Rumors: Yamaha Montage successor

[DeltaJockey]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

And to be sure, poly AT is not the main reason I'd buy a Montage.

Well, I for one, would have purchased the new Montage anyway. My decision to buy it wasn't tipped by the PAT. It is a nice feature though, and I find I am playing around with it more than I thought I would. I was in fact, particularly interested in their hybrid action sensor design applied to a synth, and the fact that they might upgrade or modify functionality in the future with software updates. There are many other reasons I decided to upgrade too.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, DeltaJockey said:

Well, I for one, would have purchased the new Montage anyway. My decision to buy it wasn't tipped by the PAT. It is a nice feature though, and I find I am playing around with it more than I thought I would. I was in fact, particularly interested in their hybrid action sensor design applied to a synth, and the fact that they might upgrade or modify functionality in the future with software updates. There are many other reasons I decided to upgrade too.

The addition of a programmable polyphonic VA and the attention it is likely to get from third party patch  programmers (due to it being a major Yamaha product) is enough to catch my eye. 
 

I’m sure easysounds is studying the AN-X engine right now.  https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-synthesizer/yamaha-montage-m-premium-series/?p=1

[jazzpiano88]

4 hours ago, Artomas said:

5 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I think that describes a lot of people.   And because Yamaha undoubtedly understands their customer base, suggests the existence of a well-thought-out marketing strategy to explain their M offerings.

Believe whatever you want about marketing decisions, but I'd urge people not to expect Yamaha to be able to unlock polyAT in existing M6 and M7 keyboards.

 

I would agree with this.  Yamaha is satisfied with its projected sales of M6/M7 as defined. 

 

You want a synth action Poly AT Montage M?   You're gonna need the competitor's controller and a M6 or the Virtual M.

 

I would make a bet that the lighter weight Poly-AT keybed is in Yamaha's roadmap as the ASM position seems ripe for the picking.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

So why not just leave it off in all models then?  The keyboard had enough new features to stand alone without polyphonic aftertouch...

 

But they are generating a lot more buzz with it. They will probably sell more of them because it has this feature.

 

Personally, if you gave me a choice of a Montage M8 with or without pokyAT (at the same price), I'd take the one with. 😉

[AUSSIEKEYS]

From marketing perspective If no poly across the 3 boards then i  think i would have introduced only the upgraded 8 (poly version) and not introduced new 6 or 7 versions until if and when poly could be fitted. Ie let the then current modes run.

 

This would create a very special 88 that may sell more due to the fact there wasnt a poly update to the 6 and 7.

 

Then when the means (if possible with yamahas keybed width limitations) to fit poly to the smaller siblings was possible then hit the market with the updated 6 and 7.

 

The biggest advantage I see to this keybed is the sensors (optical i believe?). I have longed for a keyboard that doesnt stuff up due to dust in the workings or stupid rubber bubbles not seating properly or decaying due to age. I believe the Vax77 had such sensors but was a mythical beast here  downunder. So little chance of finding one to try. 

[AnotherScott]

The screams we'd be hearing if the new model was only available in a 60 lb 88, and everyone who wanted something smaller/lighter had to buy a 7 year old model... Roland and Korg would have loved that for their Nautilus and Fantom non-88 sales! Really, even without polyAT, a 61/76 Montage M is more desirable board than the old Montage, which, of course, didn't have poly AT either. So  if you're not going to get polyAT either way, you might as well just buy the M, and you can always buy some tape to cover up the M and pretend it's a 7 year old Montage. 😉

[AUSSIEKEYS]

5 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The screams we'd be hearing if the new model was only available in a 60 lb 88, and everyone who wanted something smaller/lighter had to buy a 7 year old model...

 

Hee hee.  Man I'd love to hear those screams as i feel yamaha is saying "let them eat cake" (or brioche)...sort of showing their indifference to the what the peasants really want.

 

Me personally the thing that is interesting on this slab is the optical sensing. For me a simple stage piano with optical sensing would be enough without all the bells and whistles.

 

But i do enjoy the back and forthing with perhaps a few screams thrown in for good measure that newly introduced keyboards create. Hee hee

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 

Hee hee.  Man I'd love to hear those screams as i feel yamaha is saying "let them eat cake" (or brioche)...sort of showing their indifference to the what the peasants really want.

 

Me personally the thing that is interesting on this slab is the optical sensing. For me a simple stage piano with optical sensing would be enough without all the bells and whistles.

 

But i do enjoy the back and forthing with perhaps a few screams thrown in for good measure that newly introduced keyboards create. Hee hee

The peasants always have difficulty getting their hands on flagship boards.  In Yamaha’s case that’s why they have MOX, MODX.  MODX7+ is quite an instrument for the price point! But like the others the sacrifice is plastic build, cheap action in exchange for price and weight.  
 

Is there channel AT on Montage M 76 and 61?  We’ve seen omitting that was a bad idea from Roland’s sales or lack there of the Jupiter-50.  Having no AT at all on synths is a bad idea for 2023 forward with MIDI 2.0 and MPE.  
 

*yes the 61 and 76 have channel AT.  that’s a win* 

[Theo Verelst]

If I recall properly, the M8x has magnetic, not optical keyboard sensors, which reminds me of experiments around a prototype for some Austrian microchips I had samples of a decade ago, which might be the sort of sensor used for the infinite dials as well, which works through a magnetic field, induced by a magnet attached to the virtual dial knob, of which the rotations is measured by balanced Hall sensors on the chip. Gets a thousand or even 4,000 "clicks" per revolution, compensates for other magnetic fields and is contactless.

 

T.V.

[pjd]

The optical shutter sensing system is used in the older AvantGrand and SilentPiano instruments. The "Non-contact continuous detection electromagnetic induction sensor" is the latest Yamaha tech and will be delivered in the newer AvantGrand and SilentPiano models. GEX is derived from the EM induction sensor approach.

 

I'm still searching for information, but a recent Yamaha patent describes such a key articulation system. The key side has one or two coils of wire. The substrate (PCB) side has similar opposing coils. The circuitry senses flux direction, etc. on a key-by-key basis.

 

Yamaha's latest patent is interesting because they want to measure "yaw" and "roll", not just vertical "strike" distance. Couple this with their recent key/note articulation patents and you've got an "MPE" keyboard!

 

Quite possibly, they were not able to finish the design and set up the manufacturing for these advanced designs. Thus, the m6 and m7 got FSX (for now). The Montage M team were probably ordered to "deliver or die in October 2023" by the suits.

 

That's my freshest take -- pj

 

More background: https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m8x-key-notes/

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

1 hour ago, pjd said:

The "Non-contact continuous detection electromagnetic induction sensor"

 

GEX is derived from the EM induction sensor approach.

 

Yamaha's latest patent is interesting because they want to measure "yaw" and "roll", not just vertical "strike" distance. Couple this with their recent key/note articulation patents and you've got an "MPE" keyboard!

 

 Thanks Theo Verelst and pjd thats even more interesting especially as pjd mentions yaw and roll.

 

Im assuming that means a method of responding to sideways movement which to me is even more interesting as invariably when playing a stage piano I instantly try to move my finger sideways to bend a note or introduce modulation. I never try to press down to activate aftertouch...never.

 

Mind you playing acoustic piano i never feel the need to induce any modulation. But a stage piano which invariably has strings etc in background feels natural to move my fingers side to side after the strike. 

 

Theres only one keyboard i know that does that and I was patiently waiting to see if a stage piano would be developed using that technology

[Dockeys]

I’d like to see the next trickle down  Modx with perhaps the CP73 action. That would tick a lot of boxes for me. But, I’d be apprehensive that Yamaha might put in that newer compact hammer action that’s been released in the 225 series. It appear inferior from the reviews I’ve read. Here’s hoping the next one has a half decent action. 🤞

[Redknife]

Sam Gutman (Lauryn Hill, Out of the Beardsacape) focusing on VA sounds on the m6:

 

[AnotherScott]

 

About the possibility of the VST version being available (at some cost) even to those who don't purchase the keyboard...

 

On 10/13/2023 at 11:10 AM, AnotherScott said:

At this point, I guess I'd call it a rumor... but one from the only source that said anything about any VST version at all, prior to Yamaha's announcement. So I don't think it's entirely groundless speculation, but it's possible that that source, despite getting some accurate info, also got some inaccurate info or there was some kind of miscommunication.

 

That source just posted:

 

Quote

At first, I was given to understand that it would work completely independently of the Montage. In other words a Montage M you could control from a controller keyboard. But now I am not so sure. I asked Yamaha for clarification but as is quite normal these days they completely ignored my questions.

I am hoping this is a proper standalone software synth Montage but I am having some doubts

 

[felis]

From Yamaha's site (bold section is mine):

 

EXPANDED SOFTSYNTH PLUGIN (E.S.P.) (COMING EARLY 2024)

A game-changer for musicians, the Expanded Softsynth Plugin (E.S.P.) replicates the MONTAGE M in your favorite Digital Workstation (DAW). Free for all registered MONTAGE M owners, E.S.P. allows you to create, edit and mix MONTAGE M Performances anywhere you happen to be – without the hardware – offering an unprecedented level of stage and studio integration. We are planning on releasing E.S.P. in early 2024. The first version will have all the MONTAGE M sound while being limited to basic editing. The full version will be available in Summer 2024.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/montagem/index.html

 

I suppose you could "create, edit, and mix" in software without being able to hear it, but it seems like that would be a bit difficult.

Basically, that would be an editor that functions without having the keyboard attached.

The alternative of a softsynth that you could hear would be a lot more useful.

[felis]

Oops - just read it again and it says:  The first version will have all the MONTAGE M sound while being limited to basic editing.

 

Slippery, teflon, wiggle out of it speak. 

Sound as in 'coming out of your speakers', 

or sound as in 'all the Montage sounds are in there for you to see and inspect'.

[DeltaJockey]

1 hour ago, felis said:

Oops - just read it again and it says:  The first version will have all the MONTAGE M sound while being limited to basic editing.

 

Slippery, teflon, wiggle out of it speak. 

Sound as in 'coming out of your speakers', 

or sound as in 'all the Montage sounds are in there for you to see and inspect'.

I read it as a software vst plugin, which will <eventually> have all the editing functionality. As a Montage M owner, I'm looking forward to getting my hands on it. To me, the intent on how they describe it, if not what I interpret it as, would be downright misleading advertising. It clearly states being able to use it as a Montage WITHOUT the hardware.

 

I think it's a parallel to what Korg did with the Wavestate. If you bought the hardware Wavestate you get the vst for free, and it's essentially identical in function and sound. If you don't own the hardware you can purchase the vst for $199. Why wouldn't Yamaha follow that model?

[Motif88]

Well, I have GAS. Despite having owned and moved away from "workstations" including the original Motif 8, Motif ES8, Motif XS8 and Kronos 88 to use an RD-2000 w/PHA 50 action with a boatload of software synths, I might actually get an Montage MX8. I thinking/hoping that my RD-2000 and Hydrasynth Deluxe with poly aftertouch can be replaced by the Montage MX8. It's too easy to get lost in software and forget to actually make music. I almost pulled the trigger on a Nord Stage 4 88 for that very reason.

 

The size and weight on the MX8 are not an issue as it will live in my home studio.

 

Appreciate any thoughts and comments, especially from those who have played an MX8.

 

Cheers!

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, felis said:

Oops - just read it again and it says:  The first version will have all the MONTAGE M sound while being limited to basic editing.

 

Slippery, teflon, wiggle out of it speak. 

 

I agree with DeltaJockey. I think the first version will give you access to all the Montage M sounds without having to be connected to a Montage M... with partial on-board editing functionality at first, and full editing functionality coming later. As you say, any remote/tethered editing would be pretty useless if you coudn't hear the actual sounds as you were editing them!

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, Motif88 said:

I might actually get an Montage MX8. I thinking/hoping that my RD-2000 and Hydrasynth Deluxe with poly aftertouch can be replaced by the Montage MX8. It's too easy to get lost in software and forget to actually make music. I almost pulled the trigger on a Nord Stage 4 88 for that very reason.

 

The size and weight on the MX8 are not an issue as it will live in my home studio.

IMO, the Nord Stage 4 is better from a tactile perspective especially when it comes to tweaking sounds on the fly in real-time.

 

Workstation type KBs are great for incorporating every sound, feature and functionality in one box. Menu-diving is the least fun aspect of it especially in the middle of creativity. 😎

[Dockeys]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I agree with DeltaJockey. I think the first version will give you access to all the Montage M sounds without having to be connected to a Montage M... with partial on-board editing functionality at first, and full editing functionality coming later. As you say, any remote/tethered editing would be pretty useless if you coudn't hear the actual sounds as you were editing them!

Wonder why they are releasing it piecemeal? First iteration sounds like a “work in progress” version until the “real” one is realised? Do you think the vst idea was added last minute and wasn’t ready in time for the hardware launch? 

[DeltaJockey]

3 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Wonder why they are releasing it piecemeal? First iteration sounds like a “work in progress” version until the “real” one is realised? Do you think the vst idea was added last minute and wasn’t ready in time for the hardware launch? 

I think it's very predictable. Given the complexity of writing the software for this and peoples' expectation that it be bug free, and want it now, I think it's commendable they start with an offering that is less risky. I have more respect for companies that take a little extra time to get it right rather than push their programmers to a deadline, and expect their customers to beta test.

The old productivity triangle comes to mind....Fast, Quality, Inexpensive...take your pick

 

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Do you think the vst idea was added last minute and wasn’t ready in time for the hardware launch? 

Not ready in time for hardware launch, yes. Added last minute? Not necessarily.

[Keyboardplayer]

Since Yamaha was unable, or unwilling, to provide Poly AT on the M6/M7 I have a hunch you'll only be able to use the ESP software version of the Montage M if you already own a hardware version of the Montage M. If Yamaha really wanted non-Montage M owners to experience the Montage M you would think Yamaha would make it available in a hardware Rack version like they did with the Motif series. The ESP version will probably be configured to work only in conjunction with the Montage M and wait for it... Cubase 12/13! You'll be able to use the ESP version while you're away from the Montage M i.e. on the road, etc., but you'll likely need a hardware Montage M for full functionality. But at least it'll be free for Montage M owners from what I understand so that's one positive thing in its favor. Of course, this is my own opinion but Yamaha might surprise us all. Nah, on second thought, probably not. 😁  

[AnotherScott]

11 minutes ago, Keyboardplayer said:

If Yamaha really wanted non-Montage M owners to experience the Montage M you would think Yamaha would make it available in a hardware Rack version like they did with the Motif series. 

I think a software version could both be less expensive to develop/manufacture, and have a larger potential market, compared to a rack module. Cheaper to make and easier to sell sounds like a good strategy! Plus, putting its electronics (and presumably a decent-sized screen) into a reasonably sized rack module sounds tricky, too.

[Bobadohshe]

On 10/29/2023 at 5:47 AM, Redknife said:

Sam Gutman (Lauryn Hill, Out of the Beardsacape) focusing on VA sounds on the m6:

 

 

 

Seems....fine. I feel like we can get similar enough sounds from the AWM and FM in the 1st gen Montage. At least to the point where it's not worth plopping down $4K for the delta in sonic possibility.

[Keyboardplayer]

For you technically inclined aficionados out there, Yamaha added the open source code for the Montage M to their website:

 

https://download.yamaha.com/sourcecodes/synth/

 

For time constraint, I copied the following info from the Yamaha Musicians.com website

 

Linux Kernel: The Montage M uses the version 4.19.94, which was released on 2020-01-09. It is an LTS kernel, with the initial release on 2018-10-22. For comparison, the Montage uses the version 3.12.10, which was released on 2014-02-06. It is also an LTS kernel, with the initial release on 2013-11-03.

 

GCC (GNU Compiler Collection): The Montage M uses the version 8.3, which was released on 2019-02-22. For comparison, the Montage uses the version 4.9.2, which was released on 2014-10-30.

 

GLIBC (GNU C Library): The Montage M uses the version 2.28, which was released on 2018-08-01. For comparison, the Montage uses the version 2.19, which was released on 2014-02-07.

 

The Yamaha Genos also uses a Linux-based OS. I would imagine so will the soon-to-be released Genos2. Linux is known for its stability and reliability in a working environment.

[CHarrell]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I think a software version could both be less expensive to develop/manufacture, and have a larger potential market, compared to a rack module. Cheaper to make and easier to sell sounds like a good strategy! Plus, putting its electronics (and presumably a decent-sized screen) into a reasonably sized rack module sounds tricky, too.

 

The question is though, is once the software Montage M is out there, is it strong enough to play with the big dogs that dominate the software space? I think most people have a tier of expectations when it comes to hardware sounds vs software.

[ElmerJFudd]

13 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

The question is though, is once the software Montage M is out there, is it strong enough to play with the big dogs that dominate the software space? I think most people have a tier of expectations when it comes to hardware sounds vs software.

Sure - all of these instruments today are software.  Wether they are running on Linux on a Montage M or Windows or macOS on a laptop or desktop.  And they are all either using sample libraries or modeling.  
 

The only difference would be the size and detail of the sample libraries.  Ok - Montage M is not going to compete with Garritan CFX on captured details of a specific piano.  But in everything else - sure, as far as ROMpler software, it would be competitive, and the FM-X or AN-X are very capable software synths.  
 

But as they are aware - being able to share the patches and setlists between hardware and computer is desirable for when you do and don’t have your Montage M with you.     And for collectors - the market is filled with hardware clones in software.  In fact, they sell better than entirely unique and original software synths.  

[Stokely]

I personally can't imagine wanting to use any hardware keyboard in software...maybe some really specialized thing, but I don't know what that would be.

We already have software organs and synths that can at the least keep up, and in the case of the pianos can go beyond any keyboard.  I guess if people are wanting "that sound" from some keyboard, but I'm usually the other direction  (Man, I'd love to get my Modx to sound like Hammersmith Pro and Repro!).  But I don't want the software enough to want to bring out a computer to gigs, though that's just me.

Certainly I'd be very glad to escape the keyboard operating systems, but then I love the flexibility of using a DAW with all the different effects and routing possible and it's common to all the instruments you might use.   In short, I've seen people asking for romplers in software, and every time I scratch my head at it...your DAW IS the rompler....but different strokes!