InMusic buying Moog?

[Jim Alfredson]

Just now, CyberGene said:

Is that a critique of modern world economy? Because virtually anything nowadays is made in China or other low wage countries. How much do you think an iPhone would cost if it was made in USA?

Actually there was a report on that which I read a few years ago. They determined that the iPhone would cost maybe $100 more if assembled in the US but of course Apple would have to take less profit on each one (not much less), which they will never do so that’s a moot point. 
 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/technology/2018/9/13/17851052/apple-iphone-price-china-trump-us-trade

 

[Jim Alfredson]

6 minutes ago, analogika said:

 

No. It is not. At least not at Sweetwater and MF.

The Sub 37 was discontinued SIX YEARS ago. If there's really any stock still around, that really speaks volumes to moog's ability to move inventory, doesn't it? 

You are incorrect. The tribute edition was discontinued six years ago. The regular edition is still in production. It’s still listed on the Moog website as an active product. 

[analogika]

2 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Actually there was a report on that which I read a few years ago. They determined that the iPhone would cost maybe $100 more if assembled in the US but of course Apple would have to take less profit on each one (not much less), which they will never do so that’s a moot point. 
 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/technology/2018/9/13/17851052/apple-iphone-price-china-trump-us-trade

 

Just skimming, but it seems that article completely ignores that one of the major factors in China is the ability to just hire 80,000 people quickly for a product ramp-up before release, and release them after the holiday season boom. 

That is simply not possible in too many places in the world, at that scale. 

[AnotherScott]

I'm not sure Behringer's Model D had more of an impact on Moog than Roland's SE-02... and I kind of doubt the purchasers of either of those modules would have been likely to buy the Minimoog D reissue if said module was not available.

 

I was really looking forward to my Sub37 when it was released, but ended up returning it. The glaring front panel lights made it hard to read the knob legends, and I didn't like the key feel (too long a throw, IIRC). And I found some of it just confusing (admittedly that could be from my own inexperience with higher end modern analogs). In the end, I just wasn't getting any joy from either operating it or playing it. 😞 

[analogika]

6 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

You are incorrect. The tribute edition was discontinued six years ago. The regular edition is still in production. It’s still listed on the Moog website as an active product. 

 

I'm sorry, but the product listed on the Moog site is the SubSEQUENT 37, which is the synth that REPLACED the Sub 37 six years ago. 
 

And Sweetwater currently offers it for $1900. Which is $1100 more than the Deepmind 12, Behringer's most expensive synth. 

[CyberGene]

9 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Actually there was a report on that which I read a few years ago. They determined that the iPhone would cost maybe $100 more if assembled in the US

That’s quite an interesting article and while it hypothesizes about what the cost of an iPhone would be if it was made in the US, it actually contains much more valuable information such as:

 

There’s a confusion about China,” Cook said. “The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I’m not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor-cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location and the type of skill it is.”

[analogika]

6 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I was really looking forward to my Sub37 when it was released, but ended up returning it. The glaring front panel lights made it hard to read the knob legends, and I didn't like the key feel (too long a throw, IIRC).

 

A new keyboard was one of the features of the Subsequent 37.

[Jim Alfredson]

1 hour ago, analogika said:

 

I'm sorry, but the product listed on the Moog site is the SubSEQUENT 37, which is the synth that REPLACED the Sub 37 six years ago. 
 

And Sweetwater currently offers it for $1900. Which is $1100 more than the Deepmind 12, Behringer's most expensive synth. 

Right. The Subsequent 37 is the one I’m talking about in this thread. 

 

Yes, it’s more expensive than the Deepmind.

 

I see them on stages a lot. I don’t see Deepminds ever. 
 

I’m not solely blaming B***inger for the sale of Moog but they are undeniably having an effect on the industry as a whole, which again I don’t personally think is healthy. For a variety of reasons. 
 

If Moog had released a Minimoog for $1500, would that have helped or would people just buy the B one for half that?

 

Again, a race to the bottom.
 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Slashing jobs in Asheville. 
 

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/2023/09/22/world-renowned-instrument-maker-moog-slashes-jobs-at-asheville-factory/70934201007/
 

 

[jazzpiano88]

Taiwan.   Not China.   Interesting.

 

Anyone ever heard of Ten-Tec?   They're 60 Miles from Moog in Sevierville.

They're kind of like the Moog of Ham Radio.   Similar story.   Invented technology.    Couldn't afford to pay US residents to build electronics, even in the lowest cost of living possible in the USA.

 

And it's not just simple 70's - 90's electronics assembly.   Imagine you have the skills to assemble the optical equivalent of a space telescope and you live in San Jose or LA Area.   You can't get a job there where the companies are located.   They're all now outsourced to Singapore with the Ph.D. designed optics shipped in from Germany or southern New York.

[Jim Alfredson]

22 hours ago, CyberGene said:

That’s quite an interesting article and while it hypothesizes about what the cost of an iPhone would be if it was made in the US, it actually contains much more valuable information such as:

 

There’s a confusion about China,” Cook said. “The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I’m not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor-cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location and the type of skill it is.”

Yes it’s an interesting article. What Mr Cook fails to mention is that Apple is worth over $2 TRILLION and makes billions in profit every year. It could, if it wanted to, make the iPhone in any country on earth, sell it for what they currently sell it for, and STILL make a hefty profit. But not AS MUCH profit as they are currently making. 
 

And as we all know, in capitalism the mantra is “profit über alles”. 
 

I’m sure that if corporations wanted to pay workers here, they could convince their puppets in Washington to make the same kind of investments in people that China did; government funded training programs, trade schools, etc. But it’s easier and more profitable to ship those jobs overseas. 
 

Moog was trying to do things the “old fashioned” way for the most part. Too bad it’s unsustainable in today’s world. 

[CyberGene]

@Jim Alfredson I don't disagree with you. But the China angle to the talk started in relation to Behringer. After all, InMusic is an American company acquiring another American company. We don't know if the reason for the layoffs is to start manufacturing Moogs in China or just restructuring what they deemed an ineffective organization.

[analogika]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Yes it’s an interesting article. What Mr Cook fails to mention is that Apple is worth over $2 TRILLION and makes billions in profit every year. It could, if it wanted to, make the iPhone in any country on earth, sell it for what they currently sell it for, and STILL make a hefty profit. But not AS MUCH profit as they are currently making. 

 

I very much doubt that — especially at the scale at which Apple produces. This isn't 35 people building two thousand boutique synths a year: They need to book 80,000 people for a product ramp-up, and those people need to be shifted to different production lines (or build for different companies) a few months later.

 

That isn't a question of "profit". It just isn't possible in most places on Earth. Training, funding, or not. The sheer numbers simply aren't there. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Moog was trying to do things the “old fashioned” way for the most part. Too bad it’s unsustainable in today’s world. 

 

It seems to me — with my limited understanding of what was going on back then — that it wasn't sustainable in the early 1980s' world, either. 

 

 

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Yes it’s an interesting article. What Mr Cook fails to mention is that Apple is worth over $2 TRILLION and makes billions in profit every year. It could, if it wanted to, make the iPhone in any country on earth, sell it for what they currently sell it for, and STILL make a hefty profit. But not AS MUCH profit as they are currently making. 
 

And as we all know, in capitalism the mantra is “profit über alles”. 

 But that’s not how it works.   Cook is paid to make the stock price go up.   For that you need earnings growth. I.e. *increasing* profits.   

[ProfD]

5 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

But that’s not how it works.   Cook is paid to make the stock price go up.   For that you need earnings growth. I.e. *increasing* profits.   

That's a tough row to hoe for any boutique synth company.

 

Moog products are great but sold mainly on name brand  recognition.

 

It will be interesting to see how long inMusic is able to use the Moog name before customers go elsewhere. 😎

 

[GRollins]

So...now the Moog buyout thread becomes a Behringer-bash thread?

 

Jeez...

 

At least change the title of the thread to more accurately reflect the content.

 

I guess some people just gotta paint the walls with their self-righteous anger, no matter where they go. Count me out. There's enough hysteria and craziness in my world already--don't need more. You guys have fun.

 

Grey

 

P.S.: Might I suggest that those who want to vent about Uli's failings as a human being and Behringer corporate's desire to rule the world start their own, dedicated thread, rather than crapping all over other threads? They could have their own little sandbox where they could rant all they wanted. Just think: An echo chamber where their sermons reverberate from the walls, reinforcing their core beliefs with new conspiracy theories every week. Sound like a plan?

[Jim Alfredson]

22 hours ago, GRollins said:

I guess some people just gotta paint the walls with their self-righteous anger, no matter where they go. Count me out. There's enough hysteria and craziness in my world already--don't need more. You guys have fun.

 

Oh, the irony.
 

[jerrythek]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:08 PM, analogika said:

I very much doubt that — especially at the scale at which Apple produces. This isn't 35 people building two thousand boutique synths a year: They need to book 80,000 people for a product ramp-up, and those people need to be shifted to different production lines (or build for different companies) a few months later.

This is a very accurate and important issue regarding the production of almost any product. I have seen this issue many times in my career. We announce a new product, demand is very strong, and huge orders come in. We can't possibly fill the pipeline to meet the initial demand without greatly increasing our production capabilities. But 2-4 months in that initial demand has been met and the numbers will fall into whatever is the likely ongoing sales, let's say for the rest of the first year or two. It can be very difficult to impossible to scale up and then scale back your production capabilities, especially for a small-to-mid-sized company.  Chairman Katoh of Korg was very wise in these matters, and had learned from his past to not risk these huge swings, even though the distributors and the dealers were screaming for product. He would increase only in degrees so the stability of the company was not "rubber-banded" so severely. 

[Alkeys]

I can't say I'm surprised about this - AT ALL.

I posted on Synth Anatomy and want to make sure manufacturers are held accountable for their failures and understand what they did.  Seems common sense to me but Moog was obviously always oblivious to their problem. Quality Control and poor mechanical engineering.

 

A lot have people have said:

“-inMusic fired the people that made Moog a brand you want to buy from.”

This is not true. The person that made me want to buy a Moog was Jan Hammer, Kit Watkins, Stu Goldberg, Benoit Widemann, Eddie Jobson, Rick Wakeman, T. Lavitz, Larry Dunn, Mark Kelly, Bernie Worrell etc etc… not the hipster assemblyman with no electronics background that doesn’t bother to wear an anti-static wrist strap while assembling electronics.
Whether it was the Moog Voyager that i bought brand new in 2004 whose mod and pitch wheels rubbed on the wheel housing assembly or the reissue Minimoogs with aftertouch strip and low F that rubbed. After my experience with the Minimoog Voyager, I never bought another Moog product again.
Every…Single…Person that bought a Minimoog reissue that I know of has had quality control issues with their units. All over Gearspace, all over Moogmusic forum. It’s enough that it made me NOT open my wallet and buy a reissue Minimoog both in 2016 and then again in 2023. I just read horror story after horror story about people having to send this heavy beautiful $5,000 purchase back again.
Their issue was quality control. Bad quality control= people scared to make a $5,000 purchase. People scared to make a $5,000 purchase=your company makes no money and they go out of business. Just think of all the Minimoogs they would have sold if they took quality control seriously. Let this be a textbook whitepaper lesson to all manufacturers that cut corners and don’t take QC seriously and don’t think QC will affect your bottom line. In my little meaningless amateur musician, non-famous person bubble I know 5 people x $5,000 that didn’t buy a Minimoog reissue but wanted to but were scared of the QC issues. That’s $25,000 right there.
Their attention to detail was not there. Let’s talk about the Minimoog reissue. Other than all the quality control issues from a design standpoint, they put aftertouch (always was a stupid useless feature) on an instrument that never needed aftertouch and didn’t originally have it either. They put an extra LFO on there that didn’t need to be there because the folks that work at Moog Music couldn’t remember that the best of best Minimoog players like Jan Hammer used 1 or 2 oscillators at a time and the 3rd was used as an LFO. They put the “oreo cookie” pitch and mod wheels from a 9 hole, rev3, 75-81 Minimoog on a 6 hole rev 2 reissue that should have had either the smooth clear wheels from a Musonics rev 1 (best looking wheels) or the smooth cream wheels from a rev 2.

What a disappointment of a company Moog music was ever since Bob died. Thank god there are folks that are passionate about sound that are still making quality products that actually know what they’re doing. (Thank you Studio Electronics)

[HammondDave]

4 minutes ago, Alkeys said:

I can't say I'm surprised about this - AT ALL.

I posted on Synth Anatomy and want to make sure manufacturers are held accountable for their failures.

 

A lot have people have said:

“-inMusic fired the people that made Moog a brand you want to buy from.”

This is not true. The person that made me want to buy a Moog was Jan Hammer, Kit Watkins, Stu Goldberg, Benoit Widemann, Eddie Jobson, Rick Wakeman, T. Lavitz, Larry Dunn, Mark Kelly, Bernie Worrell etc etc… not the hipster assemblyman with no electronics background that doesn’t bother to wear an anti-static wrist strap while assembling electronics.
Whether it was the Moog Voyager that i bought brand new in 2004 whose mod and pitch wheels rubbed on the wheel housing assembly or the reissue Minimoogs with aftertouch strip and low F that rubbed. After my experience with the Minimoog Voyager, I never bought another Moog product again.
Every…Single…Person that bought a Minimoog reissue that I know of has had quality control issues with their units. All over Gearspace, all over Moogmusic forum. It’s enough that it made me NOT open my wallet and buy a reissue Minimoog both in 2016 and then again in 2023. I just read horror story after horror story about people having to send this heavy beautiful $5,000 purchase back again.
Their issue was quality control. Bad quality control= people scared to make a $5,000 purchase. People scared to make a $5,000 purchase=your company makes no money and they go out of business. Just think of all the Minimoogs they would have sold if they took quality control seriously. Let this be a textbook whitepaper lesson to all manufacturers that cut corners and don’t take QC seriously and don’t think QC will affect your bottom line. In my little meaningless amateur musician, non-famous person bubble I know 5 people x $5,000 that didn’t buy a Minimoog reissue but wanted to but were scared of the QC issues. That’s $25,000 right there.
Their attention to detail was not there. Let’s talk about the Minimoog reissue. Other than all the quality control issues from a design standpoint, they put aftertouch (always was a stupid useless feature) on an instrument that never needed aftertouch and didn’t originally have it either. They put an extra LFO on there that didn’t need to be there because the folks that work at Moog Music couldn’t remember that the best of best Minimoog players like Jan Hammer used 1 or 2 oscillators at a time and the 3rd was used as an LFO. They put the “oreo cookie” pitch and mod wheels from a 9 hole, rev3, 75-81 Minimoog on a 6 hole rev 2 reissue that should have had either the smooth clear wheels from a Musonics rev 1 (best looking wheels) or the smooth cream wheels from a rev 2.

What a disappointment of a company Moog music was ever since Bob died. Thank god there are folks that are passionate about sound that are still making quality products that actually know what they’re doing. (Thank you Studio Electronics)

 

I guess I am glad that I did not by a reissue MiniMoog. I should have never sold my vintage one when I went to grad school. Stable as hell with smooth wheels.  Loved it! 

[Alkeys]

2 hours ago, HammondDave said:

 

I guess I am glad that I did not by a reissue MiniMoog. I should have never sold my vintage one when I went to grad school. Stable as hell with smooth wheels.  Loved it! 

 

Yeah bummer you sold it. Yeah that company in it's latest creation spent so much money on marketing when they should have just made a high quality reissue that was exactly like the original with no added features.  Their product mix was not focused enough too.  Speaking of quality control, I remember when the Sub 37 came out, you could see the backlight screen's bright light bleeding into the neighboring holes where the buttons were. That's a perfect example of poor mechanical engineering. Can you see a green backlight bleeding into the surrounding buttons on a DX7IIFD? No. Thank you Japan TQM.  You combine poor mechanical engineering with crap assembly and quality control by non qualified assembly workers and you will get a bad product.  It's not a economically feasible for a qualified tech to work on an assembly line. That template is too costly in this day and age so unfortunately assembly work needs to be done by robots with higher tolerances of quality control to achieve a quality product.  Sad but true.  The only assembly I've seen that's quality is by those companies that are only one guy who is a sole proprietor or a company with just a few people who make the product entirely themselves by someone on their team that have an extensive background in all things synthesis, design, and assembly.  Studio Electronics is one of those last brands that does something this way. So today I only buy from giant Japanese companies (Yamaha) or super small boutique companies (Studio Electronics), not a company that is trying to be somewhere in between boutique and japan giant like I feel Moog Music was. 

 

Mr. Miagi say:  "Left side, safe. Right side, safe. In the middle get squished like grape."

 

The sad thing is Moog provided jobs for an area that has few jobs and that's the sad part.

[Spider76]

15 hours ago, Alkeys said:

 

Every…Single…Person that bought a Minimoog reissue that I know of has had quality control issues with their units. All over Gearspace, all over Moogmusic forum.

...

they put aftertouch (always was a stupid useless feature)...They put an extra LFO on there that didn’t need to be there

...

What a disappointment of a company Moog music was 

That sounds a bit, well, extreme? 😅

I've owned 14 Moog products in the last 10 years (all modern, no vintage) and none of them ever had any issue at all, including my 2016 D Reissue.

 

Internet forums are not the real world, it's widely demonstrated that issues and criticism are amplified there. Textbook example of echo chamber and vocal minority vs. silent majority.

Saying that EVERY SINGLE MINIMOOG has issues, like it was an absolute truth, is just useless alarmism. Especially when you admit that you never even tried a Moog product after the Voyager (that is what, 20 years ago?).

 

As for the fact that in the new Minimoog MIDI, aftertouch and extra LFO are stupid useless features, and they even committed the fatal offense of putting THE WRONG STYLE OF MOD WHEEL...you're entitled to your opinion, we know everybody has one 😉 

[Alkeys]

You are 100% right. Memorymoogs were a nightmare to service as well as were Polymoogs. Back to the minimoog which was Moog Music's flagship product, yes it is my opinion the rev3 oreo cookie wheels sucked because they were ugly, not ergonomic and would always crack in the middle where the set screw hole was where the center detent was.  I can guarantee you if you were to order 20 Minimoog reissues today, probably over half of them would have issues with the spongey low F or be calibrated wrong etc.

. 

"Especially when you admit that you never even tried a Moog product after the Voyager (that is what, 20 years ago?)."

Incorrect.

 

I regularly use a Sub 25 and Sub Phatty and those are great instruments and built well minus the sticky rubber sides on the Sub Phatty. I actually prefer the 25 to the 37 because of the 37's postage stamp sized screen is super annoying. I really like the 8 button memory thing on the upper left of the Sub 25.  16 memory locations is plenty on a mono. Hell 8 or even 4 are plenty for me. 

 

They just got the Minimoog reissue wrong and since it was their flagship product, they should have put extra attention in getting that product 100% right that's all I'm saying. 

I wish the workers the best.

[David Emm]

My dog just said "I love the new soft food, but if you post about B**er again, I will lightly bite your doodle while you're asleep."

[Nathanael_I]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:24 AM, Alkeys said:

Every…Single…Person that bought a Minimoog reissue that I know of has had quality control issues with their units. All over Gearspace, all over Moogmusic forum. It’s enough that it made me NOT open my wallet and buy a reissue Minimoog both in 2016 and then again in 2023. I just read horror story after horror story about people having to send this heavy beautiful $5,000 purchase back again.

Dunno.  This is not my experience.  It feels like a premium instrument.  It plays like one.  I've never had any trouble at all.  Mine is from 2016....  I have the hard case they made for it too - the whole thing has been a quality experience.   Funny enough its the only thing that's appealed to me enough to splash the cash...

[Tusker]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:51 PM, Jim Alfredson said:

Actually there was a report on that which I read a few years ago. They determined that the iPhone would cost maybe $100 more if assembled in the US but of course Apple would have to take less profit on each one (not much less), which they will never do so that’s a moot point. 
 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/technology/2018/9/13/17851052/apple-iphone-price-china-trump-us-trade

 

 

+1 

 

It's a terrifically illuminating article by Emily Stewart. She's covered all the points relating to the cost of manufacturing. Cost is important and yet there are some additionally important reasons why US companies have found it beneficial to design here and manufacture elsewhere, mostly covered under the titles "environmental standards" and "labor standards."

 

Using Foxconn plants in China, India and Vietnam, Apple can enjoy a very high ESG score even when a computed supply chain ESG for the Iphone may in fact not be as high. A quick read of Apple's corporate ESG report shows them distinguishing between corporate and supply chain metrics. They can make higher claims about one than they can the other.

 

[CrossRhodes]

Reading this and knowing that the production staff was layed off shortly after doesn’t make me an InMusic fan:
 

The recent conversations that I've had with inMusic CEO Jack O'Donnell have been inspiring, to say the least. Jack shared with me the stories of his first synthesizer, a Moog modular system, and the impact this instrument and Bob's vision have had on his career. We had the opportunity to host Jack at the Moog factory recently and share with him the passion and dedication our small team brings to our work daily. 

We are excited to introduce you to the many innovative hardware and software instruments our team has on the horizon. This partnership with inMusic will allow us to reach new communities and continue to push the boundaries of music technology. Finding a partner that honors our values, mission, and legacy is a great boon for our company and community.  

The future is bright for Moog and the incredible community that has embraced our instruments and all we stand for. We’re grateful for your loyalty and support along the way, and we can’t wait for you to see (and hear) all that’s ahead. 

 

Sincerely, 

Joe Richardson
President, Moog Music

I suppose if you’re high up the food chain and they’re your new business daddy then you have to smile through it. I felt a real connection to the Asheville factory and employees during Moog purchases in the past but appears those days are over. It’s a bummer imagining the Moog employees hosting O’Donnell and displaying their “passion and dedication” knowing the whole time he was just sharpening the axe. 

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, CrossRhodes said:

Reading this and knowing that the production staff was layed off shortly after doesn’t make me an InMusic fan:
 

[blah blah] inspiring [blah blah] passion and dedication [blah blah] innovative [blah] partnership [blah] communities [blah] push the boundaries [blah blah] values, mission, and legacy [blah blah] future [blah blah] loyalty and support [blah blah]

Standard meaningless corporate drivel. Roughly translated: "I've made big money from my share options, so I literally can't bring myself to care about the rest of you".

 

Cheers, Mike.

[analogika]

“Hey, it’s not in the contract, but I made him promise to keep this company alive, because you’ve done great work and it would be a shame if it never made it to the market. I’m busy convincing myself he’s not an asshole, and I hope you don’t blame me.”

[analogika]