Fitting in with covers of guitar-only songs....

[shniggens]

What do you like to do in situations where your band wants to cover guitar centric songs that contain no keys on the studio recording? For instance, my band wants to do "Fell On Black Days" by Soundgarden, and they want me to stay put and join in. I tend to fall on organ sounds in these situations, but I don't want people getting organ fatigue (so to speak). How do you like to fit in with a guitar heavy song, particularly as a rhythm instrument?

 

Keep in mind, I'm talking about fitting in WITH guitar players. Assume there is at least one guitar player in the band.

[Anderton]

22 minutes ago, shniggens said:

How do you like to fit in with a guitar heavy song, particularly as a rhythm instrument?

 

Well, you're going to have a hard part doing the intro. But once you hit the section with the chords, this tip might give you some ideas. 

 

The important part to remember about doing guitar chords on keyboard is you need really basic sounds. A guitar note is just a sine wave with a bunch of harmonics and often, a sine wave will give the best results when creating chords. Then, put what you play through an amp sim to get "that" sound. Also note that often, guitar players use certain chord shapes for rhythm parts. If you have the option to play chords with a single key, you can program these shapes and sound more or less like a guitar player hitting chords. 

 

Guitar voicings are different, too. Compare an E major chord on guitar to what you would play on keyboard:

 

 

I think the bottom line is that if your singer, bass player, and drummer can do the song, you can slip in there with enough "guitaristic" sounds to keep the audience happy. If you want to add authenticity, you could always make a "guitar face," hit on someone's girlfriend, or turn up your amp louder than everyone else's 🤣

 

[shniggens]

Sorry, I'm not replacing the guitars, just fitting in with them. I edited my original post.

[jazzpiano88]

24 minutes ago, shniggens said:

What do you like to do in situations where your band wants to cover guitar centric songs that contain no keys on the studio recording? For instance, my band wants to do "Fell On Black Days" by Soundgarden, and they want me to stay put and join in. I tend to fall on organ sounds in these situations, but I don't want people getting organ fatigue (so to speak). How do you like to fit in with a guitar heavy song, particularly as a rhythm instrument?

 

I think organ is totally appropriate.   Paul Shaffer made a living doing exactly that for years.   E.g. Under my Thumb. (marimba notwithstanding )

[shniggens]

5 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

I think organ is totally appropriate.   Paul Shaffer made a living doing exactly that for years.   E.g. Under my Thumb. (marimba notwithstanding )

It gets old after awhile. From a playing perspective too. I probably need more Wurly in my life.

[jazzpiano88]

9 minutes ago, shniggens said:

It gets old after awhile. From a playing perspective too. I probably need more Wurly in my life.

 

Well true, mix in the EP, AP as appropriate.

[Anderton]

11 minutes ago, shniggens said:

Sorry, I'm not replacing the guitars, just fitting in with them. I edited my original post.

 

Oh, okay. In that case (and of course this is totally subjective), you can "bulk up" the guitar parts. Guitar players double a lot. Double them using the kind of sounds I mentioned above, and you can make them sound bigger and more powerful. And in tune

 

I often blend keys and guitars. Either sound can be the dominant one, depending on the song and arrangement.

 

 

[David Emm]

I think the right synth pad would do the job, gently applied in the background. Something with a brass or vocal aroma. Notch out the mid-range and singer's basic range so as not to intrude. You can play in the low-mids pretty easily and add nice depth, depending on your band's particular angles.

[MathOfInsects]

I was in a band for years whose first set was almost exclusively E. Guitar tunes. For some I could be an organ player, for some I could drop some bread and butter keys in, but generally speaking--maybe 70% of the time--I played power chords or roots on the organ in the range just above the bass and below the guitar (roughly the octave just below middle C). No leslie, nothing announcing I was there. Just donuts the whole time, changing only when the chords changed. 

[weegeebored]

An organ sound works for many guitar-heavy songs, but a song like Fell On Black Days is a bit of a different animal. I would try what Anderton suggested and use a good guitar patch and try to mimic the chords without dominating the real guitar(s). Two-note power chords would work well.  (You probably wouldn't need to do the bend if it didn't sound right.)  If the band doesn't need a perfect cover you might try a string patch, like a nice cello sound. With that you could just play the root notes during the verse and improvise a little during the bridge and chorus. This approach might only work on an acoustic version but personally I would give it a shot to hear how it sounds with full-on electrics.

 

Fell On Black Days (acoustic)

[KuruPrionz]

Clavinet sounds could work well for some songs and some parts of songs. Piano, vibes or chimes too.

Guitar is a percussion instrument, piano is a percussion instrument. I'm not opposed to organ sounds but they've already been mentioned enough times. 

Harpsichord, strings and horns could also work. 

 

I think musicians worry a lot more about "sounding just like the record" than the public does. I've said this before but your crowd wants a beat/groove they can dance to and the lyrics of the chorus sung clearly so they can sing along. The rest of a song is open to interpretation. 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Sometimes I play very rhythmically more like a percussion player locked with the drums.

Sometimes I play power 5ths like a rhythm guitar player.

If I don't feel like any of the above makes the song better than if I lay out, I play nothing.

If the band doesn't like it they shouldn't pick songs that give me no parts. 

In general I can find something fun to play most of the time.

7ths usually sound good. If someone is playing 7ths, then I'll play 9ths over that. Or vice versa. 

One song I lay out on is Jenny Jenny. Nothing I do makes the song better. So I do an organ sweep at the beginning and that's about it.

[The Real MC]

Doubling guitar parts on keyboards is a role I abhor, it bores me to tears.  One band I was in insisted that I double them on keyboards; I hand-synced with the volume all the way down.  No one noticed it was missing.

[cphollis]

A beefy Rhodes sound can do power chords all night long.  Just make sure it's phat, and doesn't sound like a doorbell.

[Joe Muscara]

Quit. 

[Joe Muscara]

Just kidding, sort of.  I do hate that, yet I appreciate when the band mates really want you to play something on keys and aren’t just ignoring you. But sometimes I have no ideas for keys for the tune. Can’t I just go get a beer and come back for the next song? 

[CEB]

Depends on what the gig pays.  Some gigs I will play guitar.  If the gig doesn’t pay much the I am not going to bring the whole music store.  Some tunes I may just sit out.   I may play the Hammond.  Or do comedic dance moves and sing.  These situations should be few or I’m playing the wrong gig but… if the money is green then it’s all good. 
 

There were tunes in my Pop gig that had no guitar.  Our last guitarist would do dance moves and sing background vocals.  The original guitarist would leave the stage.  

[Stokely]

That's a lot of our songs.  Doesn't bother me much, as it's lets me get creative.  There have been a few songs where keys just don't work well (like Dirty Deeds from AC/DC, I played an overdriven synth bass sparingly  )

Some go-tos:  

• organ, rhodes/wurli and clav.  These can be a "2nd guitar" (for example when we play Molly Hatchet) and they blend well with guitar.
• piano - I pick and choose, sometimes it feels ok (Can't Get Enough), sometimes I don't like the vibe of piano for a song as it doesn't blend like those above.
• strings - this is sorta my go-to for 90s hard rock songs, which we don't do often (usually by request).  If you recall, a lot of bands like Metallica etc would do versions of their tunes with orchestras, that is what I'm shooting for:  big, epic over-the-top orchestra playing with the band   I do this on Basket Case, Higher, Shine and the like.  Usually I keep it low key and build it up for later in the song.

If I ever get back on learning guitar, I'd have plenty of opportunity to pick one up and join in the fun.  I have been bringing a minimal one-keyboard rig out there'd certainly be room for it, I could put a Helix stomp on my pedal board right into my Key Largo and away we go. 

[Threadslayer]

11 hours ago, The Real MC said:

I hand-synced with the volume all the way down.  No one noticed it was missing.

I have done this on occasion, but it gets pretty effing boring too

[CEB]

888800000 and mash the gas. 

[ProfD]

8 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

Quit. 

That is ths 1st response that pops into my head whenever I see these threads.🤣

 

However, I'm mindful that a majority of my fellow forumites play in bands that are guitar-centric.

 

Comping on some type of pad sound would suffice. Find a groove in the song and lay there. 😎

[Ivan May]

I would usually play the guitar riff on a keyboard. There are lots of guitar sound patches on a keyboard, and a lot of them sound scarily like a real guitar.

[Iconoclast]

Old me used to think a driven organ (888000000), and that can be appropriate for some songs, but I find that organ doesn't complement the rhythm that guitars bring to a song and they can take away from the space between the guitars.  So unless I'm going to sit above the guitars and be more above it, maybe ok. Especially if you can mirror something like vocal harmonies in the chorus. 

 

Some quick examples: Think "Stone in Love". No keys in that song but you can back up the vocal parts in the chorus in an organ and it sits in just fine.  The guitar outtro on that song you can do on a cp70 or any chorused piano. Or "You Shook Me All Night Long", an organ would be appropriate for the chorus's up in the vocal ranges above the guitar, but I don't see using an organ during the Verse as it would detract from the rhythm.  "Behind Blue Eyes" a wurli doing some icing during the acoustic parts, but when the drums kick in I do a pretty driven wurly coving the electric rhythm guitar. It has to be right on that rhythm and have some attack so I don't think an organ would work there.

New me is using a dirty dusty wurli  in these cases and much happier. Try to stay away from triads and close 3rds (sometimes they work but I usually look for a different solution) and spread out your voicings.  Usually one note L hand and 2 notes R hand and stay with the rhythm of the song.  Usually keeping everything below A4 (basically the same notes that most guitar rhythm parts come from).

Some of the less bell like Rhodes sounds will work ok and will sit in the same place very well. But again, the voicings become critical and are not typical to piano players.

I've done a whole lot of ZZ top, Cream, the Who etc using the wurli and it doesn't sound cheesy at all. Sounds like it should be there.

I've tried the Jan Hammer thing, but you have to have just the right song and sound. And each guitar player sounds different so if you match a synth tone for one dude it won't exactly work with another dude.

[shniggens]

Great information. Thanks guys!

[Al Quinn]

I was on a gig a few weeks ago where they played Whole Lotta Love. I just stepped away from the stage and listened. I didn’t mind and neither did anyone else.

[Iconoclast]

I also recently discovered that a basic sawtooth poly patch with just a little bit of filter to taste, can fit in with certain guitar songs.

We do WhiteSnake's Love ain't No Stranger and when the guitars kick in, that kind of oberheim brass-ish sawtooth (not completely dis-similar from the infamous Jump patch) actually backs up the guitars nicely and allows you to catch their groove. Again, spacing out your voicings is the key to making this not sound like the Archies trying to cover Metallica.

I use a similar patch to cover Hardline's Hot Cherie (another hair metal kind of song with no keys) and again, I think it fits without being silly.

So yeah, also try a sawtooth poly patch, and spread out your voicings like root in the L hand and the 5/3rd (or 3rd/5th!) in your right or something like that.

It's a challenge sometimes and of course, like Al Quinn, sometime you can just go get a mid-set drink while the guitar stringers wank-on.

[Stokely]

10 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

I was on a gig a few weeks ago where they played Whole Lotta Love. I just stepped away from the stage and listened. I didn’t mind and neither did anyone else.

Yep, that's a great example of a "no room for keys" song IMO.

I use organ a lot but I try to avoid "Deep Purple-izing" every single guitar song.  Obviously the choices like this are completely subjective.

Someone mentioned zz top, I either play electric piano or sawtooth synth depending on the song.  Their album with Sharp Dressed Man (which we do) has synth all over it, while older stuff like Thank You and Cheap Sunglasses the epiano sounds more fitting.

Speaking of Stone in Love, I noticed J. Cain doing some guitar on some tunes live (not sure about that one specifically).  That is my intention, but first I actually need to practice and while standing up (what a rude shock to realize just how different playing guitar is when you aren't sitting down!)

I realize this all sounds horrifying to some keys players but I like the challenge.  I can happily go all night with one or two solos (or zero) but I like finding the "glue" for songs (on keys or harmonies, I'm really good at those tough lower harmonies) and the band really appreciates it.  I still get plenty of chances to shine on synth and keys heavy songs too.  For a while when my kids were little and then later during covid, I wasn't playing so they went without keys, so that sort of worsened the guitar-centric situation.  Now that I'm doing every gig, when we add new songs I certainly make a point to make sure there is room for keys and I'm not shy about bringing it up    In fact, we'll be adding "Drive" by the Cars and I'm not sure there's any guitar on that, take that!  (always room to add some of course, whether some ambient synth-ish stuff to help me out or something else).

[RABid]

I suggest listening to Three Dog Night - Live at the Forum over and over and over. This is how I learned to play rhythm organ. Play organ and own it on most songs. Occasionally switch to ep, clav or strings. But organ 90% of the time.

[Delaware Dave]

23 hours ago, CEB said:

Depends on what the gig pays....

 

???

[time4jazz]

In guitar-based cover bands, I sometimes think the guitarists want the keyboardist to play a role similar to the sound guy: make the guitars sound good and otherwise stay the hell out of the way.