of gigging where it's just easier to run keys in mono. Anyone have any success running a stereo DP patch to a DI with the "180" button engaged? In theory that should kill the "boxiness" from phase cancellation, but I suspect an opposite problem of unnatural frequency boosting could occur.

To get phase cancellation you'd have to start with stereo and then merge to mono. Where in the signal chain do you merge the stereo signal to mono? 

 

[drawback]

12 hours ago, marksi said:

I play with other acoustic instruments, like violin, clarinet, cello, an acoustic guitar, some percussion, so am really trying to sound as acoustic and clear as possible. I don't need a lot of power, as the other instruments are not amplified. I'm looking for quality and clarity of sound, which will bring out the harmonics of the digital piano samples.

I recently took a chance on a Roland KC-220 for just this purpose and was pleasantly surprised. 

[ElmerJFudd]

54 minutes ago, SMcD said:

Watching this thread closely, as I have a 14-year-old Traynor K4 that's just begging to be replaced. Some combination of "suitably powerful", "reasonably light", and "mono-friendly" would be ideal.

 

On the mono point, I do a lot of gigging where it's just easier to run keys in mono. Anyone have any success running a stereo DP patch to a DI with the "180" button engaged? In theory that should kill the "boxiness" from phase cancellation, but I suspect an opposite problem of unnatural frequency boosting could occur.

I for the longest time have used one PA speaker with digital slab for gigs.  In most cases the L+R mono still sounds better to me than just L or just R.  It is rare for the keyboard manufacturers to provide a really good sounding mono sample library in my experience.  
 

With the CP88 I’ve used EV ELX200-10P.  It’s a very good monitor. However I do not like the way it hypes the upper frequencies on the CP88 CFX.  I actually prefer the sound of my Mackie SRM350 10” monitor for the CFX.    
 

I am looking to switch to a stereo pair at some point.  And the most likely candidate is the DXR8 on short poles.  

However the column speakers like, the Bose L1-Pro8 for example, are interesting.  I wouldn’t want to carry and setup two. I’m not sure how they sound in mono with a stereo piano sample library.  It would be great if the way they point the tiny drivers in various directions that a stereo image could be created in a sweet spot of where it’s setup. 

[Stokely]

I might be wrong, but I don't think the mono sounding good or bad has much to do with the speakers/amp (though the ability to combine might be).   Put my Nord Stage or Modx in mono, and it sounds bad out of the headphones along with anywhere else.

I mean, it's doable, so not to overblow it.  Many patches don't change much at all.   But definitely worse with pianos.

And yes going mono makes everything simpler across the board.  I'm heading in that direction.  I already have to make sure patches work in mono, so might as well just leave it that way all the time...

I have the DXR10, I see above that the DXR8 was mentioned.  They weren't that different in size and weight so I went with the 10.   I have only used it 3 or 4 times as I'm usually IEMs but when I need it, I need it!   I like the fact that the Yamaha cover can stay on the speaker while in use.   

[stoken6]

Would $1600 buy you a single TT08 (assuming you can tolerate mono)?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CHarrell]

Glad people are having good experiences, my time with the CP88 and my Spacestation have been...unpleasant. Very boxy sounding, but when I use the CP as an audio interface for software such as Ravenscroft or Keyscape, those pianos sound really good coming out of the Spacestation.

[cassdad]

Well, as I previously stated in other threads on this forum, I’ve been very pleased with my new Motion Sound KP-612SX.  One unit, self-contained mixer, and stereo (angled out left and right), and it has casters so I wheel it in and out.

 

[Full disclosure, I’ve also added its matching extension “slave” cabinet, the Motion Sound SL512, and IMO it’s phenomenal.]

 

But the KP-612SX is fine by itself for all but the loudest rock and roll band, IMO.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

Well, as I previously stated in other threads on this forum, I’ve been very pleased with my new Motion Sound KP-612SX.  One unit, self-contained mixer, and stereo (angled out left and right), and it has casters so I wheel it in and out.

 

[Full disclosure, I’ve also added its matching extension “slave” cabinet, the Motion Sound SL512, and IMO it’s phenomenal.]

 

But the KP-612SX is fine by itself for all but the loudest rock and roll band, IMO.

Holy sh*t, that has to be loud as f&ck!  🎸

 

I never have a need for that much firepower.  I just monitor myself and let the sound engineer worry about mains.  Or the setting is small and the acoustic instruments aren’t amplified.  And if they need a little boost, just a channel on my monitor will do. 

[ElmerJFudd]

25 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

Just to refresh the OP's usage.

 

Personally I'd like to be in musical situations where the internal speakers of the P-515 (or any quality DP with internal speakers)  would suffice. But that would pretty much rule out playing with drums, unless he/she was very technically proficient using brushes.

Even so, the body of the sound and its dispersion with the internal speakers on an instrument like the P-515 (which is a very nice slab dp) is no where near a Steinway D, U1/3 or even the Avant Grand.  That’s why you went with a pair of TT08s. 

[jarrell]

18 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

A pair of EV ZXa1 sound okay with piano and especially since they weigh only 18lbs each!

  Paid $1000 for the pair.

That's what I use for smaller, more acoustic gigs, and they sound much better than OK - flat response, great for acoustic piano, and the weight is an added bonus. Highly recommended!

[dazzjazz]

After using DXR10s for years, I upgraded to the DZR10. The difference is night and day. Better components and a wooden cabinet make all the difference. I urge you to try one out. 

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

After using DXR10s for years, I upgraded to the DZR10. The difference is night and day. Better components and a wooden cabinet make all the difference. I urge you to try one out. 

Wooden cabinets sound so much nicer.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

The OP's budget will do one DZR. I'm sure it's night and day in sound quality - it's also night and day in cost & schlep factor. Funny how that works!

[ElmerJFudd]

Unfortunately the DZR doesn’t come in an 8 and the 10 is also 39.5lbs (plus its expense at $1279.99 per).  I have no doubt it is a marked improvement over other models. Like the TT08. That’s a financial commitment for a pair. 

[Reezekeys]

I probably says something about me that I'm cool with my $139 Alto TX308s, but I have to be honest: for low-to-medium volume gigs when I'm in the zone playing, the deficiencies of the Altos disappear; I'm focusing on the music. There's a certain minimum level of sound quality I require, of course - I can't use a speaker that audibly clips or has pronounced deviations in frequency response. I'm well aware these low-end speakers don't do it like the higher-priced spreads, but I'm OK with this because after decades of humping gear to gigs, the schlep factor keeps looming larger! It all depends on which way the scale tips when you weigh the factors of cost, weight and sound. I'm at the point where "good enough" is good enough! 🙂 I also take comfort in that I have my QSCs for those gigs where I feel the Altos might not cut it.

 

I don't think these Altos would work for me without a major advantage of a tablet, phone, or laptop rig: the ability to have multi-band EQs on every instrument channel and master bus, which helps compensate for some of the deficiencies of these plastic speakers; I've put a fair amount of time in tweaking those settings. That's not going to make them sound like RCFs or L-Acoustics, but it helps enough so that when I'm playing, I'm thinking of the sound of the music, not the speakers.

[Stokely]

Argh tough to hear the DZR talk now that I have the DXR   

I can't/won't use it on the majority of our gigs or otherwise would have looked at this or those RCF tts probably.   I'm simply too close to the damn drums most of the time and have to cover up with in-ears (which to be fair do have some plusses beyond volume mitigation).   I got blasted with crashes and snares one too many times and it's just not an option moving forward.

For the amount I do use it I'm sure I could have gone with something like those Altos and been fine, but I had the budget.  I'm still holding out hope that our drummer gets an e-kit  

[marksi]

wow! thanks for all the helpful comments so far! This forum is really helpful. Lots to think about...and try out, of course. I was wondering about the mono option. For example, investing in one to start out with. The DZR really jumps up in price from the DXRs. A friend of mine just lent me a couple of Yamaha DBR10s which I'm going to use for a gig next week. That'll give me a good idea, but would really like to check out the DXRs and QSCs sometime soon. 

[bill bosco]

12 hours ago, Stokely said:

Argh tough to hear the DZR talk now that I have the DXR   

I can't/won't use it on the majority of our gigs or otherwise would have looked at this or those RCF tts probably.   I'm simply too close to the damn drums most of the time and have to cover up with in-ears (which to be fair do have some plusses beyond volume mitigation).   I got blasted with crashes and snares one too many times and it's just not an option moving forward.

For the amount I do use it I'm sure I could have gone with something like those Altos and been fine, but I had the budget.  I'm still holding out hope that our drummer gets an e-kit  

i may be the odd man out on this , but i had a DZR10 for a week . was expecting to be blown away , i wanted to like it , but in the end ,  my MS 610 souded better and warmer , even the APs in my MODX 7 were better , and  it was not just the difference between mono and stereo . so , the DZR got returned . the 610 is a nice little amp , I imagine

the 612 is even better but the smaller cab suits my needs 

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Following this thread...while I don't have a CP88, I'm still currently gigging Yamaha boards with the CFX sample, and recently lost my trusty old MSR-100 speaker to a gig casualty, so I'm down to a single EV ELX200-10p. I'm undecided if I want to get a second of those and call it good, or move to a different model since I'm still not totally in love with the mid-focused sound of the ELX as much. It's a fantastic live monitor - just not sure it's the way I want to go with my sound system for solo piano gigs.