Excedrin Headache #9 / VI Labs Ravenscroft LATENCY !!!

[mrk7421]

I have been hearing for years about how wonderful the VI Labs Ravenscroft virtual piano is.There are some impressive demos on Youtube etc. so when this software was offered for 99 dollars awhile back I decided to give it a try.

 

A friend of mine who is A LOT more computer savvy than I am offered to help me install it.....we elected to put it on an HP desktop that seemed to offer enough memory and enough ports to plug what ever it might need into it.

 

I apparently tested the patience of my friend during the extremely long installation process. According to him he has never seen anything like the difficulties he encountered installing this thing....particularly involving the additional player required to operate it and the whole dongle issue that had been discussed here before.

 

He finally got it working. So now there are obvious latency issues....how frustrating.

 

I don't know how some of you manage to deal with installing programs like this. And my friend commented that he can't imagine how this product exists with such obvious lack of support. He did talk to Sweetwater and they told him they dumped this product based on some of the very issues we are having.

 

Can anyone comment on what the source of the latency might be? The controller is a Roland FP10....I would like to hear your experiences regarding installing this and if you feel it was worth it.

 

 

[PianoMan51]

I don’t have any experience in using VSTs on PCs. 
 

But on my 2013 MacBook Pro there is this handy dandy thing called a ‘latency setting’.

 

My Ravencroft runs well at 128, both standalone and hosted by Mainstage. (That’s 128 bytes at 44kBs). 
 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

You will have to share what you are using for a PC?  

Make

Model

CPU

RAM

Storage Type 

Which version of Windows 

 

Audio interface or onboard audio?  
 

————

 

here is the minimum spec for Ravenscroft to even run.  
 

Minimum CPU requirements: Intel Core 2 Duo System (intel core i preferred for best performance)

 

 7200rpm hard drive (Solid State Drive (SSD) preferred for best performance)

 

 4GB of RAM

 

—-

 

I believe Ravenscroft runs on UVI Workstation.  Here is the manual.  Use the best audio drivers available for your PC - ASIO is/was preferable.  And test the audio buffer values to see how low you can get it to go. 
 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/uvi/UVI+Workstation/uviworkstation_user_guide_en.pdf

 

 

[Stokely]

I don't have any experience with that particular plugin, and haven't used Windows for music since xp days.  That said, it's the same at a certain level.

Do you have other plugins you are using, and do they also experience latency?  Just to rule out whether this is a Ravenscroft issue or a general pc issue.  Some laptops back in the day were more or less prone to "DPC latency", which exists on top of (or under to be a bit more precise) the normal latency you deal with when it comes to plugins.   I don't know if this is still a widespread thing.

Are you using it standalone, or with a DAW?  That might impact where the settings are that you might need to change.

[Docbop]

Just checking,  you're not listening with Bluetooth headphones are you? 

[Stokely]

That would definitely do it, but again you'd hear that same bluetooth issue with other plugins if you have them. 

 

I don't see any mention of an audio interface, that could potentially be the reason for latency.  Not sure the built-in pc audio will be good enough to run vsts without latency and/or performance issues in a Daw with a few/many tracks.   That's getting a bit technical for me personally but I've never used plugins on mac or pc without one, might be force of habit and isn't needed for one plugin (?)

[SteveNathan]

All I can say is I never had any of the problems you’ve described when I was using Ravenscroft. Quite the opposite really. Perhaps the blame belongs elsewhere. 

[Baldwin Funster]

I went through some older synth apps last night and noticed latency on one or 2 that were never a problem before. One I'll mention is Poly Six. I had never played it on my new Gen 9 ipad only my mini4 on which I don't recall having any latency. But no latency on TalUnoLx.

And B3x was as fast as ever. My guess is that some of the the older non updated apps don't like iOS 15. 

Maybe thats the problem the OP is having.

[drawback]

1 minute ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I went through some older synth apps last night and noticed latency on one or 2 that were never a problem before. One I'll mention is Poly Six. I had never played it on my new Gen 9 ipad only my mini4 on which I don't recall having any latency. But no latency on TalUnoLx 

And B3x were fast as ever. My guess is that some of the the older non updated apps don't like iOS 15. 

Maybe thats the problem the OP is having.

OP is having the problem on a PC 😉

[Baldwin Funster]

1 minute ago, drawback said:

OP is having the problem on a PC 😉

My Bad.

 

The PC is it's own problem. 

[Joe Muscara]

23 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

I apparently tested the patience of my friend during the extremely long installation process. According to him he has never seen anything like the difficulties he encountered installing this thing....particularly involving the additional player required to operate it and the whole dongle issue that had been discussed here before.

 

He finally got it working. So now there are obvious latency issues....how frustrating.

 

I don't know how some of you manage to deal with installing programs like this.

A little OT. I recently installed a demo version of a DAW just to access some old studio sessions, and the hoops I had to go through to install it and get it running were pretty bad. I mainly use Logic, which is pretty much a no-brainer. I realize it doesn't have the additional copy protection BS that other products use like the demo I installed, but even without that, I felt like there were too many hoops that an average user wouldn't know what to do with. I realized that's another reason studios don't upgrade, besides "if it's not broke, don't upgrade it," it's just too much hassle. It made me extra glad I installed it on a separate volume so all the detritus it would throw on my computer wouldn't clutter up my day-to-day volume, and if I removed the volume, it would just be gone.

[mrk7421]

The PC is the problem? What am I supposed to do, get a Mac? 

 

The whole thing about the computer world is that you are supposed to just figure out everything on your own....by intuition. I had a fairly competent person assisting me in trying to install Ravenscroft.... I knew I couldn't install it on my own and apparently he couldn't either.

 

The computer I am using has 8 gig of Ram. It is currently not hooked up because we were trying to get it to run at a different location . At this time I don't know the other specs.

 

I will check the issue of audio interface. I am not using anything out board... it would all be whatever is inside the computer.

 

At one point I was communicating with a person named Lance at VI labs... who I met at NAMM. I may need to see if VI labs is offering any support.

 

 

 

 

[mrk7421]

I agree with Joe.... too many hoops here. Consider yourself quite skilled if you got through a Ravenscroft installation.

[wd8dky]

I've been using it for years on a well-tweaked (for music production) laptop with no latency issues whatsoever. 

[drawback]

7 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

The computer I am using has 8 gig of Ram. It is currently not hooked up because we were trying to get it to run at a different location . At this time I don't know the other specs.

Let us know what you find when you check the buffer setting. You should be able to set Ravenscroft / UVI Player to the lowest. 

[Baldwin Funster]

Sorry. My PC quip was just from my personal frustration with windows. I have 6 computers and 2 ipads. 5 of the 6 are windows 10 and 1 is win7. 

I've used them all for music production or for VSTi's. And all the win10 units run stuff in the background that even windows experts don't fully grasp and those background tasks cause me much misery in the form of freeze ups or my DAW session I use to host the vsts needing to be restarted after a 30 minute break.

 

I've almost never have those problems with iOS.

 

And I've done all the optimization tweaks from all the articles and vids. Aside from that the problem with win10 is....you guessed it...LATENCY. and to get it down so playing a vsti is even possible I have to shave the buffer settings as low as possible making the DAW stability issues worse.

 

Again very few problems like that in iOS except in a couple of old non-updated synth apps that are abandoned. 

[octa]

I use “modern U” sometimes and it works well on Mac and PC. (also requires UVI player) — most VST’s have irregular installations, esp. when I ignore the instructions (often the case) — to me it seems most VST’s have a tad of latency, compared to hardware instruments, and hardware have a tad compared to real acoustic piano, but I get used to it after a minute or 2. — a decent audio interface & computer allows the option to set lower buffer sizes. “32” is where I like it. “64” or “128” if things are misbehaving. — I purchased Ravenscroft for iOS and imagine/hope the desktop version sounds a lot better, due to more available sample memory etc.

[PianoMan51]

1 hour ago, mrk7421 said:

I agree with Joe.... too many hoops here. Consider yourself quite skilled if you got through a Ravenscroft installation.

VST, MIDI, operating systems, host software, etc.

 

This is a world for people who are not satisfied with a Nord Piano 5, and create their own solution. (Lots of musicians are engineers).

 

Imagine we’re in the world of automobiles. I can buy any number of off the shelf cars. But if I’m in that small group of enthusiasts who aren’t satisfied with that, I can install a different carburetor, or engine, or transmission. But if I haven’t the previous experience with car repairs or modifications, then expecting this to be easy…

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, mrk7421 said:

The PC is the problem? What am I supposed to do, get a Mac? 

 

The whole thing about the computer world is that you are supposed to just figure out everything on your own....by intuition. I had a fairly competent person assisting me in trying to install Ravenscroft.... I knew I couldn't install it on my own and apparently he couldn't either.

 

The computer I am using has 8 gig of Ram. It is currently not hooked up because we were trying to get it to run at a different location . At this time I don't know the other specs.

 

I will check the issue of audio interface. I am not using anything out board... it would all be whatever is inside the computer.

 

At one point I was communicating with a person named Lance at VI labs... who I met at NAMM. I may need to see if VI labs is offering any support.

 

 

 

 

I believe this is mainly about getting UVI workstation running properly on your PC, since Ravenscroft is just a sample library developed for that software.  
 

I presume you are attempting to use the onboard audio.  This can only be low latency if your audio card has a low latency driver.  Yes, an audio interface with its own low latency ASIO will reduce latency.  
 

The other issue may be how you have Windows setup.  It has to be setup for performance, no low power use or battery extending settings.  It will work best on wall power.  And you should run a DPC latency test on the PC to see if there is anything interrupting it’s ability to stream audio in real time efficiently. 
 

https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

[Stokely]

1 hour ago, PianoMan51 said:

VST, MIDI, operating systems, host software, etc.

 

This is a world for people who are not satisfied with a Nord Piano 5, and create their own solution. (Lots of musicians are engineers).

 

Imagine we’re in the world of automobiles. I can buy any number of off the shelf cars. But if I’m in that small group of enthusiasts who aren’t satisfied with that, I can install a different carburetor, or engine, or transmission. But if I haven’t the previous experience with car repairs or modifications, then expecting this to be easy…

I made a similar post then removed it.  I don't want to sound condescending, at all.  But my honest advice to the original poster is that embarking into the "computer world" is going to have some headaches.  Things might work well for a time, then something needs updating or there's some issue, and eventually computers need replacing so you'll have to install all over again.  I find those headaches worth it at home, because I use a lot of plugins to do recording, but I want no part of it live so I use hardware keyboards at gigs.

I'm an IT professional (databases) and I still get frustrated with computer issues, on both macs and pcs.  I've done music on both, though only macs for the past bunch of years.  I did a long-awaited (literally years behind due to one long project) upgrade of my computer's OS and some plugins broke while all the others needed updating...it was a hassle but that's part of the package you get in exchange for amazing flexibility and convenience of having all the options in the computer!

If all you want to do is sit down, hit the on switch and play--and that's me at gigs--I wouldn't recommend software, I'd get a nice digital keyboard with the sound(s) you need.  If you want to record, well then maybe but it depends....  If you wanted to create whole productions with synths, drums and vocals etc etc, then absolutely that is my choice (but still not required).

 

[D. Gauss]

8GB RAM? on a windoze PC?  In 2023? That's asking for trouble in general.

[Konnector]

What about hard drives?  You need a separate dedicated hard drive to stream large sample libraries from. A minimum setup for a smooth functioning daw is 3 drives. One drive for programs and OS, a 2nd drive for daw project files and a 3rd drive for sample libraries....plus a good low latency audio interface. (RME, etc.) For RAM, the more the merrier. 16Megs will carry you a long way and would be a minimum IMO.

[ElmerJFudd]

Yeah but 8gb of RAM and a 7200 rpm HD will do Ravenscroft/UVI well enough as long as the processor is adequate, the sound card has ASIO drivers, the OS is tweaked for performance and the motherboard passes DPC latency tests.  The problem is the learning curve.  

[Tom Williams]

14 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

The computer I am using has 8 gig of Ram. It is currently not hooked up because we were trying to get it to run at a different location . At this time I don't know the other specs.

Nowadays, 8 GB RAM is not considered a lot, especially if you're running Windows 10 or 11.

 

I would suggest as an easy next step, launch the Task Manager and see if you can ascertain what portion of RAM and CPU are being used, first without and then with the plugin (and its sandbox) running.

[mrk7421]

I want to say that I appreciate all the good insight and advice on this thread. Thank you for your input

 

The bottom line is.... installation of Ravenscroft is not for the faint of heart. We went through a

fair amount of hell to even get it to make sound. 

 

I kind of let the thread ride and waited for the information that did show up. I am working with another person... fairly skilled on this and we are going to try the suggestions provided. Once again , thank you.

 

I am in a sense trying to avoid spending another two grand or so for another digital piano. I have some good controllers as candidates ... the best probably being a Yamaha CP5. I do not want a Yamaha sample.... I am not in agreement with how they address low register overtones.

 

Just curious.... would something like Pianoteq be easier to install than this has been ?

 

And last question... does VI Labs offer any support for Ravenscroft

 

Thank you for any and all input

 

[ElmerJFudd]

29 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

I want to say that I appreciate all the good insight and advice on this thread. Thank you for your input

 

The bottom line is.... installation of Ravenscroft is not for the faint of heart. We went through a

fair amount of hell to even get it to make sound. 

 

I kind of let the thread ride and waited for the information that did show up. I am working with another person... fairly skilled on this and we are going to try the suggestions provided. Once again , thank you.

 

I am in a sense trying to avoid spending another two grand or so for another digital piano. I have some good controllers as candidates ... the best probably being a Yamaha CP5. I do not want a Yamaha sample.... I am not in agreement with how they address low register overtones.

 

Just curious.... would something like Pianoteq be easier to install than this has been ?

 

And last question... does VI Labs offer any support for Ravenscroft

 

Thank you for any and all input

 

Installation of Pianoteq is relatively simple because it is a self contained application.  No, multi gigabyte sample library, no third party  software sample player.  There is however copy protection, but it is a simple code which can be used with or without an Internet connection.  
 

You would still have to address latency on this PC by finding better drivers for this sound card or using a dedicated USB audio interface that does have low latency ASIO drivers 
 

 

[stoken6]

`As mentioned above in this thread: what audio interface are you using?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[TJ Cornish]

My day job is in IT, and I play hardware synths.  

 

I have hired and fired MainStage at least 3 times, thinking “surely there’s something I’m missing…” but the instability, the insane RAM requirements due to poor instance memory management, your DIY need to build the whole keyboard, crashing, OS updates, driver issues, etc. I have yet to figure out why, other than price (and only if you don’t factor in the cost of the MAC), this is better than a Kronos, Fantom, or whatever else.

 

And PCs are even worse.

[ElmerJFudd]

52 minutes ago, TJ Cornish said:

My day job is in IT, and I play hardware synths.  

 

I have hired and fired MainStage at least 3 times, thinking “surely there’s something I’m missing…” but the instability, the insane RAM requirements due to poor instance memory management, your DIY need to build the whole keyboard, crashing, OS updates, driver issues, etc. I have yet to figure out why, other than price (and only if you don’t factor in the cost of the MAC), this is better than a Kronos, Fantom, or whatever else.

 

And PCs are even worse.

 🤷‍♂️ I’ve run a Broadway show’s worth of patches for weeks straight without issue.  Close the MacBook and hit patch forward till the end.  
 

Reasons to prefer it. 
 

You already own the MacBook and the software is inexpensive.  

 

The included library of sounds and fx is very large and consistent from machine to machine.  Move your shows from Mac to Mac. Share your patches and shows with others and find the ones you need for yourself. 
 

If there is something better out there for specific sounds - B3X, Garritan CFX, Pianoteq, etc.  Install it!  All the best stuff is in desktop OS software now anyway.  
 

Use any midi controller.   A keyboard you already own, a cheap POS, or a Kronos.  All the mapping and assignments are done in MainStage.   
 

MainStage isn’t the only host.  Graphic Performer has a following as well.  And it’s cross platform.  
 

Note: MainStage is very deep. Anything that gives you as much flexibility and possibilities is going to have a learning curve.  But it’s become so widely adopted that it’s easy to find help. 
 

Do I prefer one excellent keyboard to using a laptop?  Yes, of course!  But if the gig requires more, we have options.  Much to the keyboard manufacturers’ dismay.  

[TJ Cornish]

I don’t dispute people have success with MainStage and other systems; my point is that I’m a pretty technical user, have gone VERY deep in several hardware workstation platforms, do IT infrastructure as my day job, and still I find PC soft synths challenging. Adding to my list from above: License transfer/expiration issues, soft synth obsolescence, extra setup time due to a bunch more pieces of your rig, and more.

 

If the OP just wants something to work and is having these kinds of difficulties, I don’t think soft synths other than maybe something pre-packaged like Korg Module are a good idea.

 

I will say that I used Omnisphere as a host for itself and Keyscape and had better luck with those than with MainStage as the host, but that’s better luck, not a seamless experience.