Is there a list of common organ drawbar settings for common songs?

[Dockeys]

This question keeps coming up in keyboard corner but I never tire of reading the replies. There are so many players here from so many diverse musical backgrounds that I learn something new each time it’s asked. I’ve asked it myself so I’m always happy to return the favour as well as seeing what others think.
 

Yes, ears are a crucial part of the learning process but I’ve found my students all learn in so many different ways, some visually, some aurally, some have ways unique to themselves. Sometimes I’ll get them to use their ears whilst others work better with a specific roadmap or a nudge in a certain direction. I hope the op gets some value from the responses. 

[CEB]

I may or may not post something tonight regarding my Hammond education.  There are some fundamental things you need to know but they mostly relate to playing a twin manual organ. It’s not rocket science and can be learned through experimentation.  Things like how  different registrations sound the same depending on where the hands are located … not pulling the 16’ and 8’ out too far on the base so you can hear the top manual on your solos ect …

 

The basic gist of a post if I do one will be how little time Darel spent teaching me drawbar stuff compared to learning how not to play the thing like a damn piano. 😀. But I was 18 and had been studying piano since I was 6.     But I will check out the thread. I may have nothing worth adding. 

[Baldwin Funster]

Keep in mind specific drawbar settings that a real B player uses on a song with his real leslie doesn't always and frequently doesn't translate to clones 1 to 1. The bass can be too boomy on the clone. The highs can be too shrill or otherwise strident on the clone. And what speakers you are using affect the perception of these factors as well. Studio monitors? Stage monitors? Any other type of monitors? These will all make you cringe at extreme settings if some note pops out twice as loud as it should be.

[CEB]

Yes. Until the SKx … I very rarely pulled straight 8’s.  Even with real Leslies.  The XK3c and earlier digital organs were harsh. Jimmy’s tonewheel set helped but it was still harsher than my consoles.   The digital organs keep getting better. 

[mate stubb]

To put Steve's point in perspective: I think some of us older players feel a bit like we are the last generation of organists, and it becomes our duty to try to pass on what we have learned by encouraging newer players to spend a bit of time at it. With the instrument disappearing from pop and other modern music, players might use organ only occasionally. 

 

I have great love for Hammond and it is my preferred instrument. I mourn its decline. Thank goodness for gospel!

[Baldwin Funster]

Younger people today are taught to ask for help instead of learning things the hard way like doing their own research or woodshedding things alone so you have your individual style. I see it all over the music forums and before about 10 years ago it wasn't like that.

I'm not saying the OP is like this or which way is right, although I lean heavily myself on woodshedding with records (or streaming vids)  or turning knobs on my gear until I've tried everything before going to webtown for advice.

That's for music though. As for installing a 220v breaker in my shop or learning to do a tonsil job with a grapefruit knife I will turn to a youtube vid almost immediately. 

[MathOfInsects]

This IS someone doing their own research. They want to get better. They turned to the experts. They're not generally asking for anything other than how to understand something they haven't got a clue about, and ain't none of them coming for our gigs, and if they do, we shouldn't flatter ourselves that it's because we told them about the secret chord that David played and pleased the lord.

"Go away and get better."

"OK, but how do I get better?"

"What, are we supposed to give you all the answers? Take some initiative."

"THAT'S WHAT I WAS DOING BUT YOU TOLD ME TO GO AWAY."

[Old No7]

Wow, you know what's really sad...

 

* 3 weeks ago this forum was busting on Lachy Doley

 

* 2 weeks ago this forum was busting on Paul Shaffer

 

* 1 week ago this forum was busting on poor Lachy again

 

* And with this posting, we have TURNED ON OURSELVES

 

The OP does use his ears, will spend time to experiment and was just looking for some simple guidance on drawbar settings to help expedite his learning and experience curve...

 

Is that really such a BAD thing ? ? ?

 

I think not.

 

Old No7

[SamuelBLupowitz]

17 hours ago, mate stubb said:

To put Steve's point in perspective: I think some of us older players feel a bit like we are the last generation of organists, and it becomes our duty to try to pass on what we have learned by encouraging newer players to spend a bit of time at it. 

A great way to ensure the death of an instrument, or a style of music, is to dismiss inquisitive minds when they ask for help. I owe my continued musical life to more experienced players willing to share what they've learned with me.

 

"Get off my lawn" helps no one.

[stoken6]

15 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Younger people today are taught to ask for help instead of learning things the hard way

This statement allowed my thinking/opinion to crystallise: "Asking for help" is not an alternative to "learning things the hard way". It can be a way to "learn better". 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Just now, stoken6 said:

This statement allowed my thinking/opinion to crystallise: "Asking for help" is not an alternative to "learning things the hard way". It can be a way to "learn better". 

 

Cheers, Mike.

Agreed, Mike. I fail to see how asking for help is somehow a weakness rather than a sign of curiosity and commitment. That's some gatekeepy nonsense, and not grounded in any sort of educational basis. "I had to struggle so you should too," again, helps no one.

[jerrythek]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:17 PM, kpl1228 said:

I'd love to know the settings for Allmans, Geils, Booker T, etc etc etc. Playing around and discovering it is fun, but I'd love a list!

Anyone know of a source for this? It's gotta be out there somewhere.

I wasn't knocking or attacking the OP, but when I read the above quote, my first thought was "have you even looked yet?" If they had said, "I've been searching the web and found a lot of sites, but I'd love to know if the experts here can say which are better, or more likely correct" I would have responded differently. And now, to the OP I say - enjoy the info you've gotten and enjoy the journey you're on!

[Baldwin Funster]

21 minutes ago, jerrythek said:

I wasn't knocking or attacking the OP, but when I read the above quote, my first thought was "have you even looked yet?" If they had said, "I've been searching the web and found a lot of sites, but I'd love to know if the experts here can say which are better, or more likely correct" I would have responded differently. And now, to the OP I say - enjoy the info you've gotten and enjoy the journey you're on!

I guess I come from a generation that taught real men don't ask for help unless you got a broken leg and can't get up the stairs. 

So when I constantly see the same plea for help on forums asking for the same info as the last post on something like "somebody choose my first synth" I pass on by thinking that guy needs to build some character by doing some work.

 

Not attacking to OP. I'm sure I asked what DB setting Benmont used on don't do me like that on this forum before. 

[Threadslayer]

Young guy: "Man I'd love to be able to play like that. Where should I start?"

Old guy: "By paying your dues."

 

Speaking as a former young guy, I would have given my left nut to have the learning resources that young musicians have available today, but I don't begrudge them those tools. 

[MathOfInsects]

There is a huge difference between someone coming here and saying, "I have a covers gig tomorrow, can anyone help with patches and charts on these 27 songs?" and someone who recognizes that they don't know something or don't do it well and want to know how to go about getting better at it. I see how it can feel the same in the moment, but I think we all only gain from people taking what we do seriously enough to want to get better at it from the "inside." 

Can you imagine going to med school and the professors saying, "What are you asking us for, you lazy bastards! If you really want to know you have to go off and operate on a bunch of people or you'll never understand!" I think people can tend to glorify the woodshedding time they've spent at the expense of remembering who cleared the path to the shed. We all have to start somewhere. 

Organ is such a different instrument and many people haven't got the first clue what "starting" would even look like, let alone what then "experimenting" with it would mean. Telling those people to "pull out drawbars"--while not incorrect as a concept for the instrument--is like asking a blind person to point out who mugged them. It's the exact thing they don't know. Nothing about the interface or process means anything to them. The fact that different pitches occur has no context for them. They can't make it mean even enough to know what "starting" would look like. So they're just asking for someone to help get them inside the "gate." The difference between that initial help and "go away kid" is often someone just deciding not to do it all, and that feels like a loss. Might as well get new blood doing it "right," that's best for all of us.

Also, it's worth remembering: the people coming to a forum and asking for direction are not kids who can hone their chops through childhood and high school and hit the ground running as adults. They are grown-ups. Learning is different for grown-ups and often the stakes feel higher, since you already feel so far behind others. We don't do anyone a favor with the "go away kid, I had to struggle and so do you" thing. We do them a favor by removing the barrier between them and getting better. They may never use the thing we show them, but just knowing how even to think about the instrument or what people do with it, is often enough to set people on their own path. From there they can do the thing we're telling them to do, which is buckle down and get their 10K in. 



 

[SMcD]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that nobody here would object to showing a younger cat how to work the drawbars in person (i.e. giving someone a Hammond lesson).

 

Of course, nowadays, it's harder than it used to be to find a more experienced Hammond player to show you the ropes in person. So why should it be any different to talk to them online? I'm glad I learned 8880000000 from the internet. It proved to be an excellent jumping-off point as I taught myself to experiment with the drawbars further.

 

And even the phrase "taught myself" is a bit misleading. I learned a lot from that one John Medeski video. I'm sure nobody here could deny having similar sources of inspiration. No man is an island.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I guess I come from a generation that taught real men don't ask for help unless you got a broken leg and can't get up the stairs. 

So when I constantly see the same plea for help on forums asking for the same info as the last post on something like "somebody choose my first synth" I pass on by thinking that guy needs to build some character by doing some work.

 

Not attacking to OP. I'm sure I asked what DB setting Benmont used on don't do me like that on this forum before. 

Right, no help. You learned how to tie your shoes all by yourself when you were three? You taught yourself English, the multiplication tables, how to ride your own bike, how to drive on public roads?

This is a silly myth that I never understand the premise of. It's weak to want to get great at something and seek out those who are better at it? The weak position would seem to be, "Go away, older, better person, I can do this myself!" The greats of every generation are not afraid to learn, it's what makes them great.

[CEB]

That’s how I got started. Darel DeCounter spent time showing me how to approach the Hammond.   The time focused on drawbars like I said were a small percentage compared to playing technique vs piano technique, use of the swell pedal etc …. My first lesson, I didn’t even know how to turn the thing on. 
 

Every Hammond organist I know can tell you about seeing other bands and instantly recognizing a pianist trying to play organ.  The mechanics are different. 

[ProfD]

The greats news is that one cannot *brake* an organ by pulling and pushing drawbars and turning the C/V knob and using the percussion.🤣 

 

Approach an organ as if it is the 1st analog synthesizer based on sine waves.😉😎

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

Every Hammond organist I know can tell you about seeing other bands and instantly recognizing a pianist trying to play organ.  The mechanics are different. 

The opposite of this is why I don't join bands as a piano player. I started very late on keys and I knew I wouldn't have time to become a skilled organ player AND a skilled piano player both. I loved the hammond sound the most so that's what I do. If someone calls me a piano player I correct them that im organ only usually drawing confused looks.  Everything is a piano to a non musician. If a song comes around that has no organ and the band wants me to play piano I quickly and flatly refuse. 

Organist in the audience won't pick me out as an organ player trying to play piano, they will just call me a slouch.

[Threadslayer]

Now THAT is something you probably won't learn right away on Youtube. I've played both organ and piano in every band I've been in for the past 50 years and at least for me, the context switch is so "organic", that I can't even remember ever thinking about it. It's different, but it's still me, playing a song, in a band, with whatever keyboard happens to be under my hands.

[stoken6]

On 10/18/2023 at 4:46 PM, SMcD said:

jumping-off point

My opinion on this subject summed up in three words. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Real MC]

Drawbars alone won't get every organ sound, not even 888000000.  

 

For starters, Hammond organs sound different from unit to unit due to tonewheel calibration, especially when using higher pitched drawbars.  The calibration process changed over the years too.

 

Pre-B3 models are going to sound different due to different tubes and amplifier design.

 

Leslies and how they are recorded in a studio - that sound can vary all over the place.  Room ambience and placement of Leslie has a major impact.

To cop Deep Purple/Jon Lord's sound, you need to couple an RMI Electric Piano to the Hammond.  No drawbar alone is going to get that sound.

[nadroj]

OP’s gonna realise none of this matters anyways when he’s thrown on a tiny stage with a band so loud that anything not 888888888 doesn’t cut through. 

[stoken6]

11 hours ago, nadroj said:

OP’s gonna realise none of this matters anyways when he’s thrown on a tiny stage with a band so loud that anything not 888888888 doesn’t cut through. 

To take this thread on a little tangent... Jordan's comment is my experience as well. But I find that (admittedly, on my Nord) 888888888 isn't necessarily the loudest. In fact, whatever drawbar registration I use, I'm still too quiet. The best cure I've found is to crank the distortion (which introduces higher-order harmonics, of course), not necessarily desirable in all styles.

 

So any shared experience on how to help organ cut on a loud stage would be of interest.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[Old No7]

4 hours ago, stoken6 said:

So any shared experience on how to help organ cut on a loud stage would be of interest.

 

Looks like 'ol Jethro found a solution!  That's quite a stack!

 

Old No7

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

This light reading on the theory of the drawbar settings might be of some help:

 

http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/hammond_drawbar_science.html

[SMcD]

16 hours ago, The Real MC said:

Drawbars alone won't get every organ sound, not even 888000000.  

 

For starters, Hammond organs sound different from unit to unit due to tonewheel calibration, especially when using higher pitched drawbars.  The calibration process changed over the years too.

 

Pre-B3 models are going to sound different due to different tubes and amplifier design.

 

Leslies and how they are recorded in a studio - that sound can vary all over the place.  Room ambience and placement of Leslie has a major impact.

To cop Deep Purple/Jon Lord's sound, you need to couple an RMI Electric Piano to the Hammond.  No drawbar alone is going to get that sound.

 

A bit OT, but it's because of that "Jon Lord factor" that the lack of an RMI patch for the Hammond SKX is so frustrating. And I haven't seen a downloadable one either.

[analogika]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:13 PM, davinwv said:

I've been playing Hammonds (real ones and clones) for 35 years, but I never learned the technique where you use a certain drawbar setting, then play in a different key than the song is actually in to get a certain sound. I've looked online, and I have never found a great explanation of that (maybe because it isn't the easiest thing to Google?). Does anyone have experience using this technique?

the point here is that every drawbar is a partial (harmonic overtone) of the fundamental note. (Yeah, the leftmost two belong to the subfundamental, bear with me for the sake of the explanation.) 

 

So you have drawbars that are the base note and its octaves (1st drawbar and all the white ones), and the others which are a perfect fifth or a major third above the base note. 
 

If you emphasise those and ease back on the octave partials, you can get the tone to sound like a different pitch (a fifth above the „played“ key: 2nd, fifth, and eighth drawbars, and the 7th drawbar for a third above the base tone). 
 

percussion can be switched in pitch between octave („2nd“) and perfect fifth („3rd“)

[CEB]

I was a loud ass organ player. My organ was always the loudest thing on stage.  However I used large solid stage amps with EVs in the bottom rotors and Atlas PD-60 horn drivers.  My 200 watt low boy is a screamer.