Amplification for a Yamaha CP88 stage piano

[The Piano Man]

Stage pianos are funny things to amplify/monitor for live gigging. If we take Elton John as an example, the sound he uses live is not the most natural, piano sound. It is the right sound to cut over his band. I can see why older S700 samples are recommended over CFX etc for Yamaha. In the same way, I still use old Technics stage pianos live as they cut the way I need. Likewise, rough and ready monitors like Roland KC can work in some purposes. Ultimately, as always, you have to trial and get the setup that works for you. For most scenarios, the audience will be happy if you’re happy and they are less concerned about the piano sample and monitor choice. 

[D. Gauss]

6 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

 If we take Elton John as an example, the sound he uses live is not the most natural, piano sound. It is the right sound to cut over his band.  

compression. I only ever saw Elton live once. It was at a private party we snuck into on the French Riviera during the Cannes film festival and we were a few bottles of wine into it so i don't remember much. HOWEVER, (and i'd imagine his live sound is similar), if you want "the Elton sound" they supposedly used on rock tracks in the studio, do this to your piano track. they used hardware, plugins will sorta do it, too  (caveat being that you're probably not Elton):

 

first- LA2a limiter (waves, UAD all make one). set it so there's like 10db-12db of gain reduction. lotsa squash.

 

2nd- after the limiter, add a pultec eq-1a. (again many plugin versions, some better than others). set the hi band to 10k with the width/Q fully broad and boost level dimed full.  set the low band to 100 and boost level between 2 and 3.

 

3rd- rock out and adjust to taste.  just make sure you're listening in the context of everything else playing and not in solo.

[Stokely]

I like compression on piano (sometimes) when mixing, and I understand why live engineers will put it on keys, but if you have your monitoring set up so that you are hearing it, it can be distracting.   This has happened to me when I have my keys coming back in the main aux feed, I have heard--and felt--compression to the point where the attack and the body of say a piano almost sound like two separate hits.    After a few times where this happened I worked it out so that if desired I could always monitor keys pre-FOH even if I had control of my in-ear mix.   

It may be possible as well to have your aux signals come from pre-insert, but I think usually it is post.

There's also the potential issue that someone brought up before that if you are going to boost for say a solo, this might be an issue with compression (definitely with limiting) but it depends on where the compression is.  If boosting after the compression, no problem.  If before, you are now going way over the threshold and you might not get much or any extra volume, just more squashed.  Obviously the ratio and other settings come into play along with the signal flow.

All very relevant to me because it's a constant struggle to maintain patch volumes from song to song and venue to venue   I'm the only one in the band with more than 2 or 3 "patches"--and I'll even throw in a singer working the mic and drummer dynamics as a "patch"!--so they all have it easy!    But getting a bit off-topic, apologies for that...back to the cp amplification.

[The Piano Man]

Elton sound = Roland MKS20 plus Yamaha Motif Rack (formerly Alesis Nanopiano) plus great sound engineers and an excellent musician! 

[RalphF]

Great timing on this article.  I usually start thinking about what Santa might bring me around this time every year.  It usually takes 2-3 weeks to settle on something but i think I know RN. Bose S1 pro speaker to go along with my Yanama MSP5. or maybe replace it altogether?  Thanks! 

[stoken6]

21 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

Elton sound = Roland MKS20 plus Yamaha Motif Rack

Layered?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Piano Man]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

Layered?

 

Cheers, Mike.

Yes. There is a clip on YouTube of his soundman doing some pre gig checks. It shows a mixing desk with two stereo channels for the “acoustic” piano sound, one named “Roland” and one named “Yamaha”. I think the MKS gives the main basis of the sound (same as RD1000 as used by Elton for many years). The Yamaha gives the required “cut” or brightness for the live sound.

 

His current setup may well vary but I believe that is the basic foundation. 

[stoken6]

Thanks @The Piano Man I would have thought the MKS has more than enough cut on its own. If anything, it needs something more realistic (say, a Yamaha module?) to complement it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Piano Man]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

Thanks @The Piano Man I would have thought the MKS has more than enough cut on its own. If anything, it needs something more realistic (say, a Yamaha module?) to complement it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

You’re quite right. Yeh, I guess the Yamaha adds the realism whilst the Roland has the body. I just meant that, to me, the Roland is lacking the bright percussive sound that cuts through and that’s where I viewed the Yamaha as having a key role to balance the sound.

[Koenraad]

Hi,

 

I am also a CP88 user, mainly for acoustic piano in a jazz combo. I am struggling for years with amplification. Currently i am using a HK nano 605 fx portable system but i am very unhappy with the sound. I was looking for a very portable system but i must admit to say that "very portable" and "good sound" don't match...  It sound so thin and isn't powerfull enough for cutting through when we play with full kwintet (dr, p, ts, voc, bs). I was thinking on changing to a couple of yam DXR8 or 10s. What do you gys think, will a couple of DXR8s already be an upgrade to my HK nano 605 system or should i go for the DXR10s? 

 

Regards,

 

Koenraad

[Kurzfan]

Yamaha CP4 with a pair of Bose S1 Pro, …nice…but I keep tweaking the equalizer depending on the acoustics in the venue

[LilyM]

I spent an afternoon in my local music store a few months back demoing all the 12” powered speakers with a CP88.

 

The Yamaha DZR12s which I was very interested in I eliminated immediately. It came down to EV EKX12 and QSC K2.2. The EVs were much smoother across the full range of the piano  but it seemed like the QSCs had a slightly tighter bottom end. I went with the EVs, I use them on stage and don’t have any issue with the bottom end like I thought I heard in the store. Not a big EV fan in any way but love these.

 

 I will say our bass player has the QSC KW122s and lets me use them now and and that is by far the best for me but much heavier and more expensive.

[Dave Ferris]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:27 AM, Koenraad said:

I am also a CP88 user, mainly for acoustic piano in a jazz combo.

 

What do you gys think, will a couple of DXR8s already be an upgrade to my HK nano 605 system or should i go for the DXR10s?

 

Koenraad, I can recommend the DXR8mk2s. I used them and the QSC K8.2s for almost a year, both with my P-515 and CP88.

 

Both were excellent - with the P515, I'd maybe give a slight edge to the Yamahas for a more round tone. Conversely, the QSC K8.2s seemed to make the CP88 CFX sample sound more alive and pop with the rhythm section. But I don't think you could go wrong with either speaker. It's very very close.

 

I eventually went for the gold with the newer RCF TT-08A mk2s for the increased detail and hi-fidelity. I sold both pairs of speakers literally what I paid for them and got a great price on the RCFs. I've been very happy the last 9 months with the CP88, the JMK Audio JM-110 and TT-08A mk2 combo.

 

In a true acoustic jazz type context, where the keyboard is trying best to mimic an acoustic grand, a 10" speaker (or larger) can easily smother, or overwhelm, an acoustic bass, as well as a smaller jazz kit with an 18" bass drum.

 

On the other hand if you are playing in larger rooms, and you are running piano, vocals, and sax through them in a foh application, I could see using the DXR10mk2s, or QSC K10.2s. Otherwise just for your own monitoring, the DXR8mk2s or QSC K8.2s all the way.

 

A fwiw, the DXR8mk2's cabinet design precludes them from being used in a wedge/ floor monitor position, where the QSC K8.2s do the wedge position. I set my Yamahas on short Yorkville speaker poles or 13" folding steps. The K8.2s worked great on the short Yorkville speaker stands.

[cassdad]

19 hours ago, LilyM said:

I spent an afternoon in my local music store a few months back demoing all the 12” powered speakers with a CP88.

 

The Yamaha DZR12s which I was very interested in I eliminated immediately. It came down to EV EKX12 and QSC K2.2. The EVs were much smoother across the full range of the piano  but it seemed like the QSCs had a slightly tighter bottom end. I went with the EVs, I use them on stage and don’t have any issue with the bottom end like I thought I heard in the store. Not a big EV fan in any way but love these.

 

 I will say our bass player has the QSC KW122s and lets me use them now and and that is by far the best for me but much heavier and more expensive.

 

Why did you “eliminate” the Yamaha DZR12s?

[LilyM]

On 4/27/2024 at 3:12 PM, cassdad said:

 

Why did you “eliminate” the Yamaha DZR12s?

Man I know it’s subjective but I just didn’t like the sound of the piano out of that speaker at all. I was just testing  the piano sound. But also it was just uneven across the frequency range of the piano.

[D. Gauss]

16 hours ago, LilyM said:

Man I know it’s subjective but I just didn’t like the sound of the piano out of that speaker at all. I was just testing  the piano sound. But also it was just uneven across the frequency range of the piano.

 

Curious. Was it set to flat? All those Yamahas have those selectable preset curves for "FOH" and "Floor Monitor", etc.  Some of those are super severe. e.g. no bass, all treble.

[Reezekeys]

17 hours ago, LilyM said:

I just didn’t like the sound of the piano out of that speaker at all

 

"That speaker" implies singular, as in stereo piano samples summed to mono coming out one speaker. That does not bode well for the sound.

[Delaware Dave]

30 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

"That speaker" implies singular, as in stereo piano samples summed to mono coming out one speaker. That does not bode well for the sound.

Reezekeys FTW ...

[LilyM]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

"That speaker" implies singular, as in stereo piano samples summed to mono coming out one speaker. That does not bode well for the sound.

Agreed. While sending a stereo feed to FOH, I use a single speaker/ monitor on stage so that’s what I was testing for. However the other speakers all sounded much better than the DZRs in that scenario. And yes I did run through the basic “presets” to try and get the best sound out of each. Sorry, I’m actually a pretty dedicated Yamaha user and had high hopes for the DZRs but just didn’t like them.